The 'problem' of Leinster 'dominance'

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

This is a topic that isn't going away any time soon so I thought I'd create a dedicated topic for it. As I've said before, its great Leinster produces such depth in players and their catchment area of 2.5 million is no bigger than the SA or Aus sides or even Scottish or Italian sides (so the issue is more with the inadequacy of other areas in my opinion). But Leinster's supposed 3rd string with nothing to play for just denied Munster second place in the standings and recently got a losing BP away to the team that did end up finishing second (Stormers). This is a pretty exceptional level of dominance, but it is 100% earnt.

My concern is more with whether this creates an issue for the Irish union in terms of player development? If so, what might be solutions?

My random suggestions are:

- loan deals: I hate these in football, but it gives fringe players play time and the owning team have full control over the fate of their player. It can also increase the monetary value of the player to the owning team by putting them in the shop window (although I never hear about transfer fees in rugby for some reason which eludes me, so perhaps that wouldn't be an upside for Leinster).

- a draft of talent spread across Ireland (as thrown up by Amiga500). But that may reward areas that aren't doing enough in their back yard.

- a formal partnership with existing sides globally to farm out youth talent. Say an MLR side in a strong ethnic Irish area. Or a Japanese side. Or dare I say kill two birds with one stone and partner up with the Welsh union (who need cheap talent to spread across four sides).

- enter a side in the Cheetahs forthcoming Intercontinental Shield (like Scotland and Italy are reportedly considering) or some kind of tie up with the Scottish Super6 (like Wales were/are reportedly going to do) or with the Rugby Europe Super Cup (alongside Georgian, Portuguese and Spanish pro sides).

I don't really like any of the above if there are no transfer fees. In terms of securing an adequate playing level I think an agreement with the Welsh union would make the most sense.

Is this all a fake issue? Or does anyone have any better ideas?

 

[big ginger 8]

If Leinster lose next week hoe much 'dominance' will it really be? The season isn't over yet. Things are looking pretty great right now but there's still knockout games to come in both tournaments.

Obviously as a Leinster fan I don't think this is an issue. We've only won the European Cup once since the BT era started so its hardly career mode level dominance there. We're developing our own player, playing a good style and currently getting rewarded for it. I can't be unhappy with that.

As an Irish fan I'm also not worried about development for the Irish team. Irish squad depth is the best it's ever been so I don't know why I would be. It's not like young players are completely stuck and not mak8ng a breakthrough McCarthy is a 21 year old lock who's come through this year, started last night and already been involved with Ireland. Rugby is an attritional sport, if we want to compete on two fronts we need depth. Players will get to play.

This season won't be as instructive as next anyway. We've clearly trimmed the squad for next year already. 6 of last nights 23 won't be around next year either due to retirement or leaving for another club, three of them are going to Connacht. It's a huge hit in terms of experienced heads you want around the kids in situations like last night or in SA, even in guys you want to do a job in Europe when there's an injury crisis.

Especially with the SA sides fully integrated next season will be very instructive about where we are in terms of 'dominance'.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Pretty much what BG8 said.

I'll add that it's far better being a Leinster academy player or fringe player before the age of 25 than being in the same position at the other three provinces. You'll get more gametine in matches focused on developing your skills, play better quality All Ireland League rugby and have a path carved out by countless players before you.

I look at some of the talent Munster have and think they should have far more minutes and be far more developed than they are, Jack Crowley is the prime example, Hodnett had earned a lot more minutes than he was getting prior to this season and Casey was third choice for far too long also. They're making inroads for sure but I think if Crowley and Casey in particular were Leinster players they'd have more minutes and be more developed players than they are now. So yeah, I think weakening us artificially is just rewarding teams for doing a bad job, Ulster's improvements in their academy has gotten them to a level where they're becoming a better URC side than Munster and this will likely translate to Euro rugby if it continues.

I think Harry Byrne last night is a testament to Leinster's talent identification and perseverance. He showed why he has Ireland caps and why he's expected to do great things, his body has held up for a few months and he finally delivered a polished performance making Carbery look like the rookie in the process. Get him on the plane to NZ.

And as I've said on these boards recently, we have natural advantages and I won't deny that but we're doing our very best to maximise those. There was an article in the Irishtimes yesterday with Leo Cullen where he mentions the need to make inroads in GAA strongholds so no one in Leinster are resting on their laurels.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

IMO UK trades NI for half of every Leinster academy intake

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Not so much the playing budget but I would be very interested to know how much money the IRFU have given Leinster to develop the pathways v other provinces.

I'm not sure how it all works over there.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Harry Byrne is a good example. 23 years old. Will be 24 years old at RWC (Beauden Barrett was playing Test rugby at 22). Third in depth chart at Leinster (32 appearances, dont know how many starts) and his only international experience is against US and Canada. Even if he does go to NZ this summer, has this been the best development route for Ireland if Sexton goes down in the RWC and Harry gets thrown in at the deep end against SA, France or NZ?

Same with his brother Ross, who would have been 24 at the last RWC but, presumably due to his superior URC experience, he was behind Carty in the pecking order and we know how that went. Could Ireland end up being Byrned two RWCs running (sorry) or am I drawing I'll informed conclusions.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Harry Byrne is a good example. 23 years old. Will be 24 years old at RWC (Beauden Barrett was playing Test rugby at 22). Third in depth chart at Leinster (32 appearances, dont know how many starts) and his only international experience is against US and Canada. Even if he does go to NZ this summer, has this been the best development route for Ireland if Sexton goes down in the RWC and Harry gets thrown in at the deep end against SA, France or NZ?

Same with his brother Ross, who would have been 24 at the last RWC but, presumably due to his superior URC experience, he was behind Carty in the pecking order and we know how that went. Could Ireland end up being Byrned two RWCs running (sorry) or am I drawing I'll informed conclusions.

I think its just a case of players developing differently. Ross hadn't really shown up great until 2018 and was behind Carbery and Jackson, he also has 11 caps since the world cup and was rightly judged not to have what it takes for this level.

Harry has been named to start Heineken Cup games also, he just got injured before. 32 provincial caps and 2 Ireland caps isn't far beyond what he would have played if Johnny or RB weren't around, he's just had a tough time adapting to the rigours of professionalism.

I think Timoney is as close as you'll get to a negative, he spent important formative years playing AIL and not getting a sniff behind SOB, Leavy, VdF and Conners.

 

[big ginger 8]

Harry Byrne made his first ireland squad two years ago. Unfortunately the guy hasn't been able to stay fit for a consistent run for roughly two years. He was due to make his first Heineken Cup start vs Northampton in December 2020 over a fully fit Ross but pulled up in the warm ups. Since then it's been one injury after the other. Which is very worrisome for his development but doesn't fall on the Leinster coaches really who appeared to be doing everything right.

Edit: Also as an aside I hate the idea of a draft for Irish rugby. It works for American sports because of the disconnect between the teams that develop players and the professional teams but it doesn't fit at all in our system. For a number of reasons.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Well bang goes that theory! Hopefully he has better luck with injury from here on out.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'd wait for the completion of the tournament before putting anything down as problematic. As is I think the log looks pretty healthy even accounting for Leinster likely dropping two, probably 3 games due to fielding B/C line-ups.

If they do go on to trounce all comers emphatically in the play-offs it might be somewhat of a consideration but for me the poor showings of the Italian and Welsh sides are a bigger talking point and even if Leinster look a class apart at the end of the season that is something other sides have to address on their side.

For the Stormers I can assure you we have a great deal of room for improvement and yet we finished 2nd. So I wouldn't be one to drag Leinster down. At the end of last year players didn't even know if there'd be money enough for their salaries, SARU placed the Stormers under administration, SARU president Jurie Roux is still set to face allegations of misappropriating funds whilst being president of rugby at Stellenbosch University. We have a lot of new faces and lost a lot of big names so a year's professional rugby will stand us in good stead going into next season. We've moved away from Newlands and this was our first year at CT stadium with its horrible pitch that to an extent mitigates our often superior scrum.

But possibly I might the Stormers' season is a tad misleading. One, we havn't had to batlle on multiple fronts and we hardly have any internationals even if we'd have had any Bok games in this time frame. Next year that'll change. Still, I think we underperformed the first away leg and will be better for the experience so that might offset things a tad come next year.

So I guess i am just rambling now and have no actual point to make. Sorry.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The handwringing/pearl clutching over Leinster is so weird,
They were even talking about it on commentary during an unrelated premiership game the other day

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The handwringing/pearl clutching over Leinster is so weird,
They were even talking about it on commentary during an unrelated premiership game the other day

The Premiership teams handicap themselves so not sure they can complain much about it.
How much hassle would be saved if Academy players = cap exempted.
Wales teams in general are ****** by shocking mismanagement
Scotland teams are punching above their weight tbh, unlike the welsh they have invested in non Scottish players more and it helps generally.
Italy are gonna Italy

I guess if it was coming from the other provinces I could understand it more.

That being said I also feel in terms of the media and twitter attention a large chunk noise is the Leinster fans beating the drum about how everyone is talking about it when in reality it wasn't that much and prob would've died by now if not for that drum beating. Saying something that isn't at all positive about the irish team or rugby on any social media platform = ******* on their nan's rosaries

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The Premiership teams handicap themselves so not sure they can complain much about it.
How much hassle would be saved if Academy players = cap exempted.
Wales teams in general are ****** by shocking mismanagement
Scotland teams are punching above their weight tbh, unlike the welsh they have invested in non Scottish players more and it helps generally.
Italy are gonna Italy

I guess if it was coming from the other provinces I could understand it more.

That being said I also feel in terms of the media and twitter attention a large chunk noise is the Leinster fans beating the drum about how everyone is talking about it when in reality it wasn't that much and prob would've died by now if not for that drum beating. Saying something that isn't at all positive about the irish team or rugby on any social media platform = ******* on their nan's rosaries

I hadn't really noticed it until the last week or two but we do bang on about our academy admittedly. Our recruitment has improved in recent years too and we do need those to compete for European honours. Isa, Contepomi, Elsom, Hines, Thorn and Fardy were all, at times, world class players that were required to win the HEC. This year JGP, Henshaw and Lowe have all been incredibly important too.

I think excluding homegrown players from the cap or using their first salary as their contribution to it would fix a lot. Was chatting to some Quins and Exe fans this weekend and they both separately complained about all the movement between teams in the prem. I've never been massively interested in the league but it genuinely passes me by now that I can't keep up with who plays for who.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Yeh from Tigers POV I'm really worried about
Heyes
Chessum
Martin
JVP
Steward
All being kept going forward mainly to do with cap, not playing time, which is crazy add in the likes of Dolly and Kelly as well.

It feels like it's harder for Prem fans to get excited about the future players coming through because of the chances being high they do move elsewhere

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It feels like it's harder for Prem fans to get excited about the future players coming through because of the chances being high they do move elsewhere

young kids making meteoric rises messes things up for recruitment as well

Like Rodd, Ashman and Quirke are all still on academy contracts as well - but all are now capped internationals, their salary increases are going to have the same effect as signing multiple new players not just having them graduate from the nursery
Tom Curry is on his first senior contract - his payrise next year is going to be astronomical considering how much his stock has risen the last three years

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I don't see the problem, at least not to the extent others appear to do. Sure, Leinster is having a particularly good couple of seasons, which coincides with welsh teams being merely cones filling up space on the field, bystanders or mere spectators if you will, and RSA teams being at their worst in years, but I'm quite confident this is circumstantial.
Leinster are very, very good, but i don't see them as unbeatable or anything.


A simple acid test, hope @TRF_stormer2010 doesnt mind:

Would you rather face 2022's Leinster with 2022's Stormers or 2018's Crusaders with 2018's Stormers?

Just as a reminder the likes of de Allende, Etzebeth, Kolisi, PSDT, Kitshoff were all part of those stormers side.

 

[Amiga500]

Not so much the playing budget but I would be very interested to know how much money the IRFU have given Leinster to develop the pathways v other provinces.

I'm not sure how it all works over there.

To be honest, I'd reckon its not actually costing Leinster branch that much.

Dublin has several big, very well financed schools, some of whom have a long tradition of success in the game - i.e. the goys bleeding pure blue in Blackrock. Or the up and comers like Gonzaga and St .Michaels...

So, "beneath" the Leinster academy, they essentially have half a dozen sub-academies - with an embarassing amount of resources in both knowledge and funding.

The branch get involved no doubt, and put a lot of effort into the club scene - but the school system is almost on auto-pilot I'd think.

[obviously, being a Nordie, I could be more than a bit wrong on this - the Dubs on here can chime in]

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I don't see the problem, at least not to the extent others appear to do. Sure, Leinster is having a particularly good couple of seasons, which coincides with welsh teams being merely cones filling up space on the field, bystanders or mere spectators if you will, and RSA teams being at their worst in years, but I'm quite confident this is circumstantial.
Leinster are very, very good, but i don't see them as unbeatable or anything.


A simple acid test, hope @TRF_stormer2010 doesnt mind:

Would you rather face 2022's Leinster with 2022's Stormers or 2018's Crusaders with 2018's Stormers?

Just as a reminder the likes of de Allende, Etzebeth, Kolisi, PSDT, Kitshoff were all part of those stormers side.

I don't know if Leinster has the same type of handle on this tournament as the Crusaders have/had on SR but for some reason I can't split it. We'd be massive underdogs either way. 2018 Stormers had a massive pack and miserly defense. Now we have some ability to actually score tries even if we let in a few more I'd wager. It might just be that I've never seen Kolisi and Etzebeth (Kolisi more so than Etzebeth probably) as "club" players the same way I'd back them to sine for SA. All pure perception from 1 fan though so take it as you like.

 

[Reiser99]

My issue when a team is so dominant is that as a neutral I lose interest. Granted with a baby I have less time to watch rugby anyway, but I honestly am not bothered missing it as I don't think it'll be that close.