C
C A Iversen
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChiefsFan @ Nov 9 2009, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Hang him, hang him!
Hang him, hang him!
-
Help Support The Rugby Forum :
O
Olyy
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChiefsFan @ Nov 9 2009, 12:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
But you can't argue that wasn't high/he ducked down and ran neckfirst into carters arm/whatever
Blatantly unintentional,
But you can't argue that wasn't high/he ducked down and ran neckfirst into carters arm/whatever
C
C A Iversen
Guest
I think every kiwi on here has agreed that it ended up too high and deserved a penalty/card. It's good to hear that more than a few NH people realise the lack of intent.
B
Bullitt
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 9 2009, 01:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I shouldn't tar everyone with the brush. Only the most one-eyed of Welshman would believe it was malicious and intentional.
And the champion-complainer is a gentlemen from the SH!
I shouldn't tar everyone with the brush. Only the most one-eyed of Welshman would believe it was malicious and intentional.
And the champion-complainer is a gentlemen from the SH!
D
dullonien
Guest
I don't think anyone has said that it was intentional! Every single Welsh fan on these board who's commented on this incident has stated that it was a penalty and at a stretch a yellow. None of them even want him suspended!
Why can't some people accept that McCaw often plays on the other side of the laws. It's got nothing to do with Welsh people believing were the better team etc. Doubt any English supporter would argue that Richard Hill or Neil Back didn't play on the wrong side of the laws as often as they could. This is an important part of a good opensides armory, it's just that McCaw does it better and get's away with more than any other player! I know Martyn Williams often 'cheats' (trip on Ireland player 2008 etc.).
I don't see the problem with people questioning why McCaw get's away with more than his opposite number, it's bound to happen!
Why can't some people accept that McCaw often plays on the other side of the laws. It's got nothing to do with Welsh people believing were the better team etc. Doubt any English supporter would argue that Richard Hill or Neil Back didn't play on the wrong side of the laws as often as they could. This is an important part of a good opensides armory, it's just that McCaw does it better and get's away with more than any other player! I know Martyn Williams often 'cheats' (trip on Ireland player 2008 etc.).
I don't see the problem with people questioning why McCaw get's away with more than his opposite number, it's bound to happen!
C
C A Iversen
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Nov 10 2009, 12:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I've never said that McCaw doesn't infringe, every player does, more often than not unintentionally, but sometimes intentionally. My gripe is that referees do know to look out for him, they know to pay particular attention to him, as does anyone with even the remotest thought of rugby now. So, surely there is a big degree of exaggeration.
It reads to most kiwi fans something like this (no exaggeration).
Average number of times infringing in 80mins for test players.
1. Richie McCaw, 22 times
2. Some other player 9 times
3. Some other player 7 times
4. Some other player 6 times
5. Some other player 5 times
It's ridiculous. There is more said in rugby about McCaw cheating or being a cheat, than is or ever was said about Muralitharan in cricket. At least in cricket it was the officials who noticed him first and many got in trouble for how much they looked at him. In rugby we have a very technical area in breakdowns, and many referees are far better placed to police it than you or I. How is it that they cannot see what 100's of untrained, desperate-to-win fans can see so clearly (yet not post up all over the net)?
There will have been games throughout McCaw's career that opposition players infringed more than he did. Thats just the law of averages, but theres no way in hell anyones ever going to mention that. It's just beyond crazy.
I honestly think theres bound to be evidence out there of McCaw infringing, just like any player, but surely it's long past time, long long past it, that someone You Tubed it?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
The truly laughable thing will be that as soon as he retires, the next good Flanker we have will be a cheat.
I've never said that McCaw doesn't infringe, every player does, more often than not unintentionally, but sometimes intentionally. My gripe is that referees do know to look out for him, they know to pay particular attention to him, as does anyone with even the remotest thought of rugby now. So, surely there is a big degree of exaggeration.
It reads to most kiwi fans something like this (no exaggeration).
Average number of times infringing in 80mins for test players.
1. Richie McCaw, 22 times
2. Some other player 9 times
3. Some other player 7 times
4. Some other player 6 times
5. Some other player 5 times
It's ridiculous. There is more said in rugby about McCaw cheating or being a cheat, than is or ever was said about Muralitharan in cricket. At least in cricket it was the officials who noticed him first and many got in trouble for how much they looked at him. In rugby we have a very technical area in breakdowns, and many referees are far better placed to police it than you or I. How is it that they cannot see what 100's of untrained, desperate-to-win fans can see so clearly (yet not post up all over the net)?
There will have been games throughout McCaw's career that opposition players infringed more than he did. Thats just the law of averages, but theres no way in hell anyones ever going to mention that. It's just beyond crazy.
I honestly think theres bound to be evidence out there of McCaw infringing, just like any player, but surely it's long past time, long long past it, that someone You Tubed it?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
The truly laughable thing will be that as soon as he retires, the next good Flanker we have will be a cheat.
D
dullonien
Guest
Just because it hasn't been Youtubed, doesn't make it untrue. Have a look at the rugby on youtube, almost all of it is either wonderful tries, tributes to a fan's favourite player, some big incident of foul play, or a video mix of big hits etc. Why would anybody want to sit down and make a compilation of McCaw (or any other player) infringing at ruck time. Sounds exciting doesn't it..............
McCaw doesn't get pinged 22 times (I know that was just an example), or even double any other player. If that were true, NZ would get blown off the park and never have the ball in their hands! McCaw doesn't appear to be penalised more than any other openside, yet practically every rugby pundit say (Jonathan Davies said it on Scrum V last night for example) that McCaw get's away with alot. Many people see it as one of the reasons he's soo good (as I do), but I can understand when people get annoyed.
Getting away with as much as you can (cheating I suppose) is part of rugby. NZ do it better than most, Wales are deceidedly poor at doing it (wish we weren't).
McCaw doesn't get pinged 22 times (I know that was just an example), or even double any other player. If that were true, NZ would get blown off the park and never have the ball in their hands! McCaw doesn't appear to be penalised more than any other openside, yet practically every rugby pundit say (Jonathan Davies said it on Scrum V last night for example) that McCaw get's away with alot. Many people see it as one of the reasons he's soo good (as I do), but I can understand when people get annoyed.
Getting away with as much as you can (cheating I suppose) is part of rugby. NZ do it better than most, Wales are deceidedly poor at doing it (wish we weren't).
S
shazbooger
Guest
I dont have a problem with McCaw but I do have a problem with the referee interpretation of the law at the breakdown. We saw it with the Lions in South Africa and we'll see it again this autumn.
Why is it with a NH ref the SH team is at a dissadvantage (and still wins) but with a SH referee the NH team is at a dissadvantage?
And, what (if anything I said here is actually correct) are the main differences between both games?
Why is it with a NH ref the SH team is at a dissadvantage (and still wins) but with a SH referee the NH team is at a dissadvantage?
And, what (if anything I said here is actually correct) are the main differences between both games?
W
Woldog
Guest
Only thing I hope to never hear again is that bloody Welsh commentator, sounds like he's on helium and I can't understand a word he says.
D
dullonien
Guest
You mean Jonathan Davies! He's got an odd voice, but he's probably one of the most knowlegable commentators there is. He really does know his stuff, and can disect exactly where a move went right or wrong almost instantly. Personally he's my favourite commentator, but he can be rather biased towards Wales, so unerstand why others wouldn't like him.
Numbers on the left, gotta go wide......
he wasn't commentating on the game on Sat though. He was however in the studio, and they dis get his views a couple of times. The commentators were Ady Buttler and Brian Moore.
Numbers on the left, gotta go wide......
he wasn't commentating on the game on Sat though. He was however in the studio, and they dis get his views a couple of times. The commentators were Ady Buttler and Brian Moore.
F
feicarsinn
Guest
Jonathan Davies Climaxes whenever there's an overlap eg. NUMBERS! NUMBERS OUT WIDE!!! YESSS!!!!
Still great guy.
Still great guy.
S
shazbooger
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (feicarsinn @ Nov 9 2009, 01:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
If your Welsh
F
feicarsinn
Guest
Well, he's no Tony Ward obviously.
C
C A Iversen
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Nov 10 2009, 01:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
People doing knitting demonstrations is not great viewing either, but it's there. You all know these tours are coming, record a match and then edit the bits which prove your point. If so many people believe it, it should be there. Really boring crap of all kinds is on there, so this would do you all a favour, so why not?
I should mention that he has had two spells out of international rugby and each time there have been people on here who were calling him a cheat after matches he never even played in for goodness sake!!!!
Also, for goodness sake, (and I'm not trying to be an ass here), please read my comments correctly. I never said thats how often he was pinged. I said, it was an example of how often a match it seems people think that he infringes. Not how often he's caught. The amount of attention he cops for it is ridiculous.
You also cherry picked and didn't acknowledge my points on referees being better judges than we. Is he a magician, I mean really....a magician? To be able to show something on a television screen hundreds of times throughout his career, that referees miss over and over and over again, he has to be a magician.
People doing knitting demonstrations is not great viewing either, but it's there. You all know these tours are coming, record a match and then edit the bits which prove your point. If so many people believe it, it should be there. Really boring crap of all kinds is on there, so this would do you all a favour, so why not?
I should mention that he has had two spells out of international rugby and each time there have been people on here who were calling him a cheat after matches he never even played in for goodness sake!!!!
Also, for goodness sake, (and I'm not trying to be an ass here), please read my comments correctly. I never said thats how often he was pinged. I said, it was an example of how often a match it seems people think that he infringes. Not how often he's caught. The amount of attention he cops for it is ridiculous.
You also cherry picked and didn't acknowledge my points on referees being better judges than we. Is he a magician, I mean really....a magician? To be able to show something on a television screen hundreds of times throughout his career, that referees miss over and over and over again, he has to be a magician.
S
shazbooger
Guest
lol I still remember his girly screech (no other word for it) when Jones missed that kick.
Funny as ****.
Funny as ****.
T
toup
Guest
First things first: the best back row players in the world cheat.
Ok, so cheating may be a bit strong, but I defy anyone to mention a genuine, top class flanker or other ball-winner who doesn't flirt with penalisation at virtually every breakdown. Sometimes they get caught, but more often than not, they win the ball.
Now I have issues with players' reputations meaning they are less likely to be penalised, but the fact remains that they have had to earn any reputation through a lot of hard work and winning the ball legally - they don't have a reputation when they start, so using this logic, would have given away countless penalties and been dropped as 'ill disciplined'.
Richie McCaw may trade on a reputation at times, but the fact remains that he is capable of winning ball legally and effectively, and until a referee sees a cast-iron reason to penalise him, they will refrain from doing so.
Just as they will with any other player.
Ok, so cheating may be a bit strong, but I defy anyone to mention a genuine, top class flanker or other ball-winner who doesn't flirt with penalisation at virtually every breakdown. Sometimes they get caught, but more often than not, they win the ball.
Now I have issues with players' reputations meaning they are less likely to be penalised, but the fact remains that they have had to earn any reputation through a lot of hard work and winning the ball legally - they don't have a reputation when they start, so using this logic, would have given away countless penalties and been dropped as 'ill disciplined'.
Richie McCaw may trade on a reputation at times, but the fact remains that he is capable of winning ball legally and effectively, and until a referee sees a cast-iron reason to penalise him, they will refrain from doing so.
Just as they will with any other player.
G
gingergenius
Guest
Why does it still happen year after year?
Because before an international, NH fans get hyped up. They big up their team's chances. When they then lose, they need an excuse. Whenever the All Blacks beat anyone, it's always because Richie McCaw is a cheat and the referee should sort him out. Whenever the Springboks win, it's because (insert Afrikaner forward here) is a dirty player, and the referee should sort him out. Whenever Australia win it's because the scrums aren't referreed properly.
Basically, these things are diversions from the ultimate truth, which is that our team has lost invariably because they've been 2nd best. Rugby has a set of rules that have numerous interpretations. Each nation places more importance on some than others. Here come the clashes.
Richie McCaw is accused of cheating at the breakdown. Here, the rules are a big blur. You cannot enter a ruck from the 'side', but the referee has to decide where the 'side' is. You must stay on your feet, but with many bodies in there this is difficult to see. Once a ruck is formed you must remove your hands from it, but again, if you're about to make a steal as 'ruck' is called, you might think you have a split-second's leniency.
With all these question marks, of course someone like McCaw will sail as close to the wind as he possibly can. Every great fetcher always has, and McCaw's abilities around the breakdown are what make him the greatest 7 of all time.
Because before an international, NH fans get hyped up. They big up their team's chances. When they then lose, they need an excuse. Whenever the All Blacks beat anyone, it's always because Richie McCaw is a cheat and the referee should sort him out. Whenever the Springboks win, it's because (insert Afrikaner forward here) is a dirty player, and the referee should sort him out. Whenever Australia win it's because the scrums aren't referreed properly.
Basically, these things are diversions from the ultimate truth, which is that our team has lost invariably because they've been 2nd best. Rugby has a set of rules that have numerous interpretations. Each nation places more importance on some than others. Here come the clashes.
Richie McCaw is accused of cheating at the breakdown. Here, the rules are a big blur. You cannot enter a ruck from the 'side', but the referee has to decide where the 'side' is. You must stay on your feet, but with many bodies in there this is difficult to see. Once a ruck is formed you must remove your hands from it, but again, if you're about to make a steal as 'ruck' is called, you might think you have a split-second's leniency.
With all these question marks, of course someone like McCaw will sail as close to the wind as he possibly can. Every great fetcher always has, and McCaw's abilities around the breakdown are what make him the greatest 7 of all time.
S
shazbooger
Guest
Tell you all what. I'll take a look at the New Zealand vs Wales breakdown battle and put a clip together.
Personally I think McCaw is the best 7 in the world and he doesnt cheat but I wonder it the breakdown is impacted by the referee and his interpretation.
Either way I though New Zealand should have won by 20. I dont think they even got out of first gear. It reminded me of what they did to ireland last year in Croke Park.
Personally I think McCaw is the best 7 in the world and he doesnt cheat but I wonder it the breakdown is impacted by the referee and his interpretation.
Either way I though New Zealand should have won by 20. I dont think they even got out of first gear. It reminded me of what they did to ireland last year in Croke Park.
Similar threads
