Which are the 2nd and 3rd direct opponents on the field?

[icsulescool]

Hi.
From what I know, the direct opponents in rugby union for each position are: #1 -> #3, #2 -> #2, #3 -> #1, #4 -> #5, #5 -> #4, #6 -> #7, #7 -> #6, #8 -> #8, #9 -> #9, #10 -> #10, #11 -> #14, #12 -> #13, #13 -> #12, #14 -> #11, #15 -> #15. So, I guess that usually no. 1 will tackle no. 3 and so on. Of course, during the game players don't always stay in their ideal position on the field and often the direct opponents aren't those I wrote above (btw, are they all correct?).

Which are the second and the third direct opponents for each position? If the opponent flyhalf will miss the tackle who will try to tackle (most often)? Maybe for some positions isn't a "pattern", but for those where it is, I would like to know ...

 

[dullonien]

Not quite all correct.

In the scrum 6 is always opposite the other 6, and 7 opposite the other 7 (unless we're talking about France and SA). This is because both 6's (blindsides) are situated on the blindside of the scrum (the side closest to the touchline), and both 7's (opensides) are situated on the openside of the scrum.

France play with left and right flankers, so if two French sides are playing against each other it will be 6 v 7, and 7 v 6. If France are playing against another nation, then who faces who will depend on where the scrum is taking place on the field.

South Africa have their numbers muddled, and as such their blindside wears 7, and their openside wears 6.

In the backline, 12 marks 12, and 13 marks 13.

 

[smartcooky]

Hi.
From what I know, the direct opponents in rugby union for each position are: #1 -> #3, #2 -> #2, #3 -> #1, #4 -> #5, #5 -> #4, #6 -> #7, #7 -> #6, #8 -> #8, #9 -> #9, #10 -> #10, #11 -> #14, #12 -> #13, #13 -> #12, #14 -> #11, #15 -> #15. So, I guess that usually no. 1 will tackle no. 3 and so on. Of course, during the game players don't always stay in their ideal position on the field and often the direct opponents aren't those I wrote above (btw, are they all correct?).

Which are the second and the third direct opponents for each position? If the opponent flyhalf will miss the tackle who will try to tackle (most often)? Maybe for some positions isn't a "pattern", but for those where it is, I would like to know ...

That can be a complicated issue depending on which phase of play is being talked about. #9 -> #9, #10 -> #10, #11 -> #14, #12 -> #13, #13 -> #12, #14 -> #11, #15 -> #15 is not always true.

When a team is operating a "sliding defence", the numbers can be shifted over by one, so that 12 is defending 10, 13 is defending 12. Its different again for a "rush defence" (also called "blitz defence")

http://www.ruckingball.com/2011/03/which-defencive-system/

There has been a relatively recent innovation of combining the two, where the majority of the back-line slides, while a single player, usually out wide, rushes up to cut off the pass in case the attacking team succeed in beating the slide with a skip pass or very quick passing.

Sometimes at scrums you will also see the non-feeding scrumhalf, rather than defend his opposing 9, rush away from the scrum to defend the opposing 10.

And, of course, there are the times when the 15 comes into the backline, his opposing 15 rarely, if ever comes in to defend against him.

 

[j'nuh]

Yeah, I wouldn't read too much into "player rivalries". Loosehead vs tighthead is uniquely developed by scrum battles. The fly-half and fullback vs. fly-half and fullback battle is also an important one, as fly-halves and fullbacks oppose each other in the kicking duel (fullback works with wingers to limit the space that the opponent's fly-half can kick into). Wingers may also form a rivalry as they often commit themselves to a particular wing, and face each other in backline moves.

But for example, it isn't always as clear as scrum-half vs. scrum-half. In attack, scrum-halves either pass, boxkick or dart around fringes against generally forwards, whereas the defensive 9 is generally sweeping behind the defensive line to avoid chips from the fly-half or inside center and to plug gaps in the defensive line, so the 9s rarely bump into each other. And 8s will actively avoid running into opposite 8s as they want to carry at the most fragile player they can find. Fly-halves generally have to worry about flankers chasing them down.

The best example I can think of of a cross-positional rivalry was... back in 2009, Jamie Roberts, the ball-crashing centre, was probably in the form of his life. It was the year that he won player of the Lions series. His front-foot ball was vital to the Welsh game plan. England countered it in the Six Nations by having Joe Worsley, an English flanker, follow Roberts around the field and contain him the best he could. Although England still lost, I vaguely remember how well Worsley did at shutting Roberts out of the game.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

And let's not forget, different countries have different no's assigned to certain positions.

France has their lose forwards categorized left 6, middle 8, right 7
South Africa has it like this: Open-side 6, middle 8, blind-side 7
The rest of the world has the exact opposite of SA: Blind side 6, middle 8, open-side 7


Not 100% sure about the French thing so correct me if I'm wrong, please.

 

[sifplay]

Hi.From what I know, the direct opponents in rugby union for each position are: #1 -> #3, #2 -> #2, #3 -> #1, #4 -> #5, #5 -> #4, #6 -> #7, #7 -> #6, #8 -> #8, #9 -> #9, #10 -> #10, #11 -> #14, #12 -> #13, #13 -> #12, #14 -> #11, #15 -> #15. So, I guess that usually no. 1 will tackle no. 3 and so on. Of course, during the game players don't always stay in their ideal position on the field and often the direct opponents aren't those I wrote above (btw, are they all correct?).Which are the second and the third direct opponents for each position? If the opponent flyhalf will miss the tackle who will try to tackle (most often)? Maybe for some positions isn't a "pattern", but for those where it is, I would like to know ...

From set piece? In case of NZ and Wales its 12->10

And let's not forget, different countries have different no's assigned to certain positions.France has their lose forwards categorized left 6, middle 8, right 7South Africa has it like this: Open-side 6, middle 8, blind-side 7The rest of the world has the exact opposite of SA: Blind side 6, middle 8, open-side 7

French plays with 2 open sides a lot

 

[dullonien]

French plays with 2 open sides a lot

Nah, they play right and left. They don't distinguish between openside and blindside, and as such both flankers share much of the workload. I suppose both could be seen as 6.5's if we want to compare them to the more commonly used openside and blindside.

I think it used to be much more common to play right and left flankers, and the role of openside and blindside flankers is a more modern set-up.

 

[sifplay]

Nah, they play right and left. They don't distinguish between openside and blindside, and as such both flankers share much of the workload. I suppose both could be seen as 6.5's if we want to compare them to the more commonly used openside and blindside.

I think it used to be much more common to play right and left flankers, and the role of openside and blindside flankers is a more modern set-up.

6 and 7 are just numbers. So is openside and blindside just a side of the scrum. Work rate have nothing to do with a position but with a individual player. We call them openside and blindside and you can't distinguish between them physically as they do not have the big guy smaller guy thing going on. Both are equal in size thats all.

 

[Peat]

I'd also point out that while 4s will push against 5s in the scrum (with props in the way obviously), when it comes to the lineout 4s are more likely to complete with 4s and 5s with 5s.

But really, trying to read rugby as individual duels always comes up with a very misleading sense of the game, particularly in the loose. Fly-halves don't, as a rule, want to interfere with other fly-halves. When defending, they tend to drift out and let the flankers try and cream them. In attack, fly-halves are either distributing, looking for a gap with no one there, or looking for a tight five forward to create the mis-match with.

I'd say the centres are the closest thing to a true personal duel outside the set-piece, as they'll usually be attacking each other in open play.

 

[icsulescool]

But really, trying to read rugby as individual duels always comes up with a very misleading sense of the game, particularly in the loose.

I am developing an online rugby union manager game and I need to find some "patterns" in order to increase the tactical decisions of the users who play. I understand that those patterns don't always work, but at least for some positions (centers and wings) they might work.

Anyway, thankyou all for the answers. TRF community is great .

 

[dullonien]

6 and 7 are just numbers. So is openside and blindside just a side of the scrum. Work rate have nothing to do with a position but with a individual player. We call them openside and blindside and you can't distinguish between them physically as they do not have the big guy smaller guy thing going on. Both are equal in size thats all.

There can often be big differences between an openside and a blindside, especially when it comes to their roles in both attack and defence. Because opensides are positioned on the openside of the scrum, where the most space is, this is usually the direction the ball will be released, and thus the openside must cover the ground quickly to help defend the fringe of the scrum or 10 channel; or quickly get in a position to support the 8 or the backline in attack. Conversely, the blindside usually has less space to defend from the scrum, and there's less chance of his team attacking in that direction.

So this can translate into different roles, where the blindside becomes more of a destructive force, concentrating on defence and carrying, whilst the openside is a little quicker and becomes a real link man on the side.

Of course this isn't always the case, and scrums only make up a small proportion of game time in a match, but it is still the scrum that's the reason we differentiate between the two.

Dan Lydiate and Justin Tipuric are good examples a genuine blindside and a genuine openside. Lydiate is the workhorse, he tackles, he hits rucks, and he carries close to the rucks. Tipuric on the other hand rely's on his pace, and plays a much more open type of game, linking play and getting into wider channels.

What I'm trying to say is that whilst the difference between an openside and blindside is what side of the scrum they pack down on, this does translate into different roles elsewhere on the pitch. Because France employ a left and right flanker system, there will be less differences in their roles, because both need to be effective on both the openside and blindside of the scrum, so they will be more likely to share the carrying, defending, jackling and link play.

 

[Jaguares]

12 vs 12 and 13 vs 13

 

[sifplay]

There can often be big differences between an openside and a blindside, especially when it comes to their roles in both attack and defence. Because opensides are positioned on the openside of the scrum, where the most space is, this is usually the direction the ball will be released, and thus the openside must cover the ground quickly to help defend the fringe of the scrum or 10 channel; or quickly get in a position to support the 8 or the backline in attack. Conversely, the blindside usually has less space to defend from the scrum, and there's less chance of his team attacking in that direction.

So this can translate into different roles, where the blindside becomes more of a destructive force, concentrating on defence and carrying, whilst the openside is a little quicker and becomes a real link man on the side.

Of course this isn't always the case, and scrums only make up a small proportion of game time in a match, but it is still the scrum that's the reason we differentiate between the two.

Dan Lydiate and Justin Tipuric are good examples a genuine blindside and a genuine openside. Lydiate is the workhorse, he tackles, he hits rucks, and he carries close to the rucks. Tipuric on the other hand rely's on his pace, and plays a much more open type of game, linking play and getting into wider channels.

What I'm trying to say is that whilst the difference between an openside and blindside is what side of the scrum they pack down on, this does translate into different roles elsewhere on the pitch. Because France employ a left and right flanker system, there will be less differences in their roles, because both need to be effective on both the openside and blindside of the scrum, so they will be more likely to share the carrying, defending, jackling and link play.

Yes again its a side of the scrum. The role will solely depend on the player. How many steals to top international jacklers make a game? 1 to 2. Only Australia gets wet dreams with things like pilfers and and a guy running around trying to steal ball for 80 these days. Other teams use any player for that you will see 2nd on the list for steals in the SR comp is a center.

12 vs 12 and 13 vs 13

 

[Peat]

The only things an openside and blindside HAVE to do is based solely on their duties from a scrum - mainly defensive, but sometimes attacking. Everything else is either convention, or extrapolations of what else someone in that role will be good at. But there are conventions now of what each side does, and French flankers by and large don't fit them. I'd say it's very rare to see France line up with what the rest of the world would regard as two opensides.

I'd also disagree with the idea that opensides and blindsides are physically identical. Virtually everywhere the openside is smaller.

 

[dasNdanger]

Hmmm...if you're talking about who usually tackles who...I didn't think there was a straight out rule on that. I suppose if everyone strictly stays in position then, hypothetically, a defender would tackle the man opposite him, but often a ball carrier will bob and weave and aim for a gap and then it's up to the nearest player to stop him, no matter who that is. I think the only one who always has a direct opponent when it comes to the tackle is the fullback... which would translate to something like this: 15-> 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 & 15...since if he doesn't stop whichever one slips through, no one will. ;-)


das

 

[sifplay]

The only things an openside and blindside HAVE to do is based solely on their duties from a scrum - mainly defensive, but sometimes attacking. Everything else is either convention, or extrapolations of what else someone in that role will be good at. But there are conventions now of what each side does, and French flankers by and large don't fit them. I'd say it's very rare to see France line up with what the rest of the world would regard as two opensides.

I'd also disagree with the idea that opensides and blindsides are physically identical. Virtually everywhere the openside is smaller.

Smaller in what terms? On tv? The guy might be taller but it doesn't say he packs more beef.

EvtecHs Build Factor (EBF) is a measure of how "stocky", how well built (beefy) a player is. It combines height and weight together.

EBF is derived from the height and weight of any given player and gives an idea of what type of build is required for the various positions.

Work out your own EBF.

Divide your weight(kg) by your height(cm), then multiply by 1000.

EBF H-met W-met H-imp lbs st-lb Player name
=== === ===== ===== ===== ========= ===========
572 187cm 107kg 6' 2" 236 16s12 Cru Rich McCaw
568 192cm 109kg 6' 4" 240 17s 2 Hur Vict Vito
575 193cm 111kg 6' 4" 245 17s 7 Stm Scha Burger
562 194cm 109kg 6' 4" 240 17s 2 Luatua,Steven
568 190cm 108kg 6' 3" 238 17s 0 Messam,Liam
555 182cm 101kg 6' 0" 223 15s13 Hooper,Michael
549 195cm 107kg 6' 5" 236 16s12 Mowen,Ben
522 184cm 96 kg 6' 0" 212 15s 2 Gill,Liam

 

[Peat]

Smaller as in shorter and weighs less.

 

[sifplay]

Smaller as in shorter and weighs less.

Is that weight fat or muscle? Look at McCaw and Vito. McCaw shorter and weigh 2 kg's less but pack more meat

 

[Peat]

a) Irrelevant. If I say someone is smaller than another dude because they are shorter and lighter than them, it's a correct usage of the English language.

b) You're wrong in saying McCaw packs more meat. He has more muscle relative to his frame; he does not, in all probability, have more muscle altogether. And I'd put money on Vito being the stronger man.

c) Trying to argue there's no physical difference by using the biggest openside and the smallest blindside you can find is disingenuous as anything. Vito is still bigger, Kaino is even bigger than both, as will Luatua be in a couple of years, as is Brad Shields.

d) The fact that opensides are often more physically compact due to being shorter and stockier is a physical difference.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Sif, have you not noticed who the Bok's first choice flankers are right now?