Ireland v Samoa - 26 August 2023

[Leonormous Boozer]

This will be a game. Hopefully one with no injuries to make this our most stress free build up to a RWC ever?

 

[ShropshireAllBlack]

I suspect that it will largely be a second string team or anyone who hasn't had a run out such as Murray. I think any news on Sheehan will play a bigger role in Monday's announcement than anyone tearing up trees against Samoa.
Samoa are arguably the strongest of the PI teams. Their performance on Saturday could be an indication of whether England needs to worry about them in the pool.

 

[Groundhog]

I honestly don't think there's value in this game, but I could see us going reasonably strong here to be honest with our more injury prone or older players rested. Think likes of Crowley, Murray, Baird and McCarthy will play

 

[ShropshireAllBlack]

I honestly don't think there's value in this game, but I could see us going reasonably strong here to be honest with our more injury prone or older players rested. Think likes of Crowley, Murray, Baird and McCarthy will play

I think the management team are trying to recreate competition week conditions with travel, weather, late kick off etc. And, as we saw on Saturday, we're still looking a little undercooked.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

This game will show the difference of playing together, and playing against top teams.

Ireland play a lot of games and a lot against top teams, and of course most of them play for Leinster who also play a lot of rugby.

Samoa on the other hand have played far fewer games and played only one game against six nations or rugby championship teams since the last World Cup, and it was italy so it hardly counts. Also, even when they have played, they have not had all their top players available.

You might argue coaching is another factor differentiating these teams, but If samoa had had irelands coaches I hardly see it would have made that much of a difference.

Players? Sure Ireland has got good players but I don't see that as being as much of a factor as game time together. Samoa has some good players too.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

This game will show the difference of playing together, and playing against top teams.

Ireland play a lot of games and a lot against top teams, and of course most of them play for Leinster who also play a lot of rugby.

Samoa on the other hand have played far fewer games and played only one game against six nations or rugby championship teams since the last World Cup, and it was italy so it hardly counts. Also, even when they have played, they have not had all their top players available.

You might argue coaching is another factor differentiating these teams, but If samoa had had irelands coaches I hardly see it would have made that much of a difference.

Players? Sure Ireland has got good players but I don't see that as being as much of a factor as game time together. Samoa has some good players too.

Italy and Scotland have plenty of playing time together and it's been 10 and 7 years since either beat us. I reckon having good players is a fairly huge factor too.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Italy and Scotland have plenty of playing time together and it's been 10 and 7 years since either beat us. I reckon having good players is a fairly huge factor too.

IMO Samoa has better players than italy and scotland, after discounting the experience the Italians and scots get by playing together against top teams.

Plus italy and scotland don't have a Leinster equivalent.

I'm not saying samoa would be better than Ireland if they had as much game time together, more that they could be competitive

Put it this way. If in a parallel universe samoa had a Leinster equivalent and got to play as many top tests as Ireland does, and ireland instead had their players scattered around like samoa does and the ireland team never played top nations in tests, who do you think would win? I'd pick samoa. Yes they won't win as often or as convincingly as Ireland would against samoa in our real universe, but they'd still be odds on to win.

the coaches having time together with the players makes a massive difference too. It's hard to even tell if the samoa coaches are any good as they haven't had the chance to have any time with their players.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

IMO Samoa has better players than italy and scotland, after discounting the experience the Italians and scots get by playing together against top teams.

Plus italy and scotland don't have a Leinster equivalent.

I'm not saying samoa would be better than Ireland if they had as much game time together, more that they could be competitive

Put it this way. If in a parallel universe samoa had a Leinster equivalent and got to play as many top tests as Ireland does, and ireland instead had their players scattered around like samoa does and the ireland team never played top nations in tests, who do you think would win? I'd pick samoa. Yes they won't win as often or as convincingly as Ireland would against samoa in our real universe, but they'd still be odds on to win.

But really, when I think about it, it's not just playing together it's the coaches having time together with the players too. And for that the coaches do matter. But it's hard to tell if the samoa coaches are any good as they haven't had the chance to have any time with their players.

Exposure to tier 1 games is only a part of that though isn't it, the current top 4 in the world have strong development systems, high performing clubs, either a centralised club system or a strong relationship between clubs and country and consistent and focused coaching, everyone else is missing some of those and are a bit behind because of it. I think what Ireland do with players between years 16-20 is the biggest gulf here.

I find this thread a weird place to make the point you did, there's a total gulf in everything between the two sides, talent, experience, consistency, coaching, none of it is equal. England v Fiji will probably go the way you suggest. But the Top 4 are leading at all aspects of the game right now and for the last 18 months Ireland are at the top. We're not some systems team that are a tough nut to crack, it's a world class outfit with plenty of world class talent that Samoa simply don't have.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

 

[Groundhog]

It's a disinterested 'ok sounds good' from me dawg

 

[collace]

Looks like Stockdale's goose is cooked then with Earls going. You would imagine if he was making the plane he would have been somewhere in the 23 here.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Looks like Stockdale's goose is cooked then with Earls going. You would imagine if he was making the plane he would have been somewhere in the 23 here.

Two imports, an octogenarian and a utility back covering the wings. Feel like a few Ulster lads could be fitting in there if not for injuries and the post-breakout Ulster slump all of their backs seem to experience.

 

[collace]

Biggest disappointment for me has been Balacoune. When he broke through I genuinely thought he would be a regular starter for Ireland but unfortunately he just hasn't kicked on. Seems to be a trend with our lads - Balacoune, Hume, Lowry to name a few.

 

[munstermuffin]

Looks like Stockdale's goose is cooked then with Earls going. You would imagine if he was making the plane he would have been somewhere in the 23 here.

Yeah Frawley, Prendergast and Stockdale I think are out of equation. Kilcoyne vs Loughman and Hooker call are last 2

 

[big ginger 8]

'We expect him to be fit for the World Cup' - Farrell provides positive update on Sheehan https://the42.ie/6149755

 

[Smurfy]

'We expect him to be fit for the World Cup' - Farrell provides positive update on Sheehan https://the42.ie/6149755

That would be absolutely brilliant.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

IMO Samoa has better players than italy and scotland, after discounting the experience the Italians and scots get by playing together against top teams.

Plus italy and scotland don't have a Leinster equivalent.

I'm not saying samoa would be better than Ireland if they had as much game time together, more that they could be competitive

Put it this way. If in a parallel universe samoa had a Leinster equivalent and got to play as many top tests as Ireland does, and ireland instead had their players scattered around like samoa does and the ireland team never played top nations in tests, who do you think would win? I'd pick samoa. Yes they won't win as often or as convincingly as Ireland would against samoa in our real universe, but they'd still be odds on to win.

the coaches having time together with the players makes a massive difference too. It's hard to even tell if the samoa coaches are any good as they haven't had the chance to have any time with their players.

There is an excellent Youtube video out there I saw a couple of years ago using this as the explanation for why Ireland, Wales and Scotland closed the gap on SANZAAR in the last 10-15 years. Because they can have key combinations of players playing together at club level (which NZ, Aus and SA had started years earlier, which gave them a jump).

Samoa have Moana Pasifika in Super Rugby and, although not Tier1, have just played Tonga, Fiji and Japan. Decent prep, albeit lacking a strong pack to test themselves against. Georgia and Uruguay would kill to have Samoa's circumstances going into the RWC (although at least Georgia have Scotland this weekend).

I think Samoa would comfortably beat Italy if they had an equal footing, but Scotland would be a step too far. The native Scottish backs and backrowers are genuinely top tier and they are able to import better tight five options than Samoa could produce / import.

 

[Booboobang]

There is an excellent Youtube video out there I saw a couple of years ago using this as the explanation for why Ireland, Wales and Scotland closed the gap on SANZAAR in the last 10-15 years. Because they can have key combinations of players playing together at club level (which NZ, Aus and SA had started years earlier, which gave them a jump).

Samoa have Moana Pasifika in Super Rugby and, although not Tier1, have just played Tonga, Fiji and Japan. Decent prep, albeit lacking a strong pack to test themselves against. Georgia and Uruguay would kill to have Samoa's circumstances going into the RWC (although at least Georgia have Scotland this weekend).

I think Samoa would comfortably beat Italy if they had an equal footing, but Scotland would be a step too far. The native Scottish backs and backrowers are genuinely top tier and they are able to import better tight five options than Samoa could produce / import.

Not sure the tight 5 thing holds when you consider 3/4 scottish locks for the WC where born in scotland. and only 2 project players in general in the tight 5, although you can argue the british vs scottish thing for some of them. Majority still born scottish, so think it is pretty clear they can produce those positions.

 

[Booboobang]

IMO Samoa has better players than italy and scotland, after discounting the experience the Italians and scots get by playing together against top teams.

Plus italy and scotland don't have a Leinster equivalent.

I'm not saying samoa would be better than Ireland if they had as much game time together, more that they could be competitive

Put it this way. If in a parallel universe samoa had a Leinster equivalent and got to play as many top tests as Ireland does, and ireland instead had their players scattered around like samoa does and the ireland team never played top nations in tests, who do you think would win? I'd pick samoa. Yes they won't win as often or as convincingly as Ireland would against samoa in our real universe, but they'd still be odds on to win.

the coaches having time together with the players makes a massive difference too. It's hard to even tell if the samoa coaches are any good as they haven't had the chance to have any time with their players.

On current numbers? Nah. If you are making this argument about fiji sure its atleast plausible, but scotlands player base is more talented.

If you are talking about if resources where matched etc then you could say any country could be amazing. But at current state, the majority of samoas great players arent even samoan born.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Exposure to tier 1 games is only a part of that though isn't it, the current top 4 in the world have strong development systems, high performing clubs, either a centralised club system or a strong relationship between clubs and country and consistent and focused coaching, everyone else is missing some of those and are a bit behind because of it. I think what Ireland do with players between years 16-20 is the biggest gulf here.

I find this thread a weird place to make the point you did, there's a total gulf in everything between the two sides, talent, experience, consistency, coaching, none of it is equal. England v Fiji will probably go the way you suggest. But the Top 4 are leading at all aspects of the game right now and for the last 18 months Ireland are at the top. We're not some systems team that are a tough nut to crack, it's a world class outfit with plenty of world class talent that Samoa simply don't have.

All your points are valid except suggesting that this was a weird place to make my point. It's a good place and the best place available right now because Ireland are the epitome of a team that has had lots of time together against top opposition and samoa are the epitome of a team that hasn't

Fiji england doesn't make the point as well at all because at least fiji have now had 8 tests this cycle against rugby championship or six nations sides, and england hasn't made the most of the opportunities they've been given - their team keeps changing, their strategies and coaches keep changing, their culture is poor. More importantly they don't have a Leinster equivalent

If samoa were playing scotland the point may have been better, but they're not. And scotland doesn't quite have a Leinster equivalent.
.
I feel your sensitivity to people thinking Irish players aren't great is getting in your way here. I'm not denying the Irish players are great. But then part of what makes them great is also all of that other stuff you mention. So maybe a better point would have been that this game will show the difference between being the most professional tier one team and everything that comes with that versus being a tier 2 team.