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[2023 Six Nations] England Squad

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So im unapologetically fully on the Arundell hype train! Was gutted when he got injured amd wanted him to kick on, yet also a big Murley fan and believe he deserves it and has earned it.

All i can think is as wingers you have Watson, Freeman, Malins who all also cover FB and Marchant who is 13 who covers wing

And Daly(when fit) who covers centre wing FB.

Then OHC vs Murley as the 2 wingers, id have Murley personally.

Its odd but also he must see Arundell as a world cup bolter and Murley as a post WC player.
 
I mean I really dislike Youngs and he massively ruined the flow at the weekend but in reality with JVP being so raw and Eddie ruining our succession planning we’ve not really got anyone apart from Care to come in as the experienced role and I’m not sure that’s any better.
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
Quirk is injured?
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Playing terribly since he came back from injury - by all accounts he was awful vs Bristol on Friday, and should be 4th choice at Sale

Think Randall is back now so should be in the mix, though has as many weaknesses to his game as Mitchell does

Been joking about it but if we want a 9 who'll get the ball to our 10 with no fuss then could do a lot worse than Warr

Realistically 9 is a problem position for England, especially with JvP not playing near his best
 
Borthwick was reportedly only allowed to make 5 changes to the EPS, yet a good chunk of this thread is talking about players who aren’t there and can’t be picked in the current squad … it’s pointless.

With limited options, it would have been a straight choice between Youngs (who Borthwick knows well) or Mitchell who he doesn’t. I’d have preferred Mitchell, but it’s not that hard to see why he went with Youngs.

Let’s give the bloke a bit of time to settle in and pick his own squad. Making childish judgements after one game and next to no time in the role is the last thing we need.
 
BPM said:
Borthwick was reportedly only allowed to make 5 changes to the EPS, yet a good chunk of this thread is talking about players who aren’t there and can’t be picked in the current squad … it’s pointless.

With limited options, it would have been a straight choice between Youngs (who Borthwick knows well) or Mitchell who he doesn’t. I’d have preferred Mitchell, but it’s not that hard to see why he went with Youngs.

Let’s give the bloke a bit of time to settle in and pick his own squad. Making childish judgements after one game and next to no time in the role is the last thing we need.
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I think its a hangover from EJ, constantly annoyed at selection, favouritism and seemingly having a lack of common sense. So when a Borthwick team comes out and doesnt win, with Smith/Faz and youngs and seemingly odd picks like Malins on the wing it seems like EJ mk 2, after so long of dealing with him i see why people would have a short fuse.

I fully agree with you but see why people are thinking the worst.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
Playing terribly since he came back from injury - by all accounts he was awful vs Bristol on Friday, and should be 4th choice at Sale

Think Randall is back now so should be in the mix, though has as many weaknesses to his game as Mitchell does

Been joking about it but if we want a 9 who'll get the ball to our 10 with no fuss then could do a lot worse than Warr

Realistically 9 is a problem position for England, especially with JvP not playing near his best
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I’ll say it again, I haven’t been fussed with any of the scrummies we had coming through.

However I love the look of Charlie Bracken.
 
I really rate Dombrant but at some point it has to be called a failed experiment (unless he can start to bring his club form), I could be moss remember it wasn’t a good game for him but I am can’t remember a game In an England shirt I thought wow he was great, I’d love to see both Willis bros paired run themselves in the ground then let Curry come on for one of them with Earl at 6, I’m not saying this would defiantly work but hell what we’ve had hasn’t worked I want to see players excel as they get legitimate challenges for the short not get comfortable and under perform which is a common theme. I appreciate hands are tied to a large extent so much of this may not be possible.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
Who else is there, tbf
We've already got Mitchell there and realistically he's not good enough
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I heard there was a promising lad called Gus Warr, with a name like that he must be good, on a serious note I’d bring Care in if Dombrant and Smith are going to continue and Evans involvement it seems to make sense.
 
I believe that Dombrandt will come good so would stick with him a little longer. Controversial perhaps, but I can't say the same for Smith. I just don't see him making the step up to the level that's needed. How many caps has he now? I look back to when Farrell and Ford had their first few caps and you could just tell straight away that they were test players. Same with Cipriani, in fact. Am I alone?
 
Dombrant needs a chance to bed in to international rugby and the same can be said for quite a few of the lads. We don’t want to be dropping b curry or OHC yet.

Everyone needs to calm down, let’s pick the same 15 but sort the bench out and remove the EJ dead wood, although it also removes our experience.
 
mike1 said:
I believe that Dombrandt will come good so would stick with him a little longer. Controversial perhaps, but I can't say the same for Smith. I just don't see him making the step up to the level that's needed. How many caps has he now? I look back to when Farrell and Ford had their first few caps and you could just tell straight away that they were test players. Same with Cipriani, in fact. Am I alone?
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Marcus "highest points scorer in the 2022 Six Nations" Smith? Marcus "man of the match in both England's wins" Smith? Marcus "scored more points for England in those 5 games than Cipriani did in his whole England career" Smith?

I'm inclined to think he deserves his international spot; there's really not much more of a 'step up to international class' which he needs to make IMHO.
 
Crash Hamster said:
Marcus "highest points scorer in the 2022 Six Nations" Smith? Marcus "man of the match in both England's wins" Smith? Marcus "scored more points for England in those 5 games than Cipriani did in his whole England career" Smith?

I'm inclined to think he deserves his international spot; there's really not much more of a 'step up to international class' which he needs to make IMHO.
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Agreed when you consider a good chunk of his caps have been handicapped by Faz at 12 and Youngs at 9, where as Dombrant really doesn’t have the same excuses his inability to catch the ball vs Scotland proved pretty crucial it was a one off bad game, although as previously said I can’t remember seeing him for England looking really good not to say let’s just drop him but he does need to get his act together or at some point be dropped far sooner than Smith as things stand, both have had very average games only one very good!
 
Jimbo said:
I really rate Dombrant but at some point it has to be called a failed experiment (unless he can start to bring his club form), I could be moss remember it wasn’t a good game for him but I am can’t remember a game In an England shirt I thought wow he was great, I’d love to see both Willis bros paired run themselves in the ground then let Curry come on for one of them with Earl at 6, I’m not saying this would defiantly work but hell what we’ve had hasn’t worked I want to see players excel as they get legitimate challenges for the short not get comfortable and under perform which is a common theme. I appreciate hands are tied to a large extent so much of this may not be possible.
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Dombrandt has 10 caps and I think 3 starts. 9 of those came under Eddie where he was either being asked to be a heavy carrier (which isn’t his strength) or weirdly brought on to pack down as a flanker late in games. That’s your failed experiment …

He didn’t have a great game on Saturday, but it’s genuinely the first time I’ve seen him asked to play a similar role to what we see at Quins. I’d like to see him given at least a few more games as a starter.

Even if it isn’t a roaring success, it’ll help to evolve a game plan than will also suit Mercer when he’s available. Plus, I’d wager it’ll be better than what Billy would have been bringing.
 
Jimbo said:
Agreed when you consider a good chunk of his caps have been handicapped by Faz at 12 and Youngs at 9, where as Dombrant really doesn’t have the same excuses his inability to catch the ball vs Scotland proved pretty crucial it was a one off bad game, although as previously said I can’t remember seeing him for England looking really good not to say let’s just drop him but he does need to get his act together or at some point be dropped far sooner than Smith as things stand, both have had very average games only one very good!
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Crash Hamster said:
Marcus "highest points scorer in the 2022 Six Nations" Smith? Marcus "man of the match in both England's wins" Smith? Marcus "scored more points for England in those 5 games than Cipriani did in his whole England career" Smith?

I'm inclined to think he deserves his international spot; there's really not much more of a 'step up to international class' which he needs to make IMHO.
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That's one way to describe it. Another is that he was the 10 and playmaker in one of England's worst ever six nations campaigns. He wasn't handicapped by Farrell then either. Maybe I'm being harsh, but when I watch him for England, he often looks uncomfortable and doesn't run the show like he does for his club. Against New Zealand in the autumn, he was absolutely class in the final quarter, though he hasn't done it consistently enough, at least for me.
 
I just don't know about Dombrandt. My ideal 8 is a big lump that carriers well in traffic. Probably a little old fashioned. Bodies hanging off him to make space outside or on the shoulder. If you don't have a big lump it the means you have to play big lumps or in England's case a lock on the flank. Nice lines, quick hands and feet are lovely but surely an 8's main job is to smash the ball up and anyone in the way. However I do accept most of England's current 8's don't have that so we'll have to play to what skills they do have.
 
mike1 said:
That's one way to describe it. Another is that he was the 10 and playmaker in one of England's worst ever six nations campaigns. He wasn't handicapped by Farrell then either. Maybe I'm being harsh, but when I watch him for England, he often looks uncomfortable and doesn't run the show like he does for his club. Against New Zealand in the autumn, he was absolutely class in the final quarter, though he hasn't done it consistently enough, at least for me.
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It’s one of the most pressured positions and ideally you want to be bringing a young FH into an established mid field which he wasn’t, he is also playing behind a pack which at times has been fairly poor, the fact that even you have seen glimpses of brilliance (be it not as consistently as we would like) shows there is potential its hardly like we have a big queue of quality proven FHs in the waiting, FTR I don’t have any objections to Smith and Farrell sharing the shirt at different points in the game and what’s required and against different opposition, I do however have an objection to a Smith Faz combo it’s proven not to work, GF Faz combo has worked to some extent in the past due to their familiarity playing together over the years but even then for chunks of that the pack was performing well, Watson and May were on fire which probably makes it more difficult to determine actual strengths.

BPM said:
Dombrandt has 10 caps and I think 3 starts. 9 of those came under Eddie where he was either being asked to be a heavy carrier (which isn’t his strength) or weirdly brought on to pack down as a flanker late in games. That’s your failed experiment …

He didn’t have a great game on Saturday, but it’s genuinely the first time I’ve seen him asked to play a similar role to what we see at Quins. I’d like to see him given at least a few more games as a starter.

Even if it isn’t a roaring success, it’ll help to evolve a game plan than will also suit Mercer when he’s available. Plus, I’d wager it’ll be better than what Billy would have been bringing.
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I agree and was perhaps being a little hasty I just want to see him transfer some club form, I did caveat it with (unless he can bring his club form), I guess this is a situation where there isn’t exactly an English 8 head and shoulders above others who you’d favour over him either currently.
 
Not one for the WC but I still think Mercer is exactly the sort of 8 England need. Literally everything we want from our 8's he does. He's a better carrier now than Vunipola, is probably only behind Simmonds for speed, has been a lineout jumper, has that little added aggression and also that never say die attitude. It was him who chased down Smith running half the length of the pitch to stop him scoring a try.

Dombrandt, like Simmonds is not really performing well at 8 but then I'd argue the 8 they replaced had been performing even worse. Maybe the issue is we are **** poor at utilising our 8's well and haven't moved away from the idea of having Billy Prime playing there?
 

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