Ireland v England - 19 August 2023

[ShropshireAllBlack]

Not sure that's how it works. They are after all different people. Farrell Snr is the head coach and also has his son as an underperforming captain. Far easier for Lancaster to slot into a head technical role than Farrell to jump as head coach

Yes, they're both different people who were both run out of Twickenham by a media frenzy in 2015. They can be both different people who have discovered that working outside the English crucible is more pleasant and fulfilling than working inside it…

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Why are we talking about Lancaster? Ewww

 

[Booboobang]

The talk of farrell and lancaster just highlight that the major issue is above coaching, borthwick is bad, but lord we hada coaching ticket of two of the best in europe and ran them of after an embarrasing exit mostly brought about by board meddling bringing in a big name player.

Borthwick should be doing better, but untill the board is changed its unlikely things actually get better.

 

[Zed]

There's a place for kicking in rugby:
a) to clear your lines or gain significant territory
b) as an attacking move if you're likely to score that phase by doing so
c) if you're about to get thumped into touch and concede a lineout anyway
d) maybe as a surprise variation

I'm open to other suggestions, but will not be including "but, muh statistics" or "we're in the opposition's 22, it's a great idea to kick the ball away aimlessly" on the list.

Yup for sure.

 

[Zed]

England/Borthwick have lost sight of what rugby is about and are being way too clinical. You need a gameplan, you need structure, but ultimately it should be down to the players to determine how they play the game. Follow a specific strategy, but loosely. They should still be playing instinctively and playing what's in front of them. It's on here, we're having a go... I get the impression they are box-kicking, for example, because that's what they've been told to do, not what they think they should do. Way too robotic.

Ireland's first try, came from an England box kick; why would you give the number 1 team in the world the ball on the halfway line when you have possession, even if it's in your 22? Surely the players would be scratching their heads, questioning the tactics. You do that at club level, you're going to get your arse chewed by the forwards.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Just read that Marchant missed 5 tackles - as many as he made. Manu, Daly and Youngs all missing 3 each.

That's shocking.

 

[higgik]

Just read that Marchant missed 5 tackles - as many as he made. Manu, Daly and Youngs all missing 3 each.

That's shocking.

But those could be because of system failure as well.
Watching the first try, it looks like Stuart missed the tackle, but it coukd have been the miscommunication between him and the player inside that created a big gap.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Stuart's 2 tackles 1 missed vs Sinckler 8 tackles 0 missed is pretty wild
1 carry vs 4, as well

Our metres carried isn't too dissimilar to Ireland's,
Keenan got the most on the pitch but then Steward, Ford and Smith were 2nd/3rd/4th, which is mad considering the success we had with it
Billy did 24m, which is insane considering he's meant to be out biggest carrying option and our kick returner

 

[higgik]

Stuart's 2 tackles 1 missed vs Sinckler 8 tackles 0 missed is pretty wild
1 carry vs 4, as well

Our metres carried isn't too dissimilar to Ireland's,
Keenan got the most on the pitch but then Steward, Ford and Smith were 2nd/3rd/4th, which is mad considering the success we had with it
Billy did 24m, which is insane considering he's meant to be out biggest carrying option and our kick returner

Just shows that if you get Sinckler in the right mood he can still be an asset.
Why did he look different this week to last week, when he loojed disinterested, maybe a session on the bench worked.

Itoje could have the same thing done to get him up.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Might just be me but I'd have dropped any player that blows hot/cold and told them to sort their head out.

We shouldn't be having international players who can't even 'get up' for a game.

Only problem is there isn't really an alternative.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Only problem is there isn't really an alternative.

There might be if we hadn't named our team several weeks too early

 

[Geordie]

There might be if we hadn't named our team several weeks too early

Who is the alternative Tight heads?

I would drop Stuart instantly,...but who comes in? Im not Sincklers biggest fan either.

Theres a few positions we can ask the same question?
Scrum half...drop Youngs and Care...absolutely but who comes in?

Quirkes form...he couldnt get past Warr?
Randall...meh

Who else.

And it goes on for most positions....

The only faintest glimmer of hope is that the U20 and U18s currently have some hugely hopeful players who need to be developed properly...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Who is the alternative Tight heads?

I would drop Stuart instantly,...but who comes in? Im not Sincklers biggest fan either.

Nick Schonert
Not as dynamic as the likes of Sinckler but comfortably the best scrummaging option available

Theres a few positions we can ask the same question?
Scrum half...drop Youngs and Care...absolutely but who comes in?

Quirkes form...he couldnt get past Warr?

Call Warr in, then?
He's English, was the best 9 in the prem last season, and has been coached by and then played with one of our 10s. Seems a no brainer IMO

And it goes on for most positions....

TBH I think there's players in almost every position we could call up. I'm not pessimistic about the player stocks, just the coaching/gameplans we're putting up at international level.

1. VRR/Obano
2. Langdon
3. Schonert
4/5. That's where it gets trickier, tbh, though I think our crop of locks is very good, just need the confidence/form
6/7. Doesn't need improvement, but there's Pearson and T.Willis in the background
8. T.Willis/Mercer
9. Warr
10. Doesn't need improvement, just needs the form/confidence back
11/14: Freeman, Murley, Radwan, Roebuck
12/13: Kelly, Dingwall
15: Doesn't really need it (I know it's in vogue to not like Steward atm but I still rate him - Watson would be my second choice), but there's Carpenter, who was one of the top 15s in the league last season, and if Arundell was deemed experienced enough then Joe certainly is

 

[Geordie]

The get Schonert in....we need rock solid stability at 3. Not a playmaker.
I agree...get Warr in..his lack of selection was a little short sighted from Borthwick i think.

I agree theres players in most positions...most untried. Big failing of Eddie Jones in that regards.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Nick Schonert
Not as dynamic as the likes of Sinckler but comfortably the best scrummaging option available


Call Warr in, then?
He's English, was the best 9 in the prem last season, and has been coached by and then played with one of our 10s. Seems a no brainer IMO


TBH I think there's players in almost every position we could call up. I'm not pessimistic about the player stocks, just the coaching/gameplans we're putting up at international level.

1. VRR/Obano
2. Langdon
3. Schonert
4/5. That's where it gets trickier, tbh, though I think our crop of locks is very good, just need the confidence/form
6/7. Doesn't need improvement, but there's Pearson and T.Willis in the background
8. T.Willis/Mercer
9. Warr
10. Doesn't need improvement, just needs the form/confidence back
11/14: Freeman, Murley, Radwan, Roebuck
12/13: Kelly, Dingwall
15: Doesn't really need it (I know it's in vogue to not like Steward atm but I still rate him - Watson would be my second choice), but there's Carpenter, who was one of the top 15s in the league last season, and if Arundell was deemed experienced enough then Joe certainly is

What's happened to Dan Kelly? Eligible for us in July next year and we could use a younger out and out 13 considering Hume hasn't worked out.

I wouldn't like it but it would be stupid to pass the opportunity if it was there.

 

[Geordie]

What's happened to Dan Kelly? Eligible for us in July next year and we could use a younger out and out 13 considering Hume hasn't worked out.

I wouldn't like it but it would be stupid to pass the opportunity if it was there.

Good question about Kelly - although hes an out and out 12 not 13. Had a few injury hiccups but should have been in this squad. Again the only glimmer we have 3/4 actual 12s coming through who "could" finally give us the 12 we've missed since Greenwood.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What's happened to Dan Kelly? Eligible for us in July next year and we could use a younger out and out 13 considering Hume hasn't worked out.

I wouldn't like it but it would be stupid to pass the opportunity if it was there.

Lots of injuries - was very surprised he didn't get called in tbh, especially as he finished the season fit and he was Borthwick's first choice when he was at Tigers, not sure if there's something we're not privvy to that's seen him miss out (lingering injury, or whatever)
Wouldn't say he's a 13 anymore though, plays exclusively at 12 for Tigers and has since he progressed to senior rugby

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Nick Schonert
Not as dynamic as the likes of Sinckler but comfortably the best scrummaging option available

And yet he can't get a sniff behind a wannabe fly half, a bloke who's, er, big with a bad haircut and Methuselah.

Our best scrummager's at home, our fastest wing is at home, our best number 8 is at home, if you listen to Olyy one of our best 9s is at home, our only play making centre's at home……

Simmonds and Nowell having a good laugh from France. Presumably post RWC all of Ribbans, Arundell, J Willis and Marchant will also be ineligible plus how many more will tread that path - if there are places available it really could become a flood.

Post tournament, international retirements, whether on their terms or otherwise, surely beckon for Cole, Lawes, Binny, Youngs, Care, Manu & Marler. George may hang around until replacements emerge but like Farrell his best days are in the rear view mirror.

Others who should be at their very peak just aren't showing it - Sinckler, Itoje, Genge and Watson.

It really is a mess, and the tone of the press is changing.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

if you listen to Olyy one of our best 9s is at home

 

[Geordie]

And yet he can't get a sniff behind a wannabe fly half, a bloke who's, er, big with a bad haircut and Methuselah.

Our best scrummager's at home, our fastest wing is at home, our best number 8 is at home, if you listen to Olyy one of our best 9s is at home, our only play making centre's at home……

Simmonds and Nowell having a good laugh from France. Presumably post RWC all of Ribbans, Arundell, J Willis and Marchant will also be ineligible plus how many more will tread that path - if there are places available it really could become a flood.

Post tournament, international retirements, whether on their terms or otherwise, surely beckon for Cole, Lawes, Binny, Youngs, Care, Manu & Marler. George may hang around until replacements emerge but like Farrell his best days are in the rear view mirror.

Others who should be at their very peak just aren't showing it - Sinckler, Itoje, Genge and Watson.

It really is a mess, and the tone of the press is changing.

I agree....and ive generally been remaining positive that it will improve. Sadly my positivity is going.