England 2024/25

[BPM]

Okay sure, but the other fetcher flankers we have (Curry x2, Underhill, Pepper) are also good carriers, so in that regard he's still not really bringing anything different to what we already have.

Will concede the point about lineouts though, but I think most are agreed that that shouldn't really be a primary criteria for back row selection, especially for a guy who is realistically competing for the 7 shirt.

I wouldn't select a back row player solely on lineout ability but in Kenningham's case, we're talking about a guy who is also topping turnover stats and is a good carrier. If we take Pepper, Ilione and Pearson as the most reasonable comparisons (the Curry twins are on a different level IMO). I'd argue he's the most complete player who is often a standout in an average team.

What is the 'something different' Ilione is really bringing and is it better than what Kenningham is showing as a starter week in, week out. I'd argue, no.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I wouldn't select a back row player solely on lineout ability but in Kenningham's case, we're talking about a guy who is also topping turnover stats and is a good carrier. If we take Pepper, Ilione and Pearson as the most reasonable comparisons (the Curry twins are on a different level IMO). I'd argue he's the most complete player who is often a standout in an average team.

What is the 'something different' Ilione is really bringing and is it better than what Kenningham is showing as a starter week in, week out. I'd argue, no.

I mean, this is kind of exactly my point. The Curry twins, and I'd argue a firing Underhill, are on a different level so Kenningham is never really going to beat them at their own game and get himself a regular place in the 23.

Ilione brings a real size and physicality that I think we're currently lacking outside of T. Willis. I don't think he's ever likely to be an objectively better player than the Currys or Underhill, but he could play a regular role in the 23 by bringing a brutish element that they don't already bring.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Personally I'm biased but I think Ilione has a insane ceiling especially as a 6

Considering this is his first proper season at senior level and he's still working doctors hours

Something he is that must not be underestimated is he is clutch also

The amount of turnovers he has made coming off the bench in an crucial time in our own 22 has been crazy

 

[Ddanno]

Underhill is usually concussed and T Curry is probably going to have to retire within 2 years, so there's definitely an argument for blooding more flankers. I don't know that carrying is the most pressing issue with Genge, Stuart, Chessum, Itoje, Willis all firing.

 

[Ddanno]

And CCS.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

What would an England bomb squad look like currently if fully fit?

( I wouldn't be surprised if Borthwick might try to favour it with Pollock coming through)

 

[Ddanno]

What would an England bomb squad look like currently if fully fit?

Enthusiastic and incompetent (compared to the Boks)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Got quite a lot of proper impact-esque players coming through atm tbf

Obv part of the impact of the bomb squad is they're all seasoned starter-level internationals, but if you want energy/power/exuberance to make tired players hearts drop then

16. Tuipolotu
17. Haffar (thinking of the final few Saints games where he was on fire)
18. Asher
19. Kpoku
20. Pollock
21. Ilione

All with a couple more seasons under their belt would be a horrible sight to see for the opposition

 

[Ddanno]

I'd have Baxter, Hill and CCS in the mix

 

[Ddanno]

My flippant comment above aside, and as Olyy implies, we do have a bench that should be able to absolutely ******* terrorise sides pretty soon

 

[Ddanno]

Bring on Tuipolotou, Baxter, AOF, Hill, Ilione, whichever SH actually gets their act together, a Smith and Radwan and no non England fan will be happy

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Bring on Tuipolotou, Baxter, AOF, Hill, Ilione, whichever SH actually gets their act together, a Smith and Radwan and no non England fan will be happy

To go on a slight tangent, I really don’t like specialist wingers on the bench, especially as an impact option. There’s just too much chance that they get shut out of the game and only get 1 or 2 touches of the ball. Would much rather have a hard-carrying centre who you can guarantee is gonna get 10+ touches.

 

[Ddanno]

To go on a slight tangent, I really don't like specialist wingers on the bench, especially as an impact option. There's just too much chance that they get shut out of the game and only get 1 or 2 touches of the ball. Would much rather have a hard-carrying centre who you can guarantee is gonna get 10+ touches.

Yeah fair. I would like us to move on from Daly and Slade as utility backs but am slightly struggling to think of any

Freeman maybe but he needs to be starting anyway, and I'm not going to back him at 13 until Saints are regularly playing him there

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Maybe Beard or Butt as centres that can cover wing?
(Plus I just wanted to say Beard or Butt)

More realistically I think it'd be a M.Smith (or down the line, if the trajectory continues: C.Donohue comes into the frame) as 10/15 cover with Freeman covering centre from the pitch (or Pollock/Earl covering centre - I'd be very surprised if SB doesn't shift Pollock there at some point, he looks even more suited to the backs than Earl does)

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I mean I’d say that Daly did enough in the 6N, especially off the bench, to earn himself a place in the 23 going forward.

 

[Ddanno]

I mean I'd say that Daly did enough in the 6N, especially off the bench, to earn himself a place in the 23 going forward.

Agreed, he's just getting on a bit and has lost a yard of pace

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, no qualms with Daly for now but he'll be knocking on the door of 35 at the next world cup which is pushing it for a back 3 player


On W.Butt - I wonder if he'll look to move on from Bath? He had a really good season but it's gonna be tough to get game time when his first choice position is 12 and there's Lawrence, Redpath and Ojomoh at the same club (though Lawrence and Redpath are frequently injured, I suppose)

 

[Ddanno]

Yeah, no qualms with Daly for now but he'll be knocking on the door of 35 at the next world cup which is pushing it for a back 3 player

My point made better than I did. Daly and Slade should be mentoring their successors (maybe Slade not so much given how he hasn't quite ever lived up to his potential) rather than continuing to be mainstays in the team.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

For the nearish future I'd be building toward:
9. Mitchell
10. F. Smith
11. Freeman
12. Dingwall/Ojomoh
13. Lawrence (whichever of Dingwall/Ojomoh doesn’t start at 12 can play here until Lawrence is fit)
14. IFW
15. Furbank

21. JVP
22. M. Smith
23. Daly

 

[Ddanno]

Have to get Lawrence, IFW and Furbank fit first, but I like it