Ireland v England - 19 August 2023

[Deleted member 53362]

Genuinely think this is the worst England team I’ve ever seen. 5 hours since a back scored a try. Absolutely pathetic.

Well fortunately I have seen much worse, there are some great players in this England team but something is a bit off.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

11 Watson
12 Lawrence
13 Marchant
14 Arundell
15 Daly

Watson 15, Tuilagi 12, Marchant wing

Our back 3 options are so bad considering we've got a number of very good, and in form, wingers in the prem to pick from

 

[Arcturus]

Wonder if he could be tempted with a big enough offer, seems like he would suit it brilliantly. Tbh I think Baxter wouldnt be bad at international level either, his strength was building a squad and hiring good asisstant coaches.

Much like the same talk about Edwards last week, you'd have to provide silly money, and even then why would they join such an absolute travesty of a side.

 

[Arcturus]

To add to the above, the whole England setup is a poised chalice, it's rotten with under funding of the grass roots, through to gross mismanagement of the professional setup and then farcical stewardship of the international side.

If the RFU was a business, it would have evaporated long ago, and to be frank we need wholesale reform, and that only starts from the board down, not moving player X to position Y or coach from Team A and C.

 

[Booboobang]

England are absolute guff but in the maddest of twists don’t meet Ireland, NZ or France until the final- mental. They couldn’t wish for a fairer passage but they look utterly clueless. They look like a side trying not to get hammered as opposed to trying to threaten a WC win.

Unfortunately, our key game will be Japan once Argentina utterly destroy us.

The game plan is far too basic. Player revolt incoming a La 2007.

Isnt it ironic that in 2007 the issue was apparently a lack of coaching and being told what to do, and now people are saying the opposite, to let players play with freedom.

Guess it depends on the player, and likely somewhere in the middle is best.

 

[Booboobang]

To add to the above, the whole England setup is a poised chalice, it's rotten with under funding of the grass roots, through to gross mismanagement of the professional setup and then farcical stewardship of the international side.

If the RFU was a business, it would have evaporated long ago, and to be frank we need wholesale reform, and that only starts from the board down, not moving player X to position Y or coach from Team A and C.

One of my comments post this, was saying exactly that, even if borthwick is a problem, and I think he is, he was hired by teh RFU despite all warning signs, Bill sweeney needs to go.

 

[ShropshireAllBlack]

Ireland were, by their standards, poor, and the Monday morning review session will be uncomfortable. However, they have players playing for selection, it’s the first run out for most of the 1st XV together since March. There’s loads that they can & will improve. Earls’ testimonial may have proved to have been a bit of a distraction. They’ll only get better.
On the other hand, England have already had 2 tests including last week with a 1st XV run out. None of the English players would win a place on any of the top ranked teams, based upon the last 3 games. In fact, the only point of interest going into next week’s Fiji game is who will pick up the next suspension. Tuilagi is my bet btw…
Can Borthwick pull a rabbit from a hat between now and the Japan game? (I have written off the Argentina game) It’s unlikely as he has effectively committed himself to the current team & system. With effectively no international games between RWC & 6Ns 2024, do we give him until the end of the 2024 Autumn series?
Were I a blazer at the RFU, I would be looking for a scapegoat. Conor O’Shea is Borthwick’s line manager, and I think he must be feeling more than a little uncomfortable at the moment…..

 

[TopTen2003]

You actually think anyone in this team has the charisma or noggin to lead one?

So far I’m afraid not, based on the press soundbytes. Surely there must be a group within the squad at this point looking at these three performances wondering how this approach can be allowed to go in for a day longer?

It has been woeful.

 

[Zed]

I don't get why Borthwick is persisting with this kick/chase strategy. It's clearly not working. He's an international coach, we're not, but I wonder sometimes if coaches can't see the wood for the trees, can't see what we can see. You'd think he'd be sitting in his office desperately thinking of a plan B. At least if England give away their kicking game and still lose, they've tried something different. Carrying on with a game plan that isn't working is bizarre.

 

[Arcturus]

Had Leicester not got that drop goal in the Premiership final would he be where he is now? Sadly the RFU fudged it in rushing for a replacement before Borthwick had developed as a domestic coach. I think the RFU really wanted Gatland but fudged that as well. Not that Gatland would have made much difference.

What grates me further is people assume the RFU have this endless cash pot to hand out for dismissing the old and acquiring a new coaching setup, yet they're still in a dire financial situation over the Twickenham redevelopment. Another payout means less grassroots development and the base of the game will continue to atrophy.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Had Leicester not got that drop goal in the Premiership final would he be where he is now? Sadly the RFU fudged it in rushing for a replacement before Borthwick had developed as a domestic coach. I think the RFU really wanted Gatland but fudged that as well. Not that Gatland would have made much difference.

What grates me further is people assume the RFU have this endless cash pot to hand out for dismissing the old and acquiring a new coaching setup, yet they're still in a dire financial situation over the Twickenham redevelopment. Another payout means less grassroots development and the base of the game will continue to atrophy.

Agree. But conversely doesn’t the game as a whole need a successful national team?

To show that if a mistake’s worth making you might as well keep making it, Borthwick has a 5 year contract.

 

[TommiG88]

Agree. But conversely doesn’t the game as a whole need a successful national team?

To show that if a mistake’s worth making you might as well keep making it, Borthwick has a 5 year contract.

If Borthwick makes it to the 5th year, they’ll be struggling to sell tickets for twickers.

I’ve turned down a ticket for England Fiji next week as I don’t want to higher my blood pressure

 

[higgik]

Watson 15, Tuilagi 12, Marchant wing

Our back 3 options are so bad considering we've got a number of very good, and in form, wingers in the prem to pick from

TBF Marchant does play a lotvon the wing for Quins, his aerial attack and defence is one of the better ones and he is a strike runner that makes good angles.

 

[Wasps92]

Still feel angry about it this morning.

Feels like it’s slowly turning to apathy though.

 

[Crash Hamster]

I don't get why Borthwick is persisting with this kick/chase strategy. It's clearly not working. He's an international coach, we're not, but I wonder sometimes if coaches can't see the wood for the trees, can't see what we can see. You'd think he'd be sitting in his office desperately thinking of a plan B. At least if England give away their kicking game and still lose, they've tried something different. Carrying on with a game plan that isn't working is bizarre.

It's the statistics.

They suggest that teams which kick the ball away win more games.

It is, of course, misleading.

In the Ashes Tests recently, England's statistics showed that Travis Head was 'vulnerable to the short ball', so they bounced him, constantly.

If all you get is bouncers, you'll probably get out to one eventually, but not until you've got a good score, as Head demonstrated. He also demonstrated that he'd get out to well pitched up bowling if ever anyone bowled it at him. There was a place for bouncing him, but with no variation, he was well set for it.

There's a place for kicking in rugby:
a) to clear your lines or gain significant territory
b) as an attacking move if you're likely to score that phase by doing so
c) if you're about to get thumped into touch and concede a lineout anyway
d) maybe as a surprise variation

I'm open to other suggestions, but will not be including "but, muh statistics" or "we're in the opposition's 22, it's a great idea to kick the ball away aimlessly" on the list.

 

[Welsh Exile]

It's the statistics.

They suggest that teams which kick the ball away win more games.

It is, of course, misleading.

In the Ashes Tests recently, England's statistics showed that Travis Head was 'vulnerable to the short ball', so they bounced him, constantly.

If all you get is bouncers, you'll probably get out to one eventually, but not until you've got a good score, as Head demonstrated. He also demonstrated that he'd get out to well pitched up bowling if ever anyone bowled it at him. There was a place for bouncing him, but with no variation, he was well set for it.

There's a place for kicking in rugby:
a) to clear your lines or gain significant territory
b) as an attacking move if you're likely to score that phase by doing so
c) if you're about to get thumped into touch and concede a lineout anyway
d) maybe as a surprise variation

I'm open to other suggestions, but will not be including "but, muh statistics" or "we're in the opposition's 22, it's a great idea to kick the ball away aimlessly" on the list.

I would add slow ball. Wales and England have had trouble generating quick ball and when the ball is really slow you can’t blame them, some of the time, for kicking. Especially if you’re between the 10m lines.

 

[BrokenWing]

The whole “teams that win kick the ball a lot” should come with the caveat “Well”

 

[Crash Hamster]

I would add slow ball. Wales and England have had trouble generating quick ball and when the ball is really slow you can’t blame them, some of the time, for kicking. Especially if you’re between the 10m lines.

But surely you just give it to Billy Vunipola, who makes metres in the tackle, then clear out quickly and voila, quick ball.

No, I see your point.

 

[higgik]

It's the statistics.

They suggest that teams which kick the ball away win more games.

It is, of course, misleading.

In the Ashes Tests recently, England's statistics showed that Travis Head was 'vulnerable to the short ball', so they bounced him, constantly.

If all you get is bouncers, you'll probably get out to one eventually, but not until you've got a good score, as Head demonstrated. He also demonstrated that he'd get out to well pitched up bowling if ever anyone bowled it at him. There was a place for bouncing him, but with no variation, he was well set for it.

There's a place for kicking in rugby:
a) to clear your lines or gain significant territory
b) as an attacking move if you're likely to score that phase by doing so
c) if you're about to get thumped into touch and concede a lineout anyway
d) maybe as a surprise variation

I'm open to other suggestions, but will not be including "but, muh statistics" or "we're in the opposition's 22, it's a great idea to kick the ball away aimlessly" on the list.

There is always talk of the ABs kicking the most in rugby, but you are so right, they always kick with a purpose, other than to 'hope for a mistake'.
We seem to kick to try and create a mistake, rather than to attack or 'force' the error.
This is an important difference.

 

[Jashay]

I don't get why Borthwick is persisting with this kick/chase strategy. It's clearly not working. He's an international coach, we're not, but I wonder sometimes if coaches can't see the wood for the trees, can't see what we can see. You'd think he'd be sitting in his office desperately thinking of a plan B. At least if England give away their kicking game and still lose, they've tried something different. Carrying on with a game plan that isn't working is bizarre.

Something that commentators mentioned in both the Wales games was Borthwick saying he wanted England to manage at least 1000 kicking metres per match. I don't have the context for the original statement, but on the surface there's a kind of logic to it. His teams averaged that at Tigers, France won the 2022 Grand Slam with the most kicking metres, New Zealand won the 2022 Championship with most kicks from hand... As Crash Hamster mentions, the statistics back it up.

But I worry that Borthwick is falling prey to Goodhart's Law here: "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure"

Kicking was a huge part of France's Grand Slam, but they didn't win because they kicked the most. They won because they kicked really, really, well, and as a consequence had the highest kicking metres.

England's kicking, by contrast, is rubbish. From the Ireland game: on our kick chases we rarely manage to compete, or even to tackle the receiver. Loads of clearing kicks and kicks for territory are going very centrally with no pressure, giving the opponents a good attacking platform. I don't remember any of England's kicks finding grass, which probably means we're not dragging their back three out of position (kind of makes sense given how predictable our attacks were).

There were a few times where we managed to drop one in a good spot and smash the receiver/pressure the return kick, but they were few and far between.

So I imagine SB is persisting with kicking because it's a key part of how all the best teams attack. The problem is we suck at it