England World Cup Squad

[Which Tyler]

So for the A team its Kelly v Atkinson v Ojomoh v Anyanwu v Hartley.
Very differing options all at different levels of development. Kelly and Atkinson probably the furthest along the lines...Ojomoh, Anwanyu next and then Hartley quite a way back...but 6'4 and hugely talented (and at Saracens, which should help his development)

FTR:
Dan Kelly: 22 yrs, 5 mths; 54 starts, 9 benches
Ojomoh: 23 yrs, 2 mths; 41 starts, 9 benches
Atkinson: 21 yrs, 6 mths; 26 starts, 5 benches
OHartley: 21 yrs, 9 mths; 14 starts, 5 benches
Anyanwu: 22 yrs, 11mths; 12 starts, 6 benches

I wouldn't say that Hartley is all that far back from someone less experienced.
IMO Hartley and Anyanwu need to overcome/not suffer Second Season Syndrome before being considered especially whilst the other 3 have already done so (or in Atkinson's case, is in the process of doing so, and doing a good job of not suffering).
None of them are the finished article yet - nor should anyone expect them to be.

 

[Geordie]

Yes but you need to look at the starts in context...Hartley is probably mostly prem cup games etc...whereas Kelly and Atkinson have played a few seasons of prem now etc.

 

[Which Tyler]

Yes but you need to look at the starts in context...Hartley is probably mostly prem cup games etc...whereas Kelly and Atkinson have played a few seasons of prem now etc.

Fair point, there's always more nuance to be seen.
OHartley is 10 PRC and 9 Prem (4 starts)
Anyanwu is 6 PRC and 12 Prem (7 starts)
Atkinson is 6 PRC and 19 Prem (16 starts) and 5 EPRC (4 starts)
Ojomoh is 7 PRC and 38 Prem (31 starts) and 5 EPRC (4 starts)
Dan Kelly is 3 PRC and 45 Prem (41 starts) and 15 EPRC (10 starts) and 1 test match (1 start)

I still can't see Anyanwu as being ahead of Hartley.
I see 2 at the front (Kelly & Ojomoh), 1 in the middle (Atkinson), and 2 at the back (Hartley & Anyanwu).
Selecting for England, I'd have Atkinson ahead of Ojomoh on the principal that he's first choice starter at club level (through comparative lack of competition at his club) - but I'd very much keep Ojomoh involved, because IF he can become a first choice starter, or even equal choice starter through rotation with his international competition; then he'll have proven himself to be a VERY good player indeed. I don't think he's there yet, but he's got all the tools, he just needs to cut down on his error count. I kinda like that he's had those little bits of experience at 10, 13 and 14 as well to round off his education.

Playing multiple seasons is the whole point about Second Season Syndrome.
Most players get a gentle introduction, generally <10 matches, and generally more PRC/AWC than Prem/EPRC; then a breakthrough season, where they hit 20+ appearances, then they get into their Second Season - where we get to find out if it was injuries to others, pure class, or a purple patch unlikely to be repeated; whilst opponents now have some actual analysis of their play, and come up with tactics to mitigate the player's strengths, and exploit their weaknesses - AKA Second Season Syndrome.
Hartley and Anyanwu haven't had their breakthrough season yet, Atkinson had his last year.
So many players, especially backs, burst onto the scene with a massive fanfair, then basically disappear, or find their level at solid-club-pro, never to achieve those heights again.

It's why I would (basically) never pick a player for international rugby based on their breakthrough season alone. Get to February of their Second (principal) season, and you've (just about) got enough to know how they're handling the pressure of regular starts against opponents who've analysed them.

 

[Geordie]

Fair point.
Hartley is 10 PRC and 9 Prem (4 starts)
Anyanwu is 6 PRC and 12 Prem (7 starts)
Atkinson is 6 PRC and 19 Prem (16 starts) and 5 EPRC (4 starts)

I still can't see Anyanwu as being ahead of Hartley

Playing multiple seasons is the whole point about Second Season Syndrome.
Most players get a gentle introduction, generally <10 matches, and generally more PRC/AWC than Prem/EPRC; then a breakthrough season, where they hit 20+ appearances, then they get into their Second Season - where we get to find out if it was injuries to others, pure class, or a purple patch unlikely to be repeated; whilst opponents now have some actual analysis of their play, and come up with tactics to mitigate the player's strengths, and exploit their weaknesses - AKA Second Season Syndrome.
Hartley and Anyanwu haven't had their breakthrough season yet, Atkinson had his last year.
So many players, especially backs, burst onto the scene with a massive fanfair, then basically disappear, or find their level at solid-club-pro, never to achieve those heights again.

It's why I would (basically) never pick a player for international rugby based on their breakthrough season alone. Get to February of their Second (principal) season, and you've (just about) got enough to know how they're handling the pressure of regular starts against opponents who've analysed them.

Oh i agree...thats why as youve rightly said Kelly and Atkinson are ahead at the moment. Ill be watching Hartleys development very closely.

I do still wonder why SB didnt take Kelly to the World Cup. He brought him through at tigers, was his goto 12 for the prem winning run...selected for the extended squad then released...it makes you wonder.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Anyanwu haven't had their breakthrough season

This is totally fair - the problem for Anyanwu is that Andre is the 12, and unless he's unav, he'll start there. Anyanwu may be able to sneak the 23 shirt if everyone is fit, but he's behind a list of players for that (Beard and Northmore at least, maybe Lynagh/Green/Cleaves depending on game) and at 13, he's behind Joseph and Northmore, whilst competing with Beard.

Unless we have injury woes, he's just not that likely to make it into the squad consistently imo, we are just stacked across the backline atm unfortunately for him.

He's also got potentially Hyde and Bryn Bradley on his heels too. He'll play a decent amount for Scottish again this year I imagine.

I love him and thinks he looks super promising, I just don't see how he can play consistently unless he makes himself undroppable whilst Northmore and Murley are out (I'm not sure how long that is).

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Trying to think of a good A team v Portugual
Hoping maybe something like
1. Davison, 2. Dunn, 3. Cole
4. Ewels, 5. Hill
6. Lawes, 7. Ludlow, 8. Vunipola
9. Youngs, 10. Ford
12. Kelly, 13. Joesph
11. May, 14. Malins, 15. Marcus Smith

Eh, I think that's overblown tbh - he got comfortably handled by Tuilagi a few weeks later and Esterhuizen is/was in much better form than Manu

I'm still fully on the Kelly hypetrain - my only concern is he didn't even make a RWC training squad (I think?),
Is he that far back in estimations? I know he had injuries towards the end of the season but he was fit during the camps and Borthwick included other players who'd been injured (and some who were currently injured)

Farrell still being looked at as a 10/12 hybrid limits numbers as well - I feel like they never really prioritise looking beyond Manu(/Lawrence) at 12 because they're happy to slap Farrell in there if needs be, and that's likely to continue with Borthwick talking about Farrell maybe making the next RWC

Watching Kelly play he's still not looking fully fit. So can't imagine how bad he looked 2/3 months ago in training.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Trying to think of a good A team v Portugual
Hoping maybe something like
1. Davison, 2. Dunn, 3. Cole
4. Ewels, 5. Hill
6. Lawes, 7. Ludlow, 8. Vunipola
9. Youngs, 10. Ford
12. Kelly, 13. Joesph
11. May, 14. Malins, 15. Marcus Smith

I didn't know the A stood for Arthritic

 

[BPM]

I'll bite on that …

I assume the A team vs. Portugal would actually 'capture' players so I'd definitely want to prioritise tying down any dual qualified players - specifically Fin Smith, Warr, Roebuck and Lynagh.

Subject to form etc. I'd go for:

1. F. Baxter
2. D. Frost
3. E. Painter
4. A. Coles
5. H. Tizard
6. J. Kenningham
7. B. Curry (c)
8. Barbeary
9. G. Warr
10. F. Smith
11. T. Roebuck
12. L. Northmore
13. W. Joseph
14. L. Lynagh
15. J. Hodge

16. S. Riley
17. M. Iyogun
18. J. Harper
19. R. Tuima
20. F. Harding / G. Fisilau
21. W. Porter
22. O. Bailey
23. J. Carpenter

So my rationale on this squad was mostly based upon the hope/expectation that the likes of Murley, Radwan, Pearson and Tom Willis will be in the senior squad.

We definitely need to look at new centre options so I'm very much hoping that Atkinson, Kelly (or ideally both) will be in the main squad too.

 

[BPM]

Presumably the selection there of Lynagh is to show an interest from England, and to tie him to us so that he would at least need 3 years before being "poached" by Australia.

I've no idea if Northmore is available for anyone else, but he's surely not the next cab off the rank at 12 (besides, isn't he mostly an OC? can't we, for once, pick someone who plays mostly at IC to play IC for us?)

Partly. ATM Lynagh would be there on merit too.

Northmore isn't next cab off the rank at 12. Kelly or Atkinson should be. I picked him because I'd hope they're in the main squad. Northmore is also primarily a 13. However, in the opening rounds (before he got injured) he was probably the pick of the eligible players actually playing at 12. I'd say he's as good as Nick Tompkins who has done pretty well at test level.

I'm not a great fan of Anyanwu. I think he's overrated without really much justification.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I think it's perhaps fair to say that people like the idea of Anyanwu more than the reality of Anyanwu. On paper he really does have it all but so far on the pitch he's done nothing to put his hat in the ring as part of an England conversation.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

I think it's perhaps fair to say that people like the idea of Anyanwu more than the reality of Anyanwu. On paper he really does have it all but so far on the pitch he's done nothing to put his hat in the ring as part of an England conversation.

This is it basically, I like him and think he could be really good, but there must be a reason he has been around the squad for a few years now (made his debut in Dec 2020), and never really got his big break

 

[Scotty]

This is it basically, I like him and think he could be really good, but there must be a reason he has been around the squad for a few years now (made his debut in Dec 2020), and never really got his big break

12 in the same team as Esterhuizen doesnt help haha. But i get your point, im sure he has looked good when ive seen him but yes 1 to improve for the future not for right now.

He seems to have all the attributes to be in with a shout of a call up if he gets to first choice and puts in consistant top performances but suppose until then its a moot point.

 

[Geordie]

I think for the 6n it will be:

Manu and Lawrence from the World Cup Squad.
Then one to replace Marchant maybe Will Joseph...and possibly one other Kelly v Atkinson.

Farrell will still be there though i actually dont want him near 12.
And dont forget Daly is a 13 historically...though again i think id prefer him on the wing...if hes in the squad.

 

[Geordie]

12 in the same team as Esterhuizen doesnt help haha. But i get your point, im sure he has looked good when ive seen him but yes 1 to improve for the future not for right now.

He seems to have all the attributes to be in with a shout of a call up if he gets to first choice and puts in consistant top performances but suppose until then its a moot point.

So did Billy Twelvetrees.....

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think it's perhaps fair to say that people like the idea of Anyanwu more than the reality of Anyanwu. On paper he really does have it all but so far on the pitch he's done nothing to put his hat in the ring as part of an England conversation.

12trees version 2? I mean if ever there was a guy that had everything on paper to be a 12 without really pulling it off... He even had 12 in his name.

 

[LIONSxv]

Bit of a stretch but Woodward at Tigers for the u20s looked good. Seems like a proper second distributer and solid carrying and tackling.

I saw a fair bit of Eng u20s last season and he looks like he would need a lot of physical development for the PREM let alone England. He is not particularly big or quick. Although he is nice passer and has a good feel for the game
Kelly and Atkinson who are are a similar age are quite a bit ahead of him imo

 

[LardFingers]

I have not seen Kelly play much, mostly doing defensive duties for Leicester. Question for those that have: can he really shift when he finds a gap?

 

[Geordie]

12trees version 2? I mean if ever there was a guy that had everything on paper to be a 12 without really pulling it off... He even had 12 in his name.

Yeah Billy was one of the real frustrstrations...6'3 big unit, strong, had pace, good hands, monster boot...yet just couldnt put it all together consistently. Ive seen him have a few rare games where he did and he was just top class...and made you even more frustrated...

 

[Scotty]

So did Billy Twelvetrees.....

Yes but thats why i also said becomes first choice and puts in consistant top performances....im obviously not saying look he has all the attributes to be good so should be first choice for England....

So many players will have have all the attributes and great at prem level yet never be able to step up. And sometimes the opposite overlooked players step up when they go to a different nation.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yes but thats why i also said becomes first choice and puts in consistant top performances....im obviously not saying look he has all the attributes to be good so should be first choice for England....

So many players will have have all the attributes and great at prem level yet never be able to step up. And sometimes the opposite overlooked players step up when they go to a different nation.

Or even step up in the same nation. Ben Morgan nearly always played better for country than club.