USA news & politics

[Ddanno]

I'll respond in full when I get home but there are key bits missed off here

Spare yourself the totally useless bother of replying at all.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You can do those things without both siding things. I mean, you're not seriously suggesting that anything Hitler and thenNazis did was legitimate are you?

You know it is possible for historians to looks at the facts and go from there. You can recognise the treaty of Versailles and harsh economic climate and a million other things without going "well, you know, the Nazis kind of felt cornered and it was understandable they felt that way" just as it would be compete and utter rubbish to do something similar with Putins invasion of Ukraine.

 

[dirty harry]

You can do those things without both siding things. I mean, you're not seriously suggesting that anything Hitler and thenNazis did was legitimate are you?

You know it is possible for historians to looks at the facts and go from there. You can recognise the treaty of Versailles and harsh economic climate and a million other things without going "well, you know, the Nazis kind of felt cornered and it was understandable they felt that way" just as it would be compete and utter rubbish to do something similar with Putins invasion of Ukraine.

Of course they did a lot of legitimate things...

Their mobilisation of thebwork force, and increasing infrastructure, theor early economic work increased living standards, youth fitness levels increased across the country, operation paperclip utilised German science and scientists, guided weaponry took a huge leap in development back then, synthetic rubber was a huge thing also, infact we still perform the Berlin Olympics popularised torch relay today, and dont forget the biggies, Jagermeister and the VW Beetle.

Now we can absolutely condemn the party, but acknowledge they produced some legitimate contributions to the world

 

[Welsh Exile]

Of course they did a lot of legitimate things...

Their mobilisation of thebwork force, and increasing infrastructure, theor early economic work increased living standards, youth fitness levels increased across the country, operation paperclip utilised German science and scientists, guided weaponry took a huge leap in development back then, synthetic rubber was a huge thing also, infact we still perform the Berlin Olympics popularised torch relay today, and dont forget the biggies, Jagermeister and the VW Beetle.

Now we can absolutely condemn the party, but acknowledge they produced some legitimate contributions to the world

Oh come on, that's clearly not what I meant. The context of the conversation, and maybe I didn't articulate this well enough, is war. Are you telling me that if you could go back to 1939 when Hitler invaded Poland that you would be saying "hey, come on guys, we have to really understand how Hitler and the Nazis feel about things and understand why they are doing what they are doing. I know Lebansraum sounds like a load of old rubbish but they feel like they need to spread out a bit, come on guys."

 

[Gavin]

 

[dirty harry]

Oh come on, that's clearly not what I meant. The context of the conversation, and maybe I didn't articulate this well enough, is war. Are you telling me that if you could go back to 1939 when Hitler invaded Poland that you would be saying "hey, come on guys, we have to really understand how Hitler and the Nazis feel about things and understand why they are doing what they are doing. I know Lebansraum sounds like a load of old rubbish but they feel they need to spread a bit, come on guys."

Wasn't that the general British politicians take at the time?

But my point about 2 siding things, and hindsight sight telling the true story, os not that you have to weight both sides equally, like I can condemn Russias invasion to the Ukraine, whilst acknowledging the role NATO played in antagonising them. That doesnt justify Russias invasion, but it clarifies the situation more roundly. To acknowledge that the Russians believe that promises were broken by NATO, and to acknowledge NATOs response gives us a better view in to the complexities of the invasion.

Some people deny NATO ever did anything wrong, or made any promises, and others believe the UN using Hamas statistics as abject fact is appropriate, are wrong. There is a conversation to be had no?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Wasn't that the general British politicians take at the time?

But my point about 2 siding things, and hindsight sight telling the true story, os not that you have to weight both sides equally, like I can condemn Russias invasion to the Ukraine, whilst acknowledging the role NATO played in antagonising them. That doesnt justify Russias invasion, but it clarifies the situation more roundly. To acknowledge that the Russians believe that promises were broken by NATO, and to acknowledge NATOs response gives us a better view in to the complexities of the invasion.

Some people deny NATO ever did anything wrong, or made any promises, and others believe the UN using Hamas statistics as abject fact is appropriate, are wrong. There is a conversation to be had no?

Yes, and those people are dangeorus just as people that fall for Russian propaganda and both sides the Ukraine war. However, in this hypothetical you have the benefit of hindsight and you're saying you would still be that guy in 1939 giving credit to the Nazis.

How many countries has NATO invaded? It's total BS mate. It's like saying "hey, the Germans have been so badly treated I'm not surprised they started invading all their neighbours and beyond"

If you were to put a % on it, how much of Russia's invasion of Ukraine was due to legitimate concerns Putin had and how much would you say is a load of rubbish.

 

[Ddanno]

Guys  please stop indulging this nonsense

 

[dirty harry]

Yes, and those people are dangeorus just as people that fall for Russian propaganda and both sides the Ukraine war. However, in this hypothetical you have the benefit of hindsight and you're saying you would still be that guy in 1939 giving credit to the Nazis.

How many countries has NATO invaded? It's total BS mate. It's like saying "hey, the Germans have been so badly treated I'm not surprised they started invading all their neighbours and beyond"

If you were to put a % on it, how much of Russia's invasion of Ukraine was due to legitimate concerns Putin had and how much would you say is a load of rubbish.

But you cant claim everything Russia say is propoganda, thats social media talk, and its not real life. Real lifeninvolves nuance, complexity and discussion, Russia bad is not a stance i can accept because its an all encompassing statement of moral judgement.

That is a great question, and the answer is very easy... I dont know. And thats the reason for discussing actions, complexities and reason. Stating that Russia is 100% in the wrong is objectively wrong though.

Noone knows the truth on whether there was an expansion agreement, that provides a tiny element of doubt, but we know Russians have believed there was, so in 2008 when the claim that the Ukraine would be a member, that's at least a minor provocation at best. So these little things add up to create a fuller picture no?

 

[Welsh Exile]

But you cant claim everything Russia say is propoganda, thats social media talk, and its not real life. Real lifeninvolves nuance, complexity and discussion, Russia bad is not a stance i can accept because its an all encompassing statement of moral judgement.

That is a great question, and the answer is very easy... I dont know. And thats the reason for discussing actions, complexities and reason. Stating that Russia is 100% in the wrong is objectively wrong though.

Noone knows the truth on whether there was an expansion agreement, that provides a tiny element of doubt, but we know Russians have believed there was, so in 2008 when the claim that the Ukraine would be a member, that's at least a minor provocation at best. So these little things add up to create a fuller picture no?

Generally I think this outlook is fine, good even, but my point is there are times when it’s clear as to who is in the wrong (like thenNazis for example) and I would put Putin in that bracket as well. Here’s a dictator who has an iron grip on his population, doesn’t hold elections and has, like Hitler, invaded a country totally unprovoked. Oh sorry, he said Ukraine needed to be de-nazified first then it was all NATO’s fault. This doesn’t require nuance mate, just as you don’t need nuance to ascertain that the Nazis were the bad guys in WW2.

 

[McTallshort]

Generally I think this outlook is fine, good even, but my point is there are times when it's clear as to who is in the wrong (like thenNazis for example) and I would put Putin in that bracket as well. Here's a dictator who has an iron grip on his population, doesn't hold elections and has, like Hitler, invaded a country totally unprovoked. Oh sorry, he said Ukraine needed to be de-nazified first then it was all NATO's fault. This doesn't require nuance mate, just as you don't need nuance to ascertain that the Nazis were the bad guys in WW2.

Apparently there is someone doing the rounds on the Rogensphire podcasts claiming Hitler was misunderstood and the war was all Churchills fault and it looks like that kind of thing does have an audience....

 

[dirty harry]

Generally I think this outlook is fine, good even, but my point is there are times when it's clear as to who is in the wrong (like thenNazis for example) and I would put Putin in that bracket as well. Here's a dictator who has an iron grip on his population, doesn't hold elections and has, like Hitler, invaded a country totally unprovoked. Oh sorry, he said Ukraine needed to be de-nazified first then it was all NATO's fault. This doesn't require nuance mate, just as you don't need nuance to ascertain that the Nazis were the bad guys in WW2.

I mean, we just established theres a discussion about the level of provocation, its not totally unprovoked, as Russia is concerned of western influence on its borders. We can say we disagree with the invasion, but not that its totally unprovoked.

 

[dirty harry]

Apparently there is someone doing the rounds on the Rogensphire podcasts claiming Hitler was misunderstood and the war was all Churchills fault and it looks like that kind of thing does have an audience....

Churchill bad, osama bin laden good has been social media trends for a while to be fair...

 

[Welsh Exile]

I mean, we just established theres a discussion about the level of provocation, it's not totally unprovoked, as Russia is concerned of western influence on its borders. We can say we disagree with the invasion, but not that it's totally unprovoked.

you either think NATO's "expansion" is legitimate and justified or you don't. You don't think it does justify it so why give much credit to it at all?

 

[Ddanno]

Churchill was, objectively, an utter shite when you look at his oppression policies in India and other British colonies.

Bin Laden being a goodie is a new one on me. Maybe read better media sources.

 

[dirty harry]

Churchill was, objectively, an utter shite when you look at his oppression policies in India and other British colonies.

Bin Laden being a goodie is a new one on me. Maybe read better media sources.

It was a trend going around unsocial media, reading his manifesto letter and agreeing with it hahahaha

Im sure tik tok and co went on an aggressive purge, but the power of social media turned Osama Bin Laden into a Gen Z cult hero, at least for a while

 

[McTallshort]

you either think NATO's "expansion" is legitimate and justified or you don't. You don't think it does justify it so why give much credit to it at all?

The only reason NATO expanded was because Russia is such a **** neighbour

 

[Welsh Exile]

It was a trend going around unsocial media, reading his manifesto letter and agreeing with it hahahaha

Im sure tik tok and co went on an aggressive purge, but the power of social media turned Osama Bin Laden into a Gen Z cult hero, at least for a while

That can’t be mainstream though surely (you’d probably know better than me) I’d out that in the same bracket as idiot far left people that said America deserved 9/11

 

[Welsh Exile]

The only reason NATO expanded was because Russia is such a **** neighbour

Ironically their invasion of Ukraine has just made other countries think **** this we want in (Finland)

 

[Ddanno]

The only reason NATO expanded was because Russia is such a **** neighbour

That's certainly one way of spelling warmongering, expansionist, empire building, international law breaking ****