Where are we?

[dullonien]

First of all, quality post Macado. Agree with pretty much everything in it. I agree that France are despirately missing a solid fly-half to control all that talent in the backline. Michalak isn't the answer, as he's another flamboyant but inconsistent player. On his day he's one of the best attacking outside half, but he can also have shockers. That's where I see the French team as a whole, can and will beat anybody on their day, but will loose to a mediocre team the next.

Wales are currently missing a few top class players. In the pack we're missing a backup tighthead (Eifion Roberts?), an agressive second row (Ian Evans?), a quality blindside (Warberton, Lydiate, Bearman?) and an option of a powerful and destructive openside (Dafydd Jones maybe?). And in the backs, were missing a creative centre (maybe Hook, Henson?) and a backup fullback (Daniel Evans, Tovey?). There are options available (as I've shown in brackets) for all those problems, some still younsters, but still..... All hope is not lost, and it's still possible to build a very good squad by the world cup.

Edit: dany will be banned in 3. 2. 1.....

 

[RC]

I dunno, Macado has had a few too many guinnesses (laced with patriotism for ireland) for my liking. He over estimates ireland's backline on the world stage and how they performed on the whole. BUT! They did get results this year and that is all that matters.

I think EL TK had a cracking summary...and it wasn't long to read either!
Can't go wrong.

 

[King_D'Arcy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Macado @ Nov 30 2009, 12:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Ireland:
For me they are the strongest Northern Hemisphere team at the moment... and if you are from france suck it up... Ireland have a quality backline, possibly the second strongest in world rugby after the all blacks.. In Rob Kearney (Arguably the best 15 in the game) and BOD there is world class while Kieth Earls is a bombshell waiting to explode.. Tommy Bowe runs great lines and in Sexton we may see a world class operator....although this is premature... The big problem for Ireland will be getting the ball to them.. the pack is ok to good in the loose, poor in the scrum but has a world class lineout as shown by their exploits v the boks and Aussies... however Ireland lack a world class openside which is like going to the shop without money in my humble opinion..... The great teams have them and since Ireland dont have one, cannot be considered a great team... or cannot be considered contenders..will do well to get past quaters... a favourable draw maybe!! i can dream![/b]

Ah here! I have to disagree with this openside comment. I personally think Sean O'Brien is a very promising openside. There's no telling how good he'll be come 2011. I think he'll be at the very least a good internstional number 7. I think Ireland finding a new number 3 is the biggest issue. Everywhere else I think the future looks bright enough. Especially based on the performances by Ireland A this year

 

[el_tk]

O'Brien isn't really a traditional ball winning openside though, he's more of a David Wallace back-row hybrid. I think a traditional openside like Scott Gray or David Pocock would compliment Ferris and Heaslip better

 

[Bernard]

Nice talk !


I must agree that on results that Ireland is fairly more convincing and consistent than France , they are much more realistic too . but i liked too the "very , Very" special that i read before . i think we have improved and i do not agree that Lievremont is mad ..but he is french and he dreams of a nice rugby even if you can think that it won't be possible . I do not agree with ur judgement about TD , he is only 23 years old (since one month) and even if he is attacking too much and not alterneting enough with some intelligent kick (like Carter did with perfection) , he will progress and he could become a great opener , an attacking one . jsut a word on michalak : i will be harsh a bit but he had his chances with French team and for me he has never been consistent , not enough to drive France to a world cup so even if TD seems under Michalak , i think he has greater potential and a better mental than michalak . I do not agree that SA was a little opposition on our first match , i think france played a strong and smart match...and i think SA has been worse against Ireland than they have been against France IMHO (i watched all these matchs) . England is not to forget , they have made a quite strong match against AB and i think now that they have defended much better than France did , they had some occasions to score but as France , they made bad choices on crucial moments . they pushed AB to make mistakes , I saw a strong team of England with a little wilkinson for once . For the tournament , it will be open and that is interesting !


Overall AB stays The reference ...we have believed that something changed this year with tri-nations ..but finally no , AB still on the ring with a final nice performance . I'm disapointed by SA , i do not know what to think...Australia always around , not strong as blacks but always able to perform well when giteau is in a big day like against wales . Nothing has changed at the end ...

IMHO the gap between NH and SH is not so big as before . we are more able to fight on basics and maintain a high intensity during 80 minutes . i remember few years ago , it was waterloo or austerlitz (depends if you are english or french ) when we used to play against SH , you knew already that you would take water against AB or Aussies but you did not know when ..and you couldn't do so much things to defend yourself . Ok there has been some rare moment of magic but too rare to be consistent . Today i feel something has changed about that ...maybe i'm wrong ...

 

[ridgerunnersp]

Nice thoughts, very interesting stuff. If Ireland can keep from falling apart like last time around, I'd say they are strong semi-final contenders.

 

[Jer Mac]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RC @ Nov 30 2009, 06:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I dunno, Macado has had a few too many guinnesses (laced with patriotism for ireland) for my liking. He over estimates ireland's backline on the world stage and how they performed on the whole. BUT! They did get results this year and that is all that matters.

I think EL TK had a cracking summary...and it wasn't long to read either!
Can't go wrong. [/b]

Haha....maybe i had but i still believe we have the best backline an irish team has produced in our rugby history... Bar the innovativeness nesss essss!!!!!!!!!! of the aussies i think we are next in line after the all blacks who are so far ahead at the moment they look small!!!!!
In comparison to the other teams out there...
Wales are good but lack invention in midfield..roberts is class but isnt that creative with hand or boot..byrne is good on his day and shane williams is lethal but both stars seemed to be dimming...
England are nowhere because their manager dosent pick creative and talented players (judging on premier league and heineken cup)
France as i have argued lack an outhalf...if they had dan carter then god help us all!!
Springboks kick everything away so we dont know what their backs do...
And Scotland are building but are still abit off the mark...
so when i threw on the bias glasses and looked at it this way i came up with ireland will win the world cup!!!!!!!!!!!!! nah that irelands backline is up there with the best at the moment...

 

[Jer Mac]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (go on the irish @ Nov 30 2009, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Macado @ Nov 30 2009, 12:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ireland:
For me they are the strongest Northern Hemisphere team at the moment... and if you are from france suck it up... Ireland have a quality backline, possibly the second strongest in world rugby after the all blacks.. In Rob Kearney (Arguably the best 15 in the game) and BOD there is world class while Kieth Earls is a bombshell waiting to explode.. Tommy Bowe runs great lines and in Sexton we may see a world class operator....although this is premature... The big problem for Ireland will be getting the ball to them.. the pack is ok to good in the loose, poor in the scrum but has a world class lineout as shown by their exploits v the boks and Aussies... however Ireland lack a world class openside which is like going to the shop without money in my humble opinion..... The great teams have them and since Ireland dont have one, cannot be considered a great team... or cannot be considered contenders..will do well to get past quaters... a favourable draw maybe!! i can dream![/b]

Ah here! I have to disagree with this openside comment. I personally think Sean O'Brien is a very promising openside. There's no telling how good he'll be come 2011. I think he'll be at the very least a good internstional number 7. I think Ireland finding a new number 3 is the biggest issue. Everywhere else I think the future looks bright enough. Especially based on the performances by Ireland A this year
[/b][/quote]
You see i havnt seen enough of him to justify saying he is a quality open side... I hope he will be as he seems the next in line.. i like neil ronan but he seems to get blown out of it at ruck time.. i dont know if there are many other contenders for wallaces jersey at the moment.... and for wallace for all his attributes which are many he is no pocock/smith/mccaw... and i believe we badly need one for the next world cup..

completely agree we are screwed at number 3... we cannot expect hayes to make the next wc.. and as much as buckley has improved he is still miles off it...

 

[Jer Mac]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bernard @ Dec 1 2009, 01:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Nice talk !


I must agree that on results that Ireland is fairly more convincing and consistent than France , they are much more realistic too . but i liked too the "very , Very" special that i read before . i think we have improved and i do not agree that Lievremont is mad ..but he is french and he dreams of a nice rugby even if you can think that it won't be possible . I do not agree with ur judgement about TD , he is only 23 years old (since one month) and even if he is attacking too much and not alterneting enough with some intelligent kick (like Carter did with perfection) , he will progress and he could become a great opener , an attacking one . jsut a word on michalak : i will be harsh a bit but he had his chances with French team and for me he has never been consistent , not enough to drive France to a world cup so even if TD seems under Michalak , i think he has greater potential and a better mental than michalak . I do not agree that SA was a little opposition on our first match ,[/b]

Do you rate Beauxis... to me he seems in more control than trin duc... i wouldnt say i am a fan of damien traille at full back..How come poitrenaud doesnt make the side on a regular basis??????????????????

 

[Wally]

Serious question: have Ireland ever made the semi finals of a world cup?

 

[Jer Mac]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wally @ Dec 2 2009, 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Serious question: have Ireland ever made the semi finals of a world cup?[/b]

No...

that just killed my optimism for the day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bernard]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Macado @ Dec 2 2009, 01:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bernard @ Dec 1 2009, 01:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice talk !


I must agree that on results that Ireland is fairly more convincing and consistent than France , they are much more realistic too . but i liked too the "very , Very" special that i read before . i think we have improved and i do not agree that Lievremont is mad ..but he is french and he dreams of a nice rugby even if you can think that it won't be possible . I do not agree with ur judgement about TD , he is only 23 years old (since one month) and even if he is attacking too much and not alterneting enough with some intelligent kick (like Carter did with perfection) , he will progress and he could become a great opener , an attacking one . jsut a word on michalak : i will be harsh a bit but he had his chances with French team and for me he has never been consistent , not enough to drive France to a world cup so even if TD seems under Michalak , i think he has greater potential and a better mental than michalak . I do not agree that SA was a little opposition on our first match ,[/b]

Do you rate Beauxis... to me he seems in more control than trin duc... i wouldnt say i am a fan of damien traille at full back..How come poitrenaud doesnt make the side on a regular basis??????????????????
[/b][/quote]

beauxis has a little bit more of experience but i think he is not the great opener we are looking for . Good kick for sure but not an attacking opener . Defnitly i do not wish to see him playing in france team , it is certainly a subjective judgement . He had some chances to show himself with french team in the past and as michalak , he has not been very consistent IMO . Another thing about beauxis : he is often injured and i do not think that it is a good point for him . TD is strong physically and mentally and that is important to be able to count on somebody . I guess some other franch poster will have a different view on Beauxis , i know that my view is not shared everywhere in FR ...

For me , Traille , Pointrenaud , rougerie , jauzion (even Heymans or some others..) are from the old generation and i think they do not have the right standard to win a world cup or 2 play consistently most of the time ...most of them have lost 2 times against england in WRC and for me they will never go above that ...

Changing players is not only a question of skills and abilities , changing players is question of mental , fresh mental ...it is a question of players who wants to win , who are motivated adn who come with a fresh mental on some competitions ...and i think the old generation is a bit dead about that ....they can be good (try from heymans in NZ in june for example ) but i think we should move on from these guys if we want to have chance to win the world cup . To be entirely franc , i think Mermoz , DAvid , bastareaud are really prepared for the professional level and the intensity which is required in the today rugby ..as the old generation is a bit limited in my point of view ...

It is my opinion and i know a lot of people won't agree with that

If we talk about Ireland , it is a mix between old and young players that creates the right schema ...We need experience from old players but i think they should only be substitutes ...we need to build for the future and i'm not sure that a 30 years old guy (who has already played 2 semi-final of WRC..) is coming with same want and motivation than a young guy who always have 2 years to gain experience for the world cup ...

 

[wertas]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Macado @ Dec 2 2009, 03:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bernard @ Dec 1 2009, 01:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice talk !


I must agree that on results that Ireland is fairly more convincing and consistent than France , they are much more realistic too . but i liked too the "very , Very" special that i read before . i think we have improved and i do not agree that Lievremont is mad ..but he is french and he dreams of a nice rugby even if you can think that it won't be possible . I do not agree with ur judgement about TD , he is only 23 years old (since one month) and even if he is attacking too much and not alterneting enough with some intelligent kick (like Carter did with perfection) , he will progress and he could become a great opener , an attacking one . jsut a word on michalak : i will be harsh a bit but he had his chances with French team and for me he has never been consistent , not enough to drive France to a world cup so even if TD seems under Michalak , i think he has greater potential and a better mental than michalak . I do not agree that SA was a little opposition on our first match ,[/b]

Do you rate Beauxis... to me he seems in more control than trin duc... i wouldnt say i am a fan of damien traille at full back..How come poitrenaud doesnt make the side on a regular basis??????????????????
[/b][/quote]

Beauxis doesn't attack the line. A le morne steyn, having trouble in defence and zero in attack. Kicking reliable but apart this nothing makes him good fly-half. He was playing fullback when Hernandez was number one fly-half in Stade Francais.

 

[stormmaster1]

England- still have exciting players on the sideline, plus lots of players who do great at club level but zilch at twickenham so they are one of those teams that add up to less than the sum of their parts. With some players back for 6N i could see them making improvements, but can you ever see Borthwick as a world cup or even 6N winning captain?

Ireland- have had promise for a long time. A core group of players have been keeping them strong for years. i agree they have good but not world class 7s and that could be a big thing for them. Key things for them imo are continueing to be stong in the 6N, thenbuild on the SA win by beating 3N teams more over the next 2 years before the WC. This would be the key thing for me in giving them confidence going into the world cup. they've consistantly been one of the top 6N teams, but really need to continue beating 3N teams to be seen as wc contenders.

Australia- i wouldn't be surprised if they win in 2011. not long ago they had a weedy front 5 and could get pushed about the park. now the scrum is strong and they are awesome at times at the breakdown- quick ball and turnovers meaning they get opportunities even when they don't control the ball for too long. very inventive backline. they aren't the complete side yet, but could easily improve further. i suspect the loss to scotland could have taught them a valuable lesson.

in terms of where we are looking towards the world cup, i think we can learn alot from scotlands win ovewr australia. if a team is really well organised in defence and the opposition aren't quite clinical enough to make their superiority count then there is always a chance of an upset. The reason this is important is that Ireland, England, France and (usually) Wales all have good defensive schemes, enough for them always to be in with a chance of an upset, maybe not of winning the wc, but of knocking out a fancied 3N team

 

[Jer Mac]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stormmaster1 @ Dec 3 2009, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

England- still have exciting players on the sideline, plus lots of players who do great at club level but zilch at twickenham so they are one of those teams that add up to less than the sum of their parts. With some players back for 6N i could see them making improvements, but can you ever see Borthwick as a world cup or even 6N winning captain?

Ireland- have had promise for a long time. A core group of players have been keeping them strong for years. i agree they have good but not world class 7s and that could be a big thing for them. Key things for them imo are continueing to be stong in the 6N, thenbuild on the SA win by beating 3N teams more over the next 2 years before the WC. This would be the key thing for me in giving them confidence going into the world cup. they've consistantly been one of the top 6N teams, but really need to continue beating 3N teams to be seen as wc contenders.

Australia- i wouldn't be surprised if they win in 2011. not long ago they had a weedy front 5 and could get pushed about the park. now the scrum is strong and they are awesome at times at the breakdown- quick ball and turnovers meaning they get opportunities even when they don't control the ball for too long. very inventive backline. they aren't the complete side yet, but could easily improve further. i suspect the loss to scotland could have taught them a valuable lesson.

in terms of where we are looking towards the world cup, i think we can learn alot from scotlands win ovewr australia. if a team is really well organised in defence and the opposition aren't quite clinical enough to make their superiority count then there is always a chance of an upset. The reason this is important is that Ireland, England, France and (usually) Wales all have good defensive schemes, enough for them always to be in with a chance of an upset, maybe not of winning the wc, but of knocking out a fancied 3N team[/b]

I just think at the moment the English are really caught up in the politics of the game... watching sky rugby club and reading a few of their insightful pundits, they seem to be gearing towards axeing the rfu and johnson.. while they just in return seem to be retaliating with "we are building and improving andno one knows us"
It is a pity for them that someone isnt grabbing the whole thing by the scruff of the neck and saying lets just play abit of rugby here... and let the results take care of themselves.. but from an outside perspective it seems there is a whole war going on.. They certainly have some tenacious players behind the scrum.. like cipriani (i know has lost form but would ya blame him) foden, ashton, Armitage(tore up the 6n last year) wilkonson has prooven ability... and they will always produce a pack... i would still fear them..they seem to have a knack for peaking for the w.c when you consider they couldve won the last one and won the previous one... i wouldnt ride them off but in my honest opinion they need to sort out whos in charge and what direction they are goin with regards style of play..

Ireland are definately in the top 5 at the moment and to be fair the strength and depth is really improving but i would like to see a new open side introduced during the 6n that might offer soemthing going into 2011. you are right about a core group of players. someone mentioned in some other post about ireland being like wales in that we acnnot loose some players through injury and while i feel that is true in part, it is not as bad as in previous years.. alot done, alot more to do in my opinion if we are to get out of the groups and into the semis.. australia are in our group and the carrot of topping that would be wales in the quarter..come 2nd and we have springboks in the quarter..neither and easy task.. but with no offense to the welsh im sure the irish would rather meet them..

Australia for me are the team to watch, not only because they are in our group but because as many people have eluded to, are building something special.. just look at their backrow.. elsom (worlds best 6 in my opinion and up ther as one of the best in the world this year), pocok (kid looks unbelievable, a star in the making ) and Palu (a killer at the back of the scrum). they will terrorise teams from now on.. plus their front row is dynmaic and skillfull and good at scrummage.. then behind the scrum they are lethal from all over the paddock..great halfbacks and genuine quality in midfield and out wide. i will throw a side bet on em for definate.. throw in the fact that unlike the all blacks they peak for this tournament.. the all blacks will get caught up in the hype and pressure of hosting the tournament meaning they are well susceptible again this time out.. As you rightly said, not the complete side yet, will learn valuable lessons along the way but come 2011 could be the peoples favourites!!

 

[shtove]

Good post, Macado - but you left out Italy. Agree with most of it.

England are asleep, but I reckon Johnson just wants to get the gearbox fixed - after that it's anyone's guess if he can deliver power to the wheels. Is he looking to play a Saffer style game? If so, he may be too late because the Saffers are beginning to spread it wide. They played well against Ireland in the first half - did the grind, but released the ball out wide a few times just when it was needed to expose big defensive gaps. I expect they'll develop on that, but England have the potential to catch up.

So my guess is England and SA for 2011, playing heavy duty up front and relying on an experienced outhalf (who could that be, I wonder?) to release huge overlaps.

p.s. I think you're spot on about Aus - favourite team at the moment. They have a good rhythm and quality in every part of the game.