Who is The greatest winger of all time?

[Feicarsinn]

 

[King_D'Arcy]

You gotta wonder what Anthony Horgan is doing with his life now. I'd say every night he falls asleep while cradling his Ireland cap

 

[Feicarsinn]

Brian O'Driscoll must never get injured ever again. Ever.

A quote:

Q:Other than Munster the side I would like to have played for?
A: None.

Explains his performance in the green of Ireland.

 

[Shaggy]

I agree with Ranger ... if you are going to choose a winger to learn from, I wouldn't choose Lomu - a good all round winger needs to be good on defense as well as attack, and other sides found Lomu out a bit by kicking in behind him, as he was slow to turn and get back ... I think Jeff Wilson from the same era, had a better all round game (attack, defense, kicking etc)

... Lomu wasn't even the first All Black winger to score 4 tries in a test match against England - that honour is Duncan McGregor's in 1905 ... as a side issue, i'd love to have seen him or George Smith (the 1905 All Black winger, not the Wallaby flanker) play, to see how they played, and how much the game has changed

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

I hear people say that all the time. Just like with Ivan Lendl in tennis, George Best in football or Mark Spitz with swimming. Sports change over time. It gets harder. I think, honestly, that the 1950's internatonal level is not higher than today's provincial rugby (Currie Cup, ITM Cup or Magners League).

People who were the best ones 30 or 40 years ago, won't even be in a starting XV of a first division team nowadays. It's all nostalgic feelings, nothing more, nothing less

 

[King_D'Arcy]

Brian O'Driscoll must never get injured ever again. Ever.

A quote:

Q:Other than Munster the side I would like to have played for?
A: None.

Explains his performance in the green of Ireland.

Ireland vs All Blacks 2005 I believe it was. Anthony Horgan was woeful! Possibly one of the worst individual performances I've seen by someone in the green jersey. And I've seen some clangers!

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I agree with Ranger ... if you are going to choose a winger to learn from, I wouldn't choose Lomu - a good all round winger needs to be good on defense as well as attack, and other sides found Lomu out a bit by kicking in behind him, as he was slow to turn and get back ... I think Jeff Wilson from the same era, had a better all round game (attack, defense, kicking etc)

... Lomu wasn't even the first All Black winger to score 4 tries in a test match against England - that honour is Duncan McGregor's in 1905 ... as a side issue, i'd love to have seen him or George Smith (the 1905 All Black winger, not the Wallaby flanker) play, to see how they played, and how much the game has changed

Refreshing at last to see people look past the so called modern greats. Good to see people when they think of the players of the past instead of going for the Lomu card. Nice to see.

I hear people say that all the time. Just like with Ivan Lendl in tennis, George Best in football or Mark Spitz with swimming. Sports change over time. It gets harder. I think, honestly, that the 1950's internatonal level is not higher than today's provincial rugby (Currie Cup, ITM Cup or Magners League).

People who were the best ones 30 or 40 years ago, won't even be in a starting XV of a first division team nowadays. It's all nostalgic feelings, nothing more, nothing less

Physically the game has moved on ... talent-wise don't think so. Also think its quite insulting to the players of years gone by with that comment, you can disagree with me but for the greats I have met with their handful of Lions caps and their closet full of international caps for their respective nations id guarantee they be annoyed with what you have posted.

 

[dan the man]

This thread should probably be called Who is the Greatest Winger of All-Time??? (Apart from Jonah Lomu)

And to that i'd pick Rupeni Caucaunibuca.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Refreshing at last to see people look past the so called modern greats. Love it when people think of the players of the past. Nice to see.



Physically the game has moved on ... talent-wise don't think so. Also think its quite insulting to the players of years gone by with that little statement, you can disagree with me but for the greats I have met with their handful of Lions caps and their closet full of international caps for their respective nations id guarantee they be annoyed with what you have said.

Technique wise the game has moved on a great extent as well. Look at how loopy and slow much of the passing is in clips of old games. Backs don't seem to be expected to defend and the amount of knock ons is shocking. That said, I firmly believe that this is down to players getting better coaching and working in a fully professional environment. You give a team from the seventies the coaching, youth systems and time to work on their skills and physicality and I'm sure they'd be as good as their modern day equvilants.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Technique wise the game has moved on a great extent as well. Look at how loopy and slow much of the passing is in clips of old games. Backs don't seem to be expected to defend and the amount of knock ons is shocking. That said, I firmly believe that this is down to players getting better coaching and working in a fully professional environment. You give a team from the seventies the coaching, youth systems and time to work on their skills and physicality and I'm sure they'd be as good as their modern day equvilants.

True but if you take them for talent, regardless of the year they played then the likes of Gerald Davies, David Duckham etc were great players and I think its an insult when people just go ... game has moved on and thats it, they would not be able to cope. End of the matter.

Im going to turn this around. What about the likes of Howlett and co back in the games of yester-year without the professional training, youth system etc that all the modern players have had, would they have been able to have coped with the game? Food for thought.

 

[markshaw]

Lomu, just play JLR to see why

 

[dan the man]

Greatness ins't a measure of an amazingly skilled player... To me it's more a measure of the man himself and the contribution he's made to the sport.

eg. Colin Meads, arguably the greatest All Black ever, in his prime wouldn't match up to any decent Lock by todays standards... And thats not surprising considering today they are full-time payed athletes.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Be careful what you say. Cymro doesn't agree with that point of view. I just see the difference in play between matches nowadays and matches played 30 or 40 years ago. Not just in speed, but in all aspects the game has changed. There is no way those players would be outstanding players today. Not that it's an insult, like Cymro wants us to believe, but just a bit of prove that the game progresses constantly.

It's normal that in today's rugby, players are more complete than they were 30 or 40 years ago. The sport has changed drastically, it turned pro 16 years ago and hasn't been the same since.

 

[Ngapuhi]

how dare you

 

[markshaw]

True but if you take them for talent, regardless of the year they played then the likes of Gerald Davies, David Duckham etc were great players and I think its an insult when people just go ... game has moved on and thats it, they would not be able to cope. End of the matter.

Im going to turn this around. What about the likes of Howlett and co back in the games of yester-year without the professional training, youth system etc that all the modern players have had, would they have been able to have coped with the game? Food for thought.

I think the way to go is to not compare the great players of then and now.

 

[Shaggy]

True but if you take them for talent, regardless of the year they played then the likes of Gerald Davies, David Duckham etc were great players and I think its an insult when people just go ... game has moved on and thats it, they would not be able to cope. End of the matter.

Im going to turn this around. What about the likes of Howlett and co back in the games of yester-year without the professional training, youth system etc that all the modern players have had, would they have been able to have coped with the game? Food for thought.

Exactly, add in modern drainage of stadium fields, enclosed stadium roofs, modern balls, player substitutions, kicking tees etc ... players of yesteryear had to be able to play in all conditions - you just need to look at the Blues V Chiefs Super Rugby match to see how poorly the top class players play sometimes in bad conditions

Greatness ins't a measure of an amazingly skilled player... To me it's more a measure of the man himself and the contribution he's made to the sport.

eg. Colin Meads, arguably the greatest All Black ever, in his prime wouldn't match up to any decent Lock by todays standards... And thats not surprising considering today they are full-time payed athletes.

Sure, Colin Meads also had longevity as well, his peers at the time, such as Earl Kirton said that what made him great, was that he had the skills to play any position, including the backs ... while he's too small for a modern day lock, he could be a modern day loose forward, or a back

 

[Sam Owen]

Im not a believer in 'latest is greatest'. If you believe in that, its like saying Naas Botha, Jonathan Davies, Will Carling, Tim Horan, Christian Cullen etc..would be nothing in todays game and I do see your reasons. However what if all those old school greats had been trained the same way todays players were?...what if todays players had to train the way the oldies did back in their time and with their trainning knowledge and methods?....

 

[nickdnz]

Be careful what you say. Cymro doesn't agree with that point of view. I just see the difference in play between matches nowadays and matches played 30 or 40 years ago. Not just in speed, but in all aspects the game has changed. There is no way those players would be outstanding players today. Not that it's an insult, like Cymro wants us to believe, but just a bit of prove that the game progresses constantly.

It's normal that in today's rugby, players are more complete than they were 30 or 40 years ago. The sport has changed drastically, it turned pro 16 years ago and hasn't been the same since.

I agree 100%. People make statements that "given the same training etc, players from fifty years would be just as good", but fact of the matter is, noone knows. The game has changed so much. Someone mentioned Colin Meads on here, pointing out that he wouldn't be able to make a starting XV now, and they're quite right. For a start, he never had to be lifted in a lineout, and second of all, he is only 6'2'' tall. Hookers now through into the lineout, where as many wingers such as Ron Jarden would throw in. It's a different game, and players have just gotten bigger, faster, stronger and more skillful than their counterparts of old, as you'd expect for a game going professional. It's not an insult, and it doesn't mean they weren't great players in their times, it's just reality.

Im not a believer in 'latest is greatest'. If you believe in that, its like saying Naas Botha, Jonathan Davies, Will Carling, Tim Horan, Christian Cullen etc..would be nothing in todays game and I do see your reasons. However what if all those old school greats had been trained the same way todays players were?...what if todays players had to train the way the oldies did back in their time and with their trainning knowledge and methods?....

In fairness, many of the players you just mentioned trained and played professional rugby, with many of the same advantages in salaries, training and most importantly, same rules played more or less by todays players, it just gets less and less clear how good a player of twenty five to thirty years ago, as the comparisons get less and less, and players weren't just professional athletes, but farmers, accountants and street cleaners while also playing for their national team.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Lomu vertainly was a freak when it came to his physical presence but I think South Africans never really thought much of him because he never scored against the Boks even though it did take 2 to mark him which opened up space for others.

Guys I remember who always did well against us; Wilson, Howlett and even though he isn't a winger winger, Mortlock needs special mention (at least when he was younger and in top form he seemed to have a way of getting passed our defenders). At present someone who seems to have a way with SA defenders is James O'Connor.

In that light and assuming the OP isn't built like Lomu I'd suggest he look at players who are closer to his physical attributes;

If he is small and agile then I suggest he looks at Shane Williams who also creates a lot of opportunitoes for others apart from scoring impossible solo tries.

In terms of a speedy winger with nothing flashy but with great instincts and support I don't think there's much better than Doug Howlett at test level.

 

[Sam Owen]

In fairness, many of the players you just mentioned trained and played professional rugby, with many of the same advantages in salaries, training and most importantly, same rules played more or less by todays players, it just gets less and less clear how good a player of twenty five to thirty years ago, as the comparisons get less and less, and players weren't just professional athletes, but farmers, accountants and street cleaners while also playing for their national team.

Yeah some of those players are old but what I was really getting at was Jonah. Im reading on this thread that Jonah would be nothing these days because peoples belief in 'latest is greatest' and if thats what you believe, thats what you believe.

If Jonah would be nothing these days because of blah blah blah then so would be Christian Cullen, he'd be nothing too. Or is there different standards if the player happens to be one of your favourites?....

Like I said Im not a believer in 'latest is greatest'. I believe a 20yr old Cullen and a 20 yr old Jonah would do well in todays Super Rugby. Thats what I believe.

Its just funny to me to say for example...'Oh Cullens my favourite player, hes the man but hes not as good as Mills, CJ or Beale 'cos they've had the latest trainning'.