Ok so its really only this season hes had a "bad" one, which most rugby players will probably go through at some stage
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- Thread starter TRF_Olyy
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Yep, Itoje’s fitness record is freakish indeed.
Chessum’s had his fair share of injuries though. Just over the last couple of years, something like:
Fractured ankle in March 23 that had his RWC in doubt at one point, but he made it.
Then there was a shoulder surgery that meant he missed the summer tour last year. Then he damaged a knee in England training causing him to miss the Autumn games and was parachuted back in to the 6N with only 55 minutes game time under his belt.
So he’s been on the pitch but he’s had injuries and whether he’s been rushed back too soon after them is another matter. Ditto Martin and you’re absolutely right that he needs a good preseason.
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Don’t disagree although consistently well short of the 30 limit - and given how good he can be you’d think coaches would be looking to play him if possible.
In the 24 6N he missed 2 games and was parachuted back in having not played for 6 weeks. This year he played 2 before getting ruled out of the rest of the tournament and also missing the summer - possibly Lions, possibly England.
He’s been good for England in the last couple of years but I’d say not as influential as we saw in 23 when I thought he was changing the whole dynamic of our pack. Seems to have been managing knee issues since.
Martin was a beast against the SA pack in that semi final and that wasn’t even two years ago yet
I feel people have a distorted perception of time.
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I definitely feel he gives our pack some power which is often missing. His poor games have often been when carrying a knock.
For the last 5 years - absolutely - society wide.
For people over the age about 35-40ish - absolutely, and it's absolutely normal human behaviour
(sorry)
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He absolutely was. And those are the standards he’s set to be judged by. Potential superstar, not shirt filler.
OK, not literally 2 calendar years yet, but we’ve subsequently been through 2 6N campaigns, an AI series and now a second summer where his involvement or influence has been limited or less than his impact of 21 months ago. Sport moves on very quickly and that’s starting to become an extended period where we’ve not seen the superstar we all hoped to.
He still has plenty of time of course but there have been injuries and if the knee is a recurrent problem, that is concerning.
Yeah that's my general feeling on Martin. That performance against South Africa made people stand up and think hang on we've got a monster here to compete with the toughest and best.
But we've not seen that in any consistent basis since that. Chessum even with his injuries has grown and is a lion putting in MOTM level performances.
The problem is also we judge everyone on Itoje who is a freak and many of us probably under appreciate.....
Injury or not, feels like Martin vs South Africa was a 9/10 but his other games have been 6.5/10 by that comparison. Not playing badly just not as good as he has been.
Whereas for me Chessum is a 8/10 player every game. Both great but Martin is judged against his own top end rather than others standards.
Whereas for me Chessum is a 8/10 player every game. Both great but Martin is judged against his own top end rather than others standards.
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If an 6.5/10 Martin is better than others then he plays. But once in the side it’s a combined responsibility of coaches and players themselves to consistently get the best out of them.
If his 9/10 had been against Wales or Italy we’d have long forgotten it. But it wasn’t, context is everything, and there were other influential performances too. so that’s what he can do and we want to see him consistently there or thereabouts again. And going back to the original point I think injury has definitely hampered his progress.
Same goes for any player.
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I've noticed from the comments what appears to be a trend of parachuting players in.
This surely can't help with injuries.
This surely can't help with injuries.
I don't watch too much of tigers so can't say for club but him in an England shirt has been unmatched, some games better than others but always has huge physicality no one else in the England setup can bring, would be great to see him well managed and have a descent England career, we don't need another Manu situation.
Wasn’t he excellent against Ireland 6 nations before last when England beat Ireland, think he surprised a few with his head to head IIRC.
Gonna be really interesting to see how much changes for the USA game, because a lot of the main test players are incredibly green and could use the game time
Like I'd like to see Ojomoh play...but Atkinson has been great and I'd like to see him again too! If Northmore failed a HIA then that opens it up a bit though
Maybe something like (and this is assuming Dan and Northmore are out)
Rodd, Langdon, AOF
Coles, Ewels
Curry (c), Pepper, Willis
JvP, Atkinson
Murley, Atkinson, Beard, Roebuck
Carpenter
A.N.Other, Baxter, Fasogbon, Clark, Hill, Randall, Ojomoh, IFW
Tough to pick a back 5 of the scrum - I've left Curry in just because he's a club captain and if we don't play Ford then who does it go to? Ewels? If so then Hill could start at 6
Maybe they'll just roll the test side again with only enforced changes
Like I'd like to see Ojomoh play...but Atkinson has been great and I'd like to see him again too! If Northmore failed a HIA then that opens it up a bit though
Maybe something like (and this is assuming Dan and Northmore are out)
Rodd, Langdon, AOF
Coles, Ewels
Curry (c), Pepper, Willis
JvP, Atkinson
Murley, Atkinson, Beard, Roebuck
Carpenter
A.N.Other, Baxter, Fasogbon, Clark, Hill, Randall, Ojomoh, IFW
Tough to pick a back 5 of the scrum - I've left Curry in just because he's a club captain and if we don't play Ford then who does it go to? Ewels? If so then Hill could start at 6
Maybe they'll just roll the test side again with only enforced changes
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I wonder if they will fly anyone out if Dan and Northmore are both out. Feels unlikely but who knows.
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I feel with Slade out and George to the Lions then Ford will definitely play. He's our only truly experienced player and I can't see Borthwick dropping him even if it is the USA. Dan will also start unless he's out of the tour.Gonna be really interesting to see how much changes for the USA game, because a lot of the main test players are incredibly green and could use the game time
Like I'd like to see Ojomoh play...but Atkinson has been great and I'd like to see him again too! If Northmore failed a HIA then that opens it up a bit though
Maybe something like (and this is assuming Dan and Northmore are out)
Rodd, Langdon, AOF
Coles, Ewels
Curry (c), Pepper, Willis
JvP, Atkinson
Murley, Atkinson, Beard, Roebuck
Carpenter
A.N.Other, Baxter, Fasogbon, Clark, Hill, Randall, Ojomoh, IFW
Tough to pick a back 5 of the scrum - I've left Curry in just because he's a club captain and if we don't play Ford then who does it go to? Ewels? If so then Hill could start at 6
Maybe they'll just roll the test side again with only enforced changes
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They have to for Dan, can't play with 1 hooker.
I played with one hooker before. Was a great evening.
They might have to fly out two, not sure what the rules are about travelling reserves for specialised positions - unless one of the props has it in their paperwork that they can cover in an emergency
I don't like having zero FH cover, even against T2 sides. If Ford had gone down in the first half today I doubt we win
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Yeah, I'd go similar but leave Ford in with Charlie Atkinson on the bench. I wouldn't be surprised to see IFW start.Gonna be really interesting to see how much changes for the USA game, because a lot of the main test players are incredibly green and could use the game time
Like I'd like to see Ojomoh play...but Atkinson has been great and I'd like to see him again too! If Northmore failed a HIA then that opens it up a bit though
Maybe something like (and this is assuming Dan and Northmore are out)
Rodd, Langdon, AOF
Coles, Ewels
Curry (c), Pepper, Willis
JvP, Atkinson
Murley, Atkinson, Beard, Roebuck
Carpenter
A.N.Other, Baxter, Fasogbon, Clark, Hill, Randall, Ojomoh, IFW
Tough to pick a back 5 of the scrum - I've left Curry in just because he's a club captain and if we don't play Ford then who does it go to? Ewels? If so then Hill could start at 6
Maybe they'll just roll the test side again with only enforced changes
Yep. I imagine Oghre's the most likely.
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