[2023 Six Nations] England Squad

[Crash Hamster]

That's one way to describe it. Another is that he was the 10 and playmaker in one of England's worst ever six nations campaigns. He wasn't handicapped by Farrell then either. Maybe I'm being harsh, but when I watch him for England, he often looks uncomfortable and doesn't run the show like he does for his club. Against New Zealand in the autumn, he was absolutely class in the final quarter, though he hasn't done it consistently enough, at least for me.

First game v Scotland:
Had Youngs at 9 and England were leading when he was replaced by George Ford. He'd also scored all England's points

Second game v Italy:
Had Randall at 9 for first 55 minutes and played the whole game in a 33-0 away win. Won MoM.

Third game v Wales:
Had Randall at 9 for first 62 minutes and kicked Wales to death. Played whole game. Won MoM.

Fourth game v Ireland:
Randall for the first 53 minutes. Ewels got sent off after 2 minutes, which didnt help. Scored all England's points in a tonking. Played whole game.

Fifth game v. France:
Youngs at 9 for first 64 minutes. Played whole game. Didn't miss a kick. Lost away to the GS winners.

Over twice as many points scored as Johnny Sexton.

I think, before the 2022 6N started, most realistic England supporters would have expected to lose to Ireland and France. As I say, we were beating Scotland when Smith went off. He's not quite 24 yet, which will make him 28 at the 2027 World Cup. Assuming no major injuries, he'll be a real asset and we have a reasonable chance of winning.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I just don't know about Dombrandt. My ideal 8 is a big lump that carriers well in traffic. Probably a little old fashioned. Bodies hanging off him to make space outside or on the shoulder. If you don't have a big lump it the means you have to play big lumps or in England's case a lock on the flank. Nice lines, quick hands and feet are lovely but surely an 8's main job is to smash the ball up and anyone in the way. However I do accept most of England's current 8's don't have that so we'll have to play to what skills they do have.

If he’s getting the team going forward I don’t really mind whether he’s running through brick walls or into space, although it’s always harder to defend against intelligence.

Mainly from watching Quins, in contact he seems to get man handled a bit too easily at times for a biggish unit. He dropped a fair bit of weight and while that will have helped his work rate, maybe there was a bit of a trade off on impact.

Maybe just perception, and possibly unfair, but his body language reminds me of Launchbury - often giving the impression of being gassed (maybe he is) rather than right up for getting straight back in the opposition faces. That matters to an extent.

His poor moments the other day were highlighted but there were some good ones too. Worth persevering with but not yet feeling like a long term solution.

 

[mike1]

First game v Scotland:
Had Youngs at 9 and England were leading when he was replaced by George Ford. He'd also scored all England's points

Second game v Italy:
Had Randall at 9 for first 55 minutes and played the whole game in a 33-0 away win. Won MoM.

Third game v Wales:
Had Randall at 9 for first 62 minutes and kicked Wales to death. Played whole game. Won MoM.

Fourth game v Ireland:
Randall for the first 53 minutes. Ewels got sent off after 2 minutes, which didnt help. Scored all England's points in a tonking. Played whole game.

Fifth game v. France:
Youngs at 9 for first 64 minutes. Played whole game. Didn't miss a kick. Lost away to the GS winners.

Over twice as many points scored as Johnny Sexton.

I think, before the 2022 6N started, most realistic England supporters would have expected to lose to Ireland and France. As I say, we were beating Scotland when Smith went off. He's not quite 24 yet, which will make him 28 at the 2027 World Cup. Assuming no major injuries, he'll be a real asset and we have a reasonable chance of winning.

It’s one of the most pressured positions and ideally you want to be bringing a young FH into an established mid field which he wasn’t, he is also playing behind a pack which at times has been fairly poor, the fact that even you have seen glimpses of brilliance (be it not as consistently as we would like) shows there is potential its hardly like we have a big queue of quality proven FHs in the waiting, FTR I don’t have any objections to Smith and Farrell sharing the shirt at different points in the game and what’s required and against different opposition, I do however have an objection to a Smith Faz combo it’s proven not to work, GF Faz combo has worked to some extent in the past due to their familiarity playing together over the years but even then for chunks of that the pack was performing well, Watson and May were on fire which probably makes it more difficult to determine actual strengths.


I agree and was perhaps being a little hasty I just want to see him transfer some club form, I did caveat it with (unless he can bring his club form), I guess this is a situation where there isn’t exactly an English 8 head and shoulders above others who you’d favour over him either currently.

You both make solid points, and for what it's worth, I hope Smith does comes good in an England shirt. Like I said, I thought my opinion might be controversial, but wanted to gauge the forum's thinking on the matter nevertheless.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Borthwick's ideal club level 8 was Wiese who is a wrecking ball as well

Yep you look at who played 8 for tigers under him
Wiese
Liebenberg
Martin
Chessum
Jansen

He doesn’t go for athletic.

 

[Scotty]

If he’s getting the team going forward I don’t really mind whether he’s running through brick walls or into space, although it’s always harder to defend against intelligence.

Mainly from watching Quins, in contact he seems to get man handled a bit too easily at times for a biggish unit. He dropped a fair bit of weight and while that will have helped is work rate, maybe there was a bit of a trade off on impact.

Maybe just perception, and possibly unfair, but his body language reminds me of Launchbury - often giving the impression of being gassed (maybe he is) rather than right up for getting straight back in the opposition faces. That matters to an extent.

His poor moments the other day were highlighted but there were some good ones too. Worth persevering with but not yet feeling like a long term solution.

With Dombrandt, given he isnt the the run through brick walls hard man and gets rag dolled to easy for a big man, maybe you have to pay the 'Simmonds tax' for Dombrant to be effective and you need say THill Willis Dombrandt. Some hard carriers to allow him to roam and run hard smar lines, i think that back row is incredably balanced. Hill and Willis are good carriers and with Chessum and Genge too your not short of good carriers.

Not sure who else we have who fits that carrying hard carrying 6 role.

but you cant pick dombrandt then explect him to be a hard man. Weve had Billy Billy or Billy for so long we just expect out 8 to be a blunt object.

Future options at 6 id say is Pearson and CCS but no point going into them now.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Reported Dan Kelly out of six nations.

Out for possible 10 weeks.

4 more games of Farrell it is, then!

We've got to start Tuilagi vs Italy to see what he looks like in the England backline

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Pearson yes, CCS not for a while.
Certainly think CCS is one for the future as a 8. Especially since we don’t have many great 8 prospects imo.

Mercer will be the main one of interest come RWC. Similar style to dombrandt but imo Merced’s skill set is so much higher than Dombrandt.

So Brandt is extremely good but he just doesn’t strike me too much as a player who can fit in different game plans.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

4 more games of Farrell it is, then!

We've got to start Tuilagi vs Italy to see what he looks like in the England backline

I want to see
12. Lawrence
13. Slade

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I know people don’t want to discard Ben curry yet, but imo Ludlum was Tom’s deputy. He’s excellent for saints as a 7 and added real impact off the bench in Aus.

People complain about having a lock hybrid at 6 but is having two 7’s that much better?

 

[BPM]

SB said he was picking on form

I rest my case

Specifically re. Youngs?

 

[Scotty]

I know people don’t want to discard Ben curry yet, but imo Ludlum was Tom’s deputy. He’s excellent for saints as a 7 and added real impact off the bench in Aus.

People complain about having a lock hybrid at 6 but is having two 7’s that much better?

Depends on the 7s, i dont like the Ludlam BCurry Dombrandt in all honesty, i rate Ludlam but think he has a ceiling, i rate ben curry but believe Willis is ahead of him and a better carrier.

Willis Ludlam works better IMO but then Hill Willis works better than that for me.

TCurry beefed up quite abit so would Willis TCurry be a good option when fit? I wanted to see that for a while.

Hybrid lock is not better for me tbh.

I really want to see Ludlam as a nailed on player because he give it all and you know will work and work and work but i just dont see it not sure what it is.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I want to see
12. Lawrence
13. Slade

Yeah tbf the game to test Lawrence at 12 is Italy - having Slade alongside him would help in the positioning stakes too

Think we've missed a trick by not calling Dingwall into camp - he's pretty much the only English 12 in the league that's on the radar

 

[BPM]

If he’s getting the team going forward I don’t really mind whether he’s running through brick walls or into space, although it’s always harder to defend against intelligence.

Mainly from watching Quins, in contact he seems to get man handled a bit too easily at times for a biggish unit. He dropped a fair bit of weight and while that will have helped his work rate, maybe there was a bit of a trade off on impact.

Maybe just perception, and possibly unfair, but his body language reminds me of Launchbury - often giving the impression of being gassed (maybe he is) rather than right up for getting straight back in the opposition faces. That matters to an extent.

His poor moments the other day were highlighted but there were some good ones too. Worth persevering with but not yet feeling like a long term solution.

There’s no redemption for the shocking lack of tackle on DvdM, but some of those ‘poor moments’ were inches away from being good ones.

For example, if he’d held the offload from Ludlam, I think that would have been a try scoring opportunity - either for Dombrandt going all the way or giving a scoring pass to someone else (which is definitely in his armoury). OK, it didn’t come off, but it was very close. No way Billy runs that line …

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Yeah tbf the game to test Lawrence at 12 is Italy - having Slade alongside him would help in the positioning stakes too

Think we've missed a trick by not calling Dingwall into camp - he's pretty much the only English 12 in the league that's on the radar

Yeh I think with Kelly out he should def be called up.

But I understand why Borthwick might not want 2 basically out and out 12’s in the squad not really a luxury when it comes to the RWC squad

 

[BPM]

With Dombrandt, given he isnt the the run through brick walls hard man and gets rag dolled to easy for a big man, maybe you have to pay the 'Simmonds tax' for Dombrant to be effective and you need say THill Willis Dombrandt. Some hard carriers to allow him to roam and run hard smar lines, i think that back row is incredably balanced. Hill and Willis are good carriers and with Chessum and Genge too your not short of good carriers.

Not sure who else we have who fits that carrying hard carrying 6 role.

but you cant pick dombrandt then explect him to be a hard man. Weve had Billy Billy or Billy for so long we just expect out 8 to be a blunt object.

Future options at 6 id say is Pearson and CCS but no point going into them now.

Harsh judging it on one game TBH, but Willis feels like an immediate upgrade on Ben Curry.

I’d also like to see Ted Hill. Hopefully Borthwick does too. We’ll know more when he has a bit more freedom on squad see selection.

 

[Scotty]

Honestly with Kelly out id call up a young 12 like Seb Atkinson, Ojomoh or Anyanwu or someone because either they will take to it like a duck to water or not. With Kelly out he has zero chance at any gametime pre world cup, we have Faz(which we dont want), Manu or Lawrence as options, non are actualy 12s so take a punt on a future player, impress then play them vs Wales. After 2 weeks in camp.

And if they dont then theyve only got Kelly spot and some experience for the future.

No point going oh well thats that we will just use 10s and 13s and hope for the best.

 

[Scotty]

Harsh judging it on one game TBH, but Willis feels like an immediate upgrade on Ben Curry.

I’d also like to see Ted Hill. Hopefully Borthwick does too. We’ll know more when he has a bit more freedom on squad see selection.

Dombrandts never been that player though thats tough and physical and carries in hard traffic or goes for big agressove tackles so we knew what we were getting. Im not judging him in saying we need to use him for the player he is and not who we want him to be.

If we know he has these weaknesses then work on them while balance the back row with players to compliment him.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Cockers is off after the 6N...

 

[Saintjay]

Great timing just before the RWC. Guessing Borth's is just as good coaching forwards tbh

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Montpellier really like their English imports, don't they?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Great timing just before the RWC. Guessing Borth's is just as good coaching forwards tbh

They're bringing in Ian Peel from Saracens at the end of the season I think (not sure if it's confirmed or just rumours?) - not much time to gel pre-RWC

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Yeh I think with Kelly out he should def be called up.

But I understand why Borthwick might not want 2 basically out and out 12’s in the squad not really a luxury when it comes to the RWC squad

Who's the other one?
I'm not seeing any out and out 12s in the squad - that's the problem.

Or is Manu considered incapable of playing 13 any more, despite playing 2/3 of his rugby there, including as recently as 3 months ago?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Who's the other one?
I'm not seeing any out and out 12s in the squad - that's the problem.

Or is Manu considered incapable of playing 13 any more, despite playing 2/3 of his rugby there, including as recently as 3 months ago?

Dingwall would be the second.
And my point is that I can understand with limited squad spots why a coach might be weary of having 2 out and out 12’s in a squad

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Dingwall would be the second.
And my point is that I can understand with limited squad spots why a coach might be weary of having 2 out and out 12’s in a squad

Yes, but I don't know who the first one is.

With Kelly out, there isn't an out and out 12 in the squad, presumably I'm missing someone obvious and will give myself a good kicking when I find out.

 

[BPM]

Is Dingwall an out and out 12 though? I think of him as primarily a 13 who can play 12 and ends up there mostly because his defence is much better than Hutchinson’s. I suspect he’ll be at 13 when Odendaal arrives.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Is Dingwall an out and out 12 though? I think of him as primarily a 13 who can play 12 and ends up there mostly because his defence is much better than Hutchinson’s. I suspect he’ll be at 13 when Odendaal arrives.

Yep. 73% of his pro starts have been at 13 and only 27% at 12.
6 starts at 12 this season compared to 8 at 13.

He's played a good bit of rugby at 12 but definitely is not an out-and-out 12.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Is Dingwall an out and out 12 though? I think of him as primarily a 13 who can play 12 and ends up there mostly because his defence is much better than Hutchinson’s. I suspect he’ll be at 13 when Odendaal arrives.

Our first team backline with have either Dingwall or proctor at 13 but always Hutchinson at 12. Dingwall is brilliant cover there for us and is great but in reality he’s viewed as a second choice 12 compared to Hutch.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Looking down the table at starting 12s in the run up to the Six Nations (looked at the last game before players were called into camp, so this isn't necessarily who is first choice - though I can't think of any EQPs that would usually be playing that aren't, other than Atkinson who is long term injured)

Saracens: Taylor (Scotland)
Sale: Tuilagi (England - Not selected)
Exeter: Kata (Tonga)
Northampton: Dingwall (England - Not in EPS)
Gloucester: Kveseladze (Georgia)
Harlequins: Esterhuizen (South Africa)
London Irish: Janse van Rensburg (South Africa)
Leicester: Kelly (England - Injured)
Newcastle: Orlando (Argentina)
Bath: Ojomoh (England - Not in EPS)
Bristol: Lloyd (Wales)

Pretty slim pickings, really:
Tuilagi, Dingwall, Kelly, Ojomoh
Tuilagi is already there and should start vs Italy,
Dingwall, imo, should've been called up for Kelly
Kelly, likely a starter but injured,
Ojomoh bags of potential - hopefully one for the future. Shame that he has Redpath ahead of him at Bath (though with Redpath's injury record there'll be no shortage of game time available). IMO should've gotten the opportunities Will Joseph got last year - 12 is our problem area, not 13

 

[Geordie]

Yeah i think we make do to this world cup then focus on develping post world cup.

Hartley - Saracens
Seb Atkinson - Gloucester
Anwanyu - Quins
Ojomoh - Bath
Ewan Greenlaw - Falcons
Kelly - Tigers - Most developed and Main contender at present if he can ever stay fit.

Surely out of those we can find one or 2 real quality options for international level.

 

[Wendigo7]

Anyanwu is the one I’ve got big hopes for. He’s everything we are looking to get from our 12.