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What now for NH rugby?

Put France aside and I doubt its the sort of money you're envisaging. In the premiership they have to fit within our salary cap. Which has actually constrained our ability to really compete with the French sides which in itself is proof of the difference between France and England.

But also I just don't think you should be so surprised that players want to play overseas. The guys you mention have spent most of their careers in south Africa..... No offence but south Africa isn't the centre of the world, and why wouldn't you want to try playing in Europe where rugby is a bit different, leagues are pretty good, lifestyle good too, show your family a different part of the world.

just because the top springboks can command a food wage abroad doesn't mean its all about the money or that this has affected how good we are.

besides which look at the home nations' clubs and you will find they are predominantly playing home nations players

The Pound is currently 1:23 to the South African Rand! Any player in South Africa playing in the UK will pocket a lot more money than what he would in SA, no matter how you slice it.

If I had the opportunity I would have gone abroad too, to work and make a decent salary, and yes, South Africa isn't the centre of the world, but for a South African Rugby Player, becoming a Springbok is the centre of HIS world. And it's becoming harder and harder to become one. It's not all about the money, I agree, but it is the main focus point, otherwise these top players could just as well have gone to Spain, Portugal or any other nation that is trying to get Rugby off the ground and willing to pay top Dollar.

The keyword though is predominantly home players. Whereas in South Africa, european players are damn near non-existant.
 
You sure about that??

because I seem to remember the All Blacks winning in 2011 with their 4th choice flyhalf who had to be called in from a fishing trip in the bush.

After 2007 the all blacks approached the tournament well aware that injuries happen... They have to be ready and able to deal with it.

Yep I'm sure, just remember who Donald was surrounded by. But you're right, squads need to develop experience to cover injuries and suspensions, but NZ would have struggled losing Retallick, McCaw, Kaino and Carter which was effectively what happened to Ire.

Take a look at the starting XV caps from the weekend:

NZ 988
AUS 818
WAL 702
SA 686
IRE 684
FRA 553
ARG 496
SCO 430

And within these, the likes of Lamont, Mealamu, du Plessis etc were sitting on benches.

In contrast ENG fielded less than 450 against WAL and AUS.

That level of experience helps explain why the winner will come from one of the big 3 SH teams.

Unlike Lancaster, NZ realised the need for that experience in RWCs hence Carter & McCaw's sabbaticals.

The one time ENG had that level of experience was in 2003.....

Much more to it of course, but you don't win these things with greenhorns.
 
Luckily it dropped to 20.40ish now, Hein. Hopefully it'll go back to something like 18. Can you believe that? We're HOPING for 18 for a pound..
 
Twickenham is the evidence, it works for the english (I'm not even saying of copying perfectly, I'm talking about the concept), there are events all along the year in this stadium. I'm not even disscussing about the specific project in Essone or anywwhere lese, I do not care, it is you who just went all bersek on this. I'm discussing about the idea to have a way to make more money and having a stadium is a good Idea, I do not care where it is built as long as it is working. But no, for guys like you, everything that comes from the FFR is a bad idea anyway, the 30 men squad ? bad idea. the stadium ? bad idea. surely, we will have better days with guys like you. Only negativity and narrow mind, typical french club supporters from his small region. This is what kill the national rugby in France.

Who says the new stadium is being financed like TW was?! You don't even know what you're talking about.

It's the approach/method used by FFr that's being questioned. Not the concept.

And it's already been exposed as a fundamentally flawed implementation. They can build their stadium but not like that. Kapiche?

You're refusing to see the evidence that has surfaced from the S&P downgrade that the project is showing cracks because it is built on shaky financial ground.The union will also go 300M euros into debt as a result, as if the downgrade itself was not bad enough for the region.

If you think all of this is Ok, you're a dope with his head right up FFr's arse.
 
Yep I'm sure, just remember who Donald was surrounded by. But you're right, squads need to develop experience to cover injuries and suspensions, but NZ would have struggled losing Retallick, McCaw, Kaino and Carter which was effectively what happened to Ire.

Take a look at the starting XV caps from the weekend:

NZ 988
AUS 818
WAL 702
SA 686
IRE 684
FRA 553
ARG 496
SCO 430

And within these, the likes of Lamont, Mealamu, du Plessis etc were sitting on benches.

In contrast ENG fielded less than 450 against WAL and AUS.

That level of experience helps explain why the winner will come from one of the big 3 SH teams.

Unlike Lancaster, NZ realised the need for that experience in RWCs hence Carter & McCaw's sabbaticals.

The one time ENG had that level of experience was in 2003.....

Much more to it of course, but you don't win these things with greenhorns.

This is fair enough, but you can't keep picking the same players just to build up their caps if better options are available.

It seems to me that over the last few years, the longer players have remained in the England team the WORSE they have become.

Wood, Robshaw, Cole, Barritt et al have all been stalwarts for several years now, playing more or less whenever they were available.

Are any of them better players for this experience?

I think sometimes we get cause and effect the wrong way around.

It's not that getting lots of caps makes you a great player, it's that being a great player gets you lots of caps.

It's the same with consistency of selection; you won't win games just because you keep picking the same team, but you'll keep picking the same team if you are winning lots of games. But even then, if a new Jonah Lomu emerges just before the world cup, you can't be afraid to pick him ahead of the established man on the basis of experience and consistency.

The key to all of this is surely getting your selection right in the first place, in which case consistency, experience and success will all reinforce each other.
 
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Who says the new stadium is being financed like TW was?! You don't even know what you're talking about.

It's the approach/method used by FFr that's being questioned. Not the concept.

And it's already been exposed as a fundamentally flawed implementation. They can build their stadium but not like that. Kapiche?

You're refusing to see the evidence that has surfaced from the S&P downgrade that the project is showing cracks because it is built on shaky financial ground.The union will also go 300M euros into debt as a result, as if the downgrade itself was not bad enough for the region.

If you think all of this is Ok, you're a dope with his head right up FFr's arse.

You do not read my post. I do not care about this Essonne project, I do not care at all. I care about the idea of building a stadium as it looks like it has worked in many other place to earn money on ticketting systems and other events, how should I write it for you to understand ? It is you who brought up the Essone project (I was not even really aware about it apart that there was a project of a stadium)

For the debt, yes sometimes you have to take risks for something better and you have to borrow to make it happen.

I'm not a professional in building stadium, there are certainly pros and cons about the current project but I'm saying that at least something is moving and it could be positive for the future. I'm not seating on my ass and saying "c'est de la merde, degage, ya rien a voir"
 
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You do not read my post blah blah..........


Exactly what I just said: you don't even know what you're talking about.

I've posted the link to the stadium but instead of reading about it, you're rattling on the same nonsense over & over.

We're well past the idea that looks good on paper. It's funny to think you like the idea of a stadium but when the concept takes shape in the real world you don't want look at it and can't talk about it.

You're a moron. FFr can sell any thing to retards like you. You're just going to gobble up. You like swallowing don't you.

Earlier you couldn't tell Toulouse from Toulon...You're not just colour blind. You're retarded. Get help.

Pauvre abruti.
 
Exactly what I just said: you don't even know what you're talking about.

I've posted the link to the stadium but instead of reading about it, you're rattling on the same nonsense over & over.

We're well past the idea that looks good on paper. It's funny to think you like the idea of a stadium but when the concept takes shape in the real world you don't want look at it and can't talk about it.

You're a moron. FFr can sell any thing to retards like you. You're just going to gobble up. You like swallowing don't you.

Earlier you couldn't tell Toulouse from Toulon...You're not just colour blind. You're retarded. Get help.

Pauvre abruti.

Wow this is frustration ! So people, this is what we have to put up with in France, narrow mind, regionalistic idioty, village mentality, this is why nothing is evolving and nothing is ready to evolve as we have a lot of cases like this one. Only weapon : insults and anger, this is pretty it.
 
Lol guys, relax, is there a war in Toulouse?
Really Barthelemey, builiding a stadium away from all infrastrucutres in the middle of nowhere is incredibly stupid. The only purpose of that is to give money to friends, signing contracts for friends etc.
This stadium uses 600M we must spend elsewhere. In Amateur rugby, wich suffers more and more cuts, in formation, in developpment of rugby in primary schools and colleges, in so many situations.

By the way, maybe TW makes a bit of money , but have you ever seen the prices of it? Rugby still a 10 euro ticket for us.
Look, when came the moment to discuss tv rights, top14 and C+ got caught for unfair association. Beinsport was on purpose left aside,even thou they would have offer 3 times the money of C+.
Stadium is thought the same way. We could make more money, but we need to help few friends of the lions club plougastel.

On a personal level, i dont want another stadium in Ile de france, we have way enuff. It will make the subway and highways even more exepnsive, as for the local taxes, noway.
And no , an association like FFR cannot take "risks" like that, cos the only money coming monthly is hte one of people like you and me, who pay their licenses, tickets to matches etc. YOU are the money they do ****t with.

No democraty in an association leads to this kind of heresy. One or 2 decide what they will do with the money that is not theirs. But they forgot that point.
 
Completely agree. Let's not go mad and write off NH rugby.

There are many reasons why the NH did not do well. My thoughts for what they are worth:

- England did do poorly but that was no shock to those of us who have long called for a decent coaching team. Predictable if you know a bit about the game and didn't get drawn in by the media hype. England under Lancaster with those selections and tactics would have taken a miracle to win this WC. They won't win the next either if no serious changes are made. Agreed little was learned from 2011, the main lesson of which was "get a decent coaching team with real experience and a winning record".

- Wales were crippled by injury. With all due respect getting out of the group was incredible given the state of the squad.

- Ireland clearly could not deal with the loss of O'Connell and Sexton. It seems to have knocked the stuffing out of them. Even a half strength Ireland could and should have easily dealt with Argentina, who are solid but hardly world-beaters. Ireland were the better team but seemed to crumble under the pressure and had a horrible game.

- Scotland played brilliantly and were hugely unlucky.

- Conditions (dry and pretty warm) have produced pitches unlike you would expect. If there had been pouring rain, sleet and a strong wind at Twickenham yesterday Scotland would have won. Conditions and crucially the firm ground have unexpectedly favoured the SH teams.

- Refs have tended (as ever) to give the rub of the green to the SH teams, no bias or anything silly. I'll tried to say what I think here without impugning anyone. I don't for one second think they're biased, I just think there is a subconscious issue. I think there is a general perception of the superiority of SH rugby: superior handling, running game, speed to the breakdown, etc which means refs without meaning to tend to allow more leeway. For example the AB get away with a lot more offside at the breakdown than other teams, I think it's because the ref will assume they are quicker and more aware so might be able to get to the 9 say quicker than a NH player and hence be less liable to penalise. I can't really explain it but it is there, certainly the rub of the green has seemed to favour the SH, for example I saw three likely yellows for Australia yesterday (a neck roll at a ruck - missed, the passage where they gave away several penalties in their red zone and were clearly killing the ball and the late 'tackle' on Hogg at the end). None given. Hooper was inexplicably not sanctioned for his kamikaze charge into Brown in the England game. Yet Maitland gets a yellow for that? Again I'm not for one second suggesting any cheating or bias just some kind of subconscious effect. It's only marginal to results (except Joubert's boo-boo, less said the better!) but you could easily make a case that Barnes was incredibly harsh on Wales in the first half and they struggled after that with the gas running out and being unable to just hold SA off. Scotland could easily have won barring that penalty call. It's very fine lines.

Rewind a year and lots would have assumed Australia were vanishingly unlikely to get through the group, coach had quit, 7 losses in a row, in a shambles, going to play in unfriendly weather conditions, etc. There were serious questions over SA with their defeat to Argentina and poor all round performances. Both those teams have snuck into the semis in reality and it could easily be Wales-NZ and Ireland-Australia. No real need to panic. England have had the worst cup for any number of reasons and are the only NH team which for me need serious action to be taken, but they've needed it for 12 years and have utterly failed to grasp the nettle so I'm not holding my breath.

Excellent post, the only thing I disagree with is that nobody should ever get done for a late tackle on Hogg and I mean ever, I am still incensed by his dive against the Boks and would like to see a new rule in the 6 nations next year - that any team who don't late tackle Hogg be penalised 7 points.
 
This is fair enough, but you can't keep picking the same players just to build up their caps if better options are available.

It seems to me that over the last few years, the longer players have remained in the England team the WORSE they have become.

Wood, Robshaw, Cole, Barritt et al have all been stalwarts for several years now, playing more or less whenever they were available.

Are any of them better players for this experience?

I think sometimes we get cause and effect the wrong way around.

It's not that getting lots of caps makes you a great player, it's that being a great player gets you lots of caps.

It's the same with consistency of selection; you won't win games just because you keep picking the same team, but you'll keep picking the same team if you are winning lots of games. But even then, if a new Jonah Lomu emerges just before the world cup, you can't be afraid to pick him ahead of the established man on the basis of experience and consistency.

The key to all of this is surely getting your selection right in the first place, in which case consistency, experience and success will all reinforce each other.

This. Some players do improve as they get more caps, generally forwards in particular as they learn the dark arts (ie how to cheat and get away with it). For England May, Brown and the Vunipola brothers have all improved as they have gained more caps. There needs to be potential there to start with though and the likes of Barritt and Ashton were never going to be more than consistantly average, their ceiling is simply too low and no amount of caps would change that. Ashton may have functioned better in the current setup with better support lines (something we really need) but ultimately his top end speed, strength, agility and defence were all way below what a world class winger needs.
 
What about the leagues stay the same, however franchises battle it out in one European competition. When the franchises are playing the clubs play a lesser known cup to bring through their youngsters.

Just a thought.
 
Of course it is...

NH have won one World Cup, SH on course for their 7th. Even the coaching, Wales and Scotland who are coached by southerners both did far better than England and France who are coached by northerners. And of course there's the standard of super rugby compared to Aviva prem etc....
 
Am I the only one who is really worried about the noises coming out of Twickenham about their review, or laughing if non English! I agree that neither coaches nor players should have any input as it would be counter-productive and unlikely to be the kind of balanced assessment that is required. I know I have an almost missionary zeal when it comes to the removal of the entire England coaching team but the list of 'reviewers' is hardly inspiring. I have a lot of time for McGeechan as a coach etc but to put him on the board when he's already clearly stated he thinks Lancaster must stay is hardly helpful. I think a whitewash is being prepared with a hatful of excuses "not in the right part of the 'cycle'", "inexperienced", blah, blah ad nauseam. Any review which ends with anything other than a complete clearout is going to give more ammunition to the many fair and well informed commentators on here.
 
Am I the only one who is really worried about the noises coming out of Twickenham about their review, or laughing if non English! I agree that neither coaches nor players should have any input as it would be counter-productive and unlikely to be the kind of balanced assessment that is required. I know I have an almost missionary zeal when it comes to the removal of the entire England coaching team but the list of 'reviewers' is hardly inspiring. I have a lot of time for McGeechan as a coach etc but to put him on the board when he's already clearly stated he thinks Lancaster must stay is hardly helpful. I think a whitewash is being prepared with a hatful of excuses "not in the right part of the 'cycle'", "inexperienced", blah, blah ad nauseam. Any review which ends with anything other than a complete clearout is going to give more ammunition to the many fair and well informed commentators on here.

That's exactly what it'll be. Got that impression as soon as Ritchie and co said they wouldn't be rushing, no knee jerk reactions etc. When in reality and in any other country and almost any other sport the coaches would have been given an archive box to collect their things in.
 
NH have won one World Cup, SH on course for their 7th. Even the coaching, Wales and Scotland who are coached by southerners both did far better than England and France who are coached by northerners. And of course there's the standard of super rugby compared to Aviva prem etc....

Firstly, going one round further isn't "far" better and seeing France got to the quarters along with other 2 leaves your argument void.

Secondly, comparing the premiership to super rugby is like comparing apples with pears. By comparing the it to the European cup would be a lot fairer as it's a cross country competition played out by the best teams.
 
I don't think that it's been particularly disastrous for the NH. Ireland looked the best NH side going into this and while the score looked bad in their QF, I wouldn't make Argentina automatic favourites in a rematch. Scotland nearly beat Oz, but Wales were always going to be up against it with their injuries.

It's England and France's decade long inconsistency that makes the SH look so dominant.
 

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