Who is England 12?

[goodNumber10]

he played 13 in the AI's don't forget, we're talking about 12, can you give me an example where Barritts decision making/hands ruined an attack?

So Eastmonds amazing passing has resulted in one scoring opportunity that wasn't taken in 6 outings?

The point is playing 12 isn't always about incredible passing, but about solid effective passing, Barritt is a solid distributor he won't fire those passes that unlock a defence from out of nowhere, but few world class 12's do this. He'll distribute at teh right time, to the mans hands and take the ball into contact when a defence is shutting a move down.

If someone can i'd like to see Barritt butchering a scoring opportunity with his poor attacking.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

he played 13 in the AI's don't forget, we're talking about 12, can you give me an example where Barritts decision making/hands ruined an attack?

So Eastmonds amazing passing has resulted in one scoring opportunity that wasn't taken in 6 outings?

The point is playing 12 isn't always about incredible passing, but about solid effective passing, Barritt is a solid distributor he won't fire those passes that unlock a defence from out of nowhere, but few world class 12's do this. He'll distribute at teh right time, to the mans hands and take the ball into contact when a defence is shutting a move down.

If someone can i'd like to see Barritt butchering a scoring opportunity with his poor attacking.

I know you love to be controversial but what are you actually looking for in a 12?

Because the problem a lot of people have with barritt is that he doesn't have amazing hands, or a step, or a turn of pace or a bosh ability.

We all know that he is the definition of average but we should be looking at someone who's more than average.

Is there any other position in the history of English rugby that has been so debated since greenwood retired?

 

[yaboyjj]

did he?

And compared to who? certainly not 36, Eastmond and Burrell who all squandered scoring opportunities by going alone or giving poor passes.

To be fair our three greatest attacking performances came with Farrell and Barritt (NZ) Farrell and 36 (Italy) and Ford and Burrell (France).

I hardly think we can attribute the 'great attacking performance' against NZ, to Farrell and Barritt- England had front foot ball all match and Tuilagi was a man possessed, Barritt only had to run through a hole 10m wide, draw and pass for that second try- he almost managed to fudge that, it was only a miracle (lucky) offload from Tuilagi that made the try.
Italy on the last day of the 6 nations tend not to be great indicators of form either.
I'm sure I posted a highlight reel of a match a couple of years ago (England v France maybe?) where Barritt blew several opportunities because he took the ball into contact rather than pass- fact is, his vision, passing game and running threat are minimal- lets just take him at face value, which is that he will shore up the defence- but will likely stifle up a few attacking moves in the process.

 

[goodNumber10]

England had front foot ball all match.

i'm just going to stop you there.

Because this is the entire point, if England generate front foot ball all of our 12's are effective. It's the same for pretty much every team in the world, and this is the issue, England haven't been generating front foot ball.

Can you post that video again (genuinely interested)?

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I know you love to be controversial but what are you actually looking for in a 12?

Because the problem a lot of people have with barritt is that he doesn't have amazing hands, or a step, or a turn of pace or a bosh ability.

We all know that he is the definition of average but we should be looking at someone who's more than average.

Is there any other position in the history of English rugby that has been so debated since greenwood retired?

It's not about being controversial it's about understanding that a player with strong core skills is better than a player who can pass but can't tackle, or can tackle and can't pass. It's about Balance but people forget that at the expense of someone who "can pass good".

Barritt is a very well balanced player, his passing is more than adequate for the role he plays within the England team and ontop of that he brings great decision making, superb defence and a brilliant kick chase. He's the most complete center currently in the EPS even if he doesn't tick your "he must thread a pass through a needle" boxes.

People make wild accusations about certain players but seldom can back it up with genuine facts - and i think 99% of the time with players like Barritt and Farrell people only really watch for their errors, whereas with guys like Eastmond they look only for the brilliance.

 

[TheSaffycen]

At 2.27 his hands to put Tuilagi into space when Cummins had shut down the simple pass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2Rq8DM4Eac
And finally this video, Barritt draws the man and gives the pass for 2 try assist v Clermont

 

[yaboyjj]

i'm just going to stop you there.

Because this is the entire point, if England generate front foot ball all of our 12's are effective. It's the same for pretty much every team in the world, and this is the issue, England haven't been generating front foot ball.
Yes, I absolutely agree, I was just pointing out the fact that this was the case in those matches- however sometimes you have to win matches without lots of front-foot ball, and you need players who can break the line, work around a defence with slick passing etc

Can you post that video again (genuinely interested)?
I think I posted it in one of the 6 nations match threads- I'll try to dig it up

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It's not about being controversial it's about understanding that a player with strong core skills is better than a player who can pass but can't tackle, or can tackle and can't pass. It's about Balance but people forget that at the expense of someone who "can pass good".

Barritt is a very well balanced player, his passing is more than adequate for the role he plays within the England team and ontop of that he brings great decision making, superb defence and a brilliant kick chase. He's the most complete center currently in the EPS even if he doesn't tick your "he must thread a pass through a needle" boxes.

I do think he could do a job between Ford and Joseph- and that would be my preference over 36/Burrell/Farrell

 

[goodNumber10]

however sometimes you have to win matches without lots of front-foot ball, and you need players who can break the line, work around a defence with slick passing etc

do you though?

I can't think of many big matches where that kind of player has actually won it? Has any world cup final come down to a brilliant piece of attacking play?

In knock out rugby I can only think of the Aus/Ireland QF in 1991 as being one that was decided like that.

Rugby above all other sports is one where the team wins out over individual brilliance, where was Ford, Joseph et al in the Ireland game?

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I do think he could do a job between Ford and Joseph- and that would be my preference over 36/Burrell/Farrell

exactly, i'm not arguing he's as good as A; B: or C; at passing, kicking, stepping etc... but within the England set up he is a very good and important building block for a potentially winning side.

 

[Peat]

He only ever lost his place because of injury.

Players who always get their shirt back when genuinely fit (or a sub spot if remotely fit) do not, imo, lost their England place. Or, to put it another way, we are talking about their place in the hierarchy. Tuilagi was bolted on 13 (until this 6N anyway) and despite regular injuries, came straight back in every time. Barritt was bolted on 12 - except now he's not and the player he's in competition for that honour with are basically, international mediocrities. Struggling for a shirt with Burrell and Twelvetrees isn't a good look.

Yes, Barritt has had injuries, but he didn't lose his place because of them. He didn't lose his place due to genuinely great competition. Brad Barritt has lost his place because Lancaster prefers other players a fair bit of the time. George Kruis lost his place to Lawes and Parling despite doing a decent job this 6N. Barritt couldn't do the same thing to Burrell and Twelvetrees. To me, that is pretty big proof of Barritt's current standing in the England squad, his current place, and it says he's not the bolted on player he was back in 2013.

And, while I can't prove it, my bet is its because he is a godawful ball carrier for an international 12 - hence my assertion that if he could do it as well as Burrell, he'd never have lost his place and he would still be bolted on 12. Never ever. Well, not to date anyway.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/35569.php#OsM3mKLlKL3JxrO9.97

Devoto has declared himself an inside centre. Not sure this makes him any more likely as a bolter, but it does make him a more secure prospect for the future.

 

[Every Time Ref]

He may have been the last person in the country to realise he's not a fly-half. Glad he's finally got there!

I think Mike Ford probably deserves some credit for man management there, Devoto playing so poorly in his own declared best position (10) could have destroyed him psychologically; to see him moved to his actual best position and play as well as he did against Newcastle I think reflects well on his coach.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I don't really see what Bath were doing at one point. They effectively had a very good inside centre (Eastmond), someone who should been an inside centre, and now he's tried it, it turns out he's very good there (Devoto) and then spent millions on trying to get another (Burgess). Good thing they've now moved Burgess to flanker.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I wouldn't mind Eastmond at Leicester TBH.

Think a 3/4ers line of

9) Youngs, 10) Burns
12) Eastmond, 13) Manu

Has real potential to grow

When is he out of contract?

 

[yaboyjj]

I don't really see what Bath were doing at one point. They effectively had a very good inside centre (Eastmond), someone who should been an inside centre, and now he's tried it, it turns out he's very good there (Devoto) and then spent millions on trying to get another (Burgess). Good thing they've now moved Burgess to flanker.

I'm pretty sure Burgess to flanker is not a new idea, and that Mike Ford bought him over with the intention of playing him there.

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I wouldn't mind Eastmond at Leicester TBH.

Think a 3/4ers line of

9) Youngs, 10) Burns
12) Eastmond, 13) Manu

Has real potential to grow

When is he out of contract?

End of next season I think- it will be interesting to see how Devoto develops, I don't see how they can continue to keep both happy at once. I thought that Devoto might be the one to move on at some point to pin down a starting role- I expect that Bath will be keen to keep both, but now that Priestland is arriving, its a straight shoot out for game time at IC. Quins must be looking out for a new centre too with Roberts out of the equation...
Is Mauger not bring over any IC's from NZ? I'm sure there are some academy boys coming through... Catchpole and Roberts I think?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

No 12's linked other than Mermoz ATM.

Crotty is out of contract though but if Nonu off he might stay.

Roberts is promising but still raw.

Catchpole is very much a 13 he can play wing but he hasn't played 12.

Edit: Ollie Bryant is certainly one to watch though at 12 20 ATM plays 10 aswell.

 

[yaboyjj]

No 12's linked other than Mermoz ATM.

Crotty is out of contract though but if Nonu off he might stay.

Roberts is promising but still raw.

Catchpole is very much a 13 he can play wing but he hasn't played 12.

I can foresee some pressure from England in the future to play Tuilagi at IC more if JJ keeps up his form- (like it or not), certainly if Leicester can keep him fit, they are only another quality centre away from a very dangerous backline.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

If think he will prob play at 12 for England sometime I just can't see Leicester doing that.

Although maybe Mauger will pass on his trade of being a playmaking centre to him.

Stranger things have happened.

 

[yaboyjj]

If think he will prob play at 12 for England sometime I just can't see Leicester doing that.

Although maybe Mauger will pass on his trade of being a playmaking centre to him.

Stranger things have happened.

Here's hoping- still waiting for the Nonu-esque transformation.
Maybe you could return the favour and nab Stephenson off Northampton- he looks like a good player and will probably find it hard maneuvering past Burrell (what with the Lanky endorsement )

 

[majorb]

So SB has made the cut for the 50 man WC squad. We all know he has little game experience in general, but considering the vast majority of that was/is at centre (other than the odd cameo in the back row) do you really think that Lancaster, Farrell and the rest of the coaching staff are looking at him for back row?
Everyone knows that there has been little to talk about of late within the England midfield. Yes there have been the odd success stories with some of the partnerships but none have been consistent. The only midfield player who I believe is certain to be in the Squad is JJ.
There have been many critic of the other cross code player Eastmond, but although I cannot see him as a starting centre for the coming world cup I do think he too will be included in the squad as he has the potential to completely turn a game around.
SB is there as a centre and there is where he should be in my opinion.
It seems to me that with a player like that (SB) you either get him in there and adapt your game around him or you do not have him at all. To bring him in to work around some game plan which may involve 4/5 attacking opportunities during a game is not utilising his abilities (unless of course he is used to draw defenders). There are many other experienced centres who can give you that.
I for one am in agreement with Clive Woodward and bearing his experience and success in mind, they'd be foolish not to listen.

 

[Patchey]

Shane Geraghty, heard it here first.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Shane Geraghty, heard it here first.

Apprently he is being looked at as a 10 in the squad not starter but depth option.

Apparently.