Will Argentina be a quick study?

[William18]

It's hard to rate popularity just from a broad stroke, soccer is actually by far the most played sport in Canada, but as a spectator sport is way down the list, so I'd have to rank it 3rd or even 4th here.

Edit: I'd always heard it was third in Ireland as well from everyone I'd talked to.

Edit Edit: There are a couple of other countries in Europe where Association football isn't top dog, Finland and Latvia it's Ice Hockey in winter with Pesäpallo and Basketball in the summer respectively and Lithuania it's Basketball.

Yeah, playing number is a terrible way of determining the most popular sport. We have more soccer players than rugby players in New Zealand but that doesn't mean much. There is no doubt what the national sport is here.

 

[LittleGuy]

Yeah, playing number is a terrible way of determining the most popular sport. We have more soccer players than rugby players in New Zealand but that doesn't mean much. There is no doubt what the national sport is here.

The beauty of soccer is it's ease to play especially at a casual level, equipment costs and risks of injury are much lower than in many other sports. As a spectator sport it has it's niche here in North America, amongst huge afficianados, general sports fans and the major international competitions, but many people even who play the game find it difficult to watch generally due to following reasons....lack of scoring/often controversial goals(dissalowed goals) when they do occur...flagrant diving and cheating. Large stretches of players passing the ball between one another without attempting to advance with it....injury time instead of a stop clock...etc.

Perhaps we should merger this into another thread guys, we've(myself included) strayed a little off topic here.

 

[nickdnz]

I don't mean to be harsh here, but there is little point if any in putting the PI teams into an expanded Rugby Championship. The fact of the matter is that their populations are just too small to see them become very much better than they already are. Don't get me wrong, Fiji are quite weak at the moment and Tonga aren't great shakes, but even at their best I don't think they'd ever really be to seriously compete with the big three. Samoa have a good team at the moment, but the best they can hope for is the odd scalp and in all probability they wont have a team as strong as the one they had over the past 3 years for some time going on their performances at the JWC's.

Argentina is a different matter though. There's so much room for growth there, both in terms of playing numbers and financial prospects. There's a real chance that in 20 years they could be regularly beating the big three, whereas I don't think that can ever be the case with the Pacific Island teams.

Yep, exactly. It seems unfair, but adding them (combined Fiji, Samoa and Tonga have a population smaller than Auckland) makes no financial sense. They'll never have the resources to expand and will ALWAYS rely on other teams domestic leagues (which creates a problem with avalibility. And Samoa/Fiji's best players are only employed on the basis that they don't play much international rugby - and rugby is actually a big export for Samoa, so loss of paid players won't help either).

One thing I will say - If Fiji were able to field their best team I think they could be very competitive, they just never will. Samoa's JWC players aren't anything to worry about either, most of Samoa's players will likely come from the New Zealand youth system (as was the case in the RWC).

 

[psychic duck]

Yep, exactly. It seems unfair, but adding them (combined Fiji, Samoa and Tonga have a population smaller than Auckland) makes no financial sense. They'll never have the resources to expand and will ALWAYS rely on other teams domestic leagues (which creates a problem with avalibility. And Samoa/Fiji's best players are only employed on the basis that they don't play much international rugby - and rugby is actually a big export for Samoa, so loss of paid players won't help either).

One thing I will say - If Fiji were able to field their best team I think they could be very competitive, they just never will. Samoa's JWC players aren't anything to worry about either, most of Samoa's players will likely come from the New Zealand youth system (as was the case in the RWC).

This. People like to complain about New Zealand "poaching" Samoans, but in reality it works both ways.

For every one Samoan (who was probably educated in New Zealand) who plays for the All Blacks, in return there are 10 Kiwi Super Rugby standard players who play for Samoa.

 

[LittleGuy]

With the expansion of the PNC I think that is the best route forward for the Island teams, Canada and the United States will add a little more to that competition and the standard of play should be farily good with almost all of the 6 teams having a shot at winning.

The island teams tend to be strong in cycles as others have pointed out prior to my post, I don't think they can consistently compete with the four teams already in the competition. Not only are populations low but per capita GDP is quite low as well. Perhpas in the distant future if the island economies picked up they could support some sort of combined professional team playing out of Suva but that's just a pipe dream at the moment.

 

[smartcooky]

An expanded PNC is almost a return to the Epson Pacific Rim Cup competition of the early 2000's

 

[LittleGuy]

An expanded PNC is almost a return to the Epson Pacific Rim Cup competition of the early 2000's

That was an awesome tournament, it was on when I was really stating to get into the game in the late nineties, if this competiton goes through I think it could be some great rugby for the six countries and neutral's alike.

 

[smartcooky]

That was an awesome tournament, it was on when I was really stating to get into the game in the late nineties, if this competiton goes through I think it could be some great rugby for the six countries and neutral's alike.

I could never understand why they stopped that tournament (unless it was the money of course).

Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, Japan, USA and Canada in an annual tournament over five weeks during June and July playing matches all around the Pacific Rim.

If this is the way the IRB are going to go with the PNC then its a real case of Back to the Future.

On Poaching

The poaching myth isn't a myth at all, its the truth!

At the last world Cup, New Zealand had four players in their squad who were not born in New Zealand;

Mils Muliaina (Samoa)
Ben Franks (Australia)
Jerome Kaino (Samoa)
Isaia Toeava (Samoa)

However, their were 38 New Zealand born players in the squads of nine other countries

Australia: (2)
Quade Cooper (Auckland)
Digby Ioane (Wellington)

Canada: (1)
Jeremy Kyne (Wellington)

England: (2)
Dylan Hartley (Bay of Plenty)
Shontayne Hape (Auckland

Fiji: (3)
Nicky Little (King Country)
Deacon Manu (Taranaki)
Michael Tagicakibau (Auckland)

Ireland: (1)
Isaac Boss (King Country)

Japan: (6)
Luke Thompson (Canterbury)
Michael Leitch (Canterbury)
Shaun Webb (Tasman)
Justin Ives (Otago)
James Arlidge (Waikato)
Murray Williams (Wellington)

Samoa: (15)
Census Johnston (Auckland)
Anthony Perenise (Wellington)
Olé Avei (Wellington)
Daniel Leo (Manawatu)
Kane Thompson (Horowhenua)
Kahn Fotuali'i (Auckland)
Jeremy Sua (Wellington)
Tusi Pisi (Auckland)
Sailosi Tagicakibau (Auckland)
James So'oialo (Wellington)
Ti'i Paulo (Canterbury)
Filipo Lavea Levi (Waikato)
Junior Poluleuligaga (Auckland)
Tasesa Lavea (King Country)
Paul Williams (Auckland)

Tonga: (7)
Tukulua Lokotui (Auckland)
Kurt Morath (North Harbour)
Ephraim Taukafa (Auckland)
Thomas Palu (Wellington)
Andrew Ma'ilei (Auckland)
William Helu (Auckland)
Siale Piutau (Auckland)

USA: (1)
James Paterson (Christchurch, New Zealand)


Yes folks, the truth about poaching is that the rest of the world poaches off us!!!

 

[Shaggy]

I could never understand why they stopped that tournament (unless it was the money of course).

Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, Japan, USA and Canada in an annual tournament over five weeks during June and July playing matches all around the Pacific Rim.

If this is the way the IRB are going to go with the PNC then its a real case of Back to the Future.

On Poaching

The poaching myth isn't a myth at all, its the truth!

At the last world Cup, New Zealand had four players in their squad who were not born in New Zealand;

Mils Muliaina (Samoa)
Ben Franks (Australia)
Jerome Kaino (Samoa)
Isaia Toeava (Samoa)

However, their were 38 New Zealand born players in the squads of nine other countries

Australia: (2)
Quade Cooper (Auckland)
Digby Ioane (Wellington)

Canada: (1)
Jeremy Kyne (Wellington)

England: (2)
Dylan Hartley (Bay of Plenty)
Shontayne Hape (Auckland

Fiji: (3)
Nicky Little (King Country)
Deacon Manu (Taranaki)
Michael Tagicakibau (Auckland)

Ireland: (1)
Isaac Boss (King Country)

Japan: (6)
Luke Thompson (Canterbury)
Michael Leitch (Canterbury)
Shaun Webb (Tasman)
Justin Ives (Otago)
James Arlidge (Waikato)
Murray Williams (Wellington)

Samoa: (15)
Census Johnston (Auckland)
Anthony Perenise (Wellington)
Olé Avei (Wellington)
Daniel Leo (Manawatu)
Kane Thompson (Horowhenua)
Kahn Fotuali'i (Auckland)
Jeremy Sua (Wellington)
Tusi Pisi (Auckland)
Sailosi Tagicakibau (Auckland)
James So'oialo (Wellington)
Ti'i Paulo (Canterbury)
Filipo Lavea Levi (Waikato)
Junior Poluleuligaga (Auckland)
Tasesa Lavea (King Country)
Paul Williams (Auckland)

Tonga: (7)
Tukulua Lokotui (Auckland)
Kurt Morath (North Harbour)
Ephraim Taukafa (Auckland)
Thomas Palu (Wellington)
Andrew Ma'ilei (Auckland)
William Helu (Auckland)
Siale Piutau (Auckland)

USA: (1)
James Paterson (Christchurch, New Zealand)


Yes folks, the truth about poaching is that the rest of the world poaches off us!!!

Jeez, the whole poaching thing again, getting a little sick of this issue to tell the truth ... however, your example is the tip of the iceberg if for players not playing for their country of birth (I'm not calling it poaching), if you consider the number of players playing, that don't involve New Zealand, such as Australia's David Pocock (Zimbabwe).

Anyway, there are numerous reasons why this occurs, and provided that the player concerned makes the decision, and accepts the consequences of their decision, and that it doesn't contravene the laws of the game, I don't really have a problem with it.

Provided it's not seen as a long term solution to a nation's playing squad, and they are playing along side a reasonable proportion of the local talent, it can be beneficial by increasing the playing quality/standards.

If the game truly wants to grow globally, emerging nations are going to need these players and the coaching/support staff to bring their game up to speed faster.

... anyway, on the topic, I think Argentina have done a great job by negotiating their way into this tournament, and negotiating the release of their most experienced players. They already know what international rugby is all about, and bring a different style of rugby to the tournament, which freshens the tournament up a bit IMO.

I guess their challenge will be to bring new talent into their squad, as some of the players have been around a while, and must be due to retire soon.

 

[admartian]

I could never understand why they stopped that tournament (unless it was the money of course).

Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, Japan, USA and Canada in an annual tournament over five weeks during June and July playing matches all around the Pacific Rim.

If this is the way the IRB are going to go with the PNC then its a real case of Back to the Future.

On Poaching

The poaching myth isn't a myth at all, its the truth!

At the last world Cup, New Zealand had four players in their squad who were not born in New Zealand;

That's not poaching though.

Poaching is getting players at representative level. Those guys grew up here. Saying they're not Kiwi cos they're not born here is borderline Winston Peters.

 

[LittleGuy]

I could never understand why they stopped that tournament (unless it was the money of course).

Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, Japan, USA and Canada in an annual tournament over five weeks during June and July playing matches all around the Pacific Rim.

If this is the way the IRB are going to go with the PNC then its a real case of Back to the Future.

On Poaching

The poaching myth isn't a myth at all, its the truth!

At the last world Cup, New Zealand had four players in their squad who were not born in New Zealand;

Mils Muliaina (Samoa)
Ben Franks (Australia)
Jerome Kaino (Samoa)
Isaia Toeava (Samoa)

However, their were 38 New Zealand born players in the squads of nine other countries

Australia: (2)
Quade Cooper (Auckland)
Digby Ioane (Wellington)

Canada: (1)
Jeremy Kyne (Wellington)

England: (2)
Dylan Hartley (Bay of Plenty)
Shontayne Hape (Auckland

Fiji: (3)
Nicky Little (King Country)
Deacon Manu (Taranaki)
Michael Tagicakibau (Auckland)

Ireland: (1)
Isaac Boss (King Country)

Japan: (6)
Luke Thompson (Canterbury)
Michael Leitch (Canterbury)
Shaun Webb (Tasman)
Justin Ives (Otago)
James Arlidge (Waikato)
Murray Williams (Wellington)

Samoa: (15)
Census Johnston (Auckland)
Anthony Perenise (Wellington)
Olé Avei (Wellington)
Daniel Leo (Manawatu)
Kane Thompson (Horowhenua)
Kahn Fotuali'i (Auckland)
Jeremy Sua (Wellington)
Tusi Pisi (Auckland)
Sailosi Tagicakibau (Auckland)
James So'oialo (Wellington)
Ti'i Paulo (Canterbury)
Filipo Lavea Levi (Waikato)
Junior Poluleuligaga (Auckland)
Tasesa Lavea (King Country)
Paul Williams (Auckland)

Tonga: (7)
Tukulua Lokotui (Auckland)
Kurt Morath (North Harbour)
Ephraim Taukafa (Auckland)
Thomas Palu (Wellington)
Andrew Ma'ilei (Auckland)
William Helu (Auckland)
Siale Piutau (Auckland)

USA: (1)
James Paterson (Christchurch, New Zealand)


Yes folks, the truth about poaching is that the rest of the world poaches off us!!!

I beleive it was money reasons that stopped the Epson cup, smartcooky if I remember correctly I beleive Epson pulled out as sponsor and they couldn't get another sugar daddy to help out, don't take that as gospel though this is about ten years ago.

There is an interesting story behind Jeremy Kyne's arrival in Canada, he actually came here due to a young lady(it didn't work out) but he stayed anyways and ended up playing in the CRC and got himself a couple of caps including an RWC appearance. He has retired from playing now but is helping out fellow retiree Ryan Smith with coaching and managing the Prairie Wolf Pack side in the CRC.

Here is a link to a story TSN.ca did on Jeremy Kyne

http://www.tsn.ca/story/?id=373141

 

[smartcooky]

Jeez, the whole poaching thing again, getting a little sick of this issue to tell the truth ... however, your example is the tip of the iceberg if for players not playing for their country of birth (I'm not calling it poaching), if you consider the number of players playing, that don't involve New Zealand, such as Australia's David Pocock (Zimbabwe).

Bloody hell Shaggy! I was having a wee joke at the expense of the "NZ are a bunch of ****ing poachers" crowd. Believe me, these idiots still exist out there in forumland

I thought I had worded it with sufficient sarcasm to make that obvious. Perhaps I should have used some smileys to remove all doubt.

 

[admartian]

Bloody hell Shaggy! I was having a wee joke at the expense of the "NZ are a bunch of ****ing poachers" crowd. Believe me, these idiots still exist out there in forumland

I thought I had worded it with sufficient sarcasm to make that obvious. Perhaps I should have used some smileys to remove all doubt.

Always use smilies!!!

Nah I felt a bit of tongue in cheek in there. I just wanted to point out my previous point.

 

[Shaggy]

Bloody hell Shaggy! I was having a wee joke at the expense of the "NZ are a bunch of ****ing poachers" crowd. Believe me, these idiots still exist out there in forumland

I thought I had worded it with sufficient sarcasm to make that obvious. Perhaps I should have used some smileys to remove all doubt.

Yeah, I know you were taking the p1$$, but I thought I'd emphasize that it's pretty wide spread, and that most nations would probably have at least one player in their squad that wasn't born in the country they are playing for.

... Yes, this issue does seem to cycle back in the various forums, along with the Haka should be banned, <insert your open side flanker here> is a cheat, this referee has it in for us, and the judicial system has it in for us/such and such should not be banned because player X got away with a similar offence

... but, I guess if those things weren't there to talk about, we wouldn't have much to talk about, would we?

 

[smartcooky]

....this referee has it in for us, and the judicial system has it in for us

Yep. "Justice 4 all" I reckon.




PS: Oops, forgot this bit :cheers:

 

[rgman]

Well, ask today for anybody from Wales after game with Pumas in Cardiff, welsh guys could answer thread question better than others I guess :vampire:

 

[Muzzy]

Yep, exactly. It seems unfair, but adding them (combined Fiji, Samoa and Tonga have a population smaller than Auckland) makes no financial sense. They'll never have the resources to expand and will ALWAYS rely on other teams domestic leagues (which creates a problem with avalibility. And Samoa/Fiji's best players are only employed on the basis that they don't play much international rugby - and rugby is actually a big export for Samoa, so loss of paid players won't help either).

One thing I will say - If Fiji were able to field their best team I think they could be very competitive, they just never will. Samoa's JWC players aren't anything to worry about either, most of Samoa's players will likely come from the New Zealand youth system (as was the case in the RWC).

I think the only answer for the PI teams is to make the local clubs in the islands stronger, that way we won't have to rely on using overseas based players. The Fiji Warriors which was made up of all local Fijian players beat the Blues A, Hurricanes A, Chiefs A and Crusaders A in this years PRC and they were all made up of ITM Cup players, if Fiji had a team (like the NZ Warriors in the NRL I guess) included in a competition like the ITM Cup or maybe one with Aus teams it could improve the local standard where they won't have to rely on players from europe. Only problem is why would NZ want to do that, or if they even could.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Bizzare use of a smiley if I've ever seen it