The 'problem' of Leinster 'dominance'

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

For what its worth I'd put 2018 Crusaders in a league of their own. But I think 2018 Crusaders would smash their 2022 version for some reason and that Leinster are now probably comparable as a XV, superior as a 23 and far ahead in terms of full squad depth.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

That Crusaders side was chocablock with GOAT or near enough players it feels like.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

My issue when a team is so dominant is that as a neutral I lose interest. Granted with a baby I have less time to watch rugby anyway, but I honestly am not bothered missing it as I don't think it'll be that close.

I understand your point, but are they really that dominant? Honest question cuz i sincerely don't see it.
Out of the top of my head

Lein vs Leic: wasn't one-sided at all. I recall half of twitter complaining about Raynal (cant have it both ways).
Lein vs Tou: Granted, this was a dominant performance against a monstrous opponent. Having said that:
- Away
-Leinster had a perfect game and Toulouse had a pretty bad one, happens.
- Toulouse had quite the 1/4s vs Munster, also away. Pretty sure that played a role.

To be fair, i'd say if Toulouse on their best day faced Leinster on their best day i'd favour Toulouse. Both on their average day i'd say it's 50-50.

I've seen my share of teams which made me think 'how the ***** do you stop that?'. Leinster isn't one of those. They are very, very tidy and generally keep unforced errors to the minimum, which is a lot, granted, but they aren't unbeatable.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think Leinster are one of those teams where they don't quite have that aura of being utterly unstoppable and other top teams on a good day could challenge them, it's just that they feel they are able to consistently bang out 8/10 performances as a minimum and very rarely have bad days, on top of being able to take on pretty much anyone even when when their opponents are also in great form. It feels like they could lose half their starting XV and still be serious contenders for the ***le.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I understand your point, but are they really that dominant? Honest question cuz i sincerely don't see it.
Out of the top of my head

Lein vs Leic: wasn't one-sided at all. I recall half of twitter complaining about Raynal (cant have it both ways).
Lein vs Tou: Granted, this was a dominant performance against a monstrous opponent. Having said that:
- Away
-Leinster had a perfect game and Toulouse had a pretty bad one, happens.
- Toulouse had quite the 1/4s vs Munster, also away. Pretty sure that played a role.

To be fair, i'd say if Toulouse on their best day faced Leinster on their best day i'd favour Toulouse. Both on their average day i'd say it's 50-50.

I've seen my share of teams which made me think 'how the ***** do you stop that?'. Leinster isn't one of those. They are very, very tidy and generally keep unforced errors to the minimum, which is a lot, granted, but they aren't unbeatable.

The Leicester game was over after 20 minutes, how is that not one-sided? They kept the side at the top of the premiership at arms length for the second half with an eye to a semi final whilst Toulouse were take to a penalty shoot-out by 6th in the URC.

I don't think we look unstoppable like 2012 but mainly because we haven't proven we can go away to France and win. At the same time this a bogus analysis of the Heineken Cup campaign so far.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

, how is that not one-sided?

Well, like this

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Well, like this

View attachment 13979

I'd love to know what you class as dominant if maintaining a three score lead from the 20th minute to the 78th minute doesn't qualify.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

View attachment 13980

I'd love to know what you class as dominant if maintaining a three score lead from the 20th minute to the 78th minute doesn't qualify.

9pt bros

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I think Leinster are one of those teams where they don't quite have that aura of being utterly unstoppable and other top teams on a good day could challenge them, it's just that they feel they are able to consistently bang out 8/10 performances as a minimum and very rarely have bad days, on top of being able to take on pretty much anyone even when when their opponents are also in great form. It feels like they could lose half their starting XV and still be serious contenders for the ***le.

This i can agree with. Fully.

Would it be unimaginable for, say, Racing, Toulon, Toulouse, Saracens or Leicester (picking a pretty broad spectrum here, so give me some rope) to beat Leinster on a single-elimination round?
I don't think so. Most would be underdogs, sure, but they all got a fair realistic shot at it.

What is impressive and here is where Leinster is head and shoulders above the rest is how they've managed the transitions between what i call, generations. And it's not as if they're doing it a la PSG/Man City.

And, i gotta give credit where credit is due, they tend to show up when the **** hits the fan. They dont shy away, they dont choke. They have a plan, they stick to it, and if it doesnt work they adjust it at the trainer's/captain's discretion. And this is not by chance. This is a very, very well oiled machine and that speaks volumes of Leinster's management.

And, of course, they've got Sexton. He doesn't have Barrett's pace, Carter's flair nor kicking but good lord he's good. There are very, very few players that make me think, 'this guy's head is on another level'. He is one of those.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

This i can agree with. Fully.

Would it be unimaginable for, say, Racing, Toulon, Toulouse, Saracens or Leicester (picking a pretty broad spectrum here, so give me some rope) to beat Leinster on a single-elimination round?
I don't think so. Most would be underdogs, sure, but they all got a fair realistic shot at it.

What is impressive and here is where Leinster is head and shoulders above the rest is how they've managed the transitions between what i call, generations. And it's not as if they're doing it a la PSG/Man City.

And, i gotta give credit where credit is due, they tend to show up when the **** hits the fan. They dont shy away, they dont choke. They have a plan, they stick to it, and if it doesnt work they adjust it at the trainer's/captain's discretion. And this is not by chance. This is a very, very well oiled machine and that speaks volumes of Leinster's management.

And, of course, they've got Sexton. He doesn't have Barrett's pace, Carter's flair nor kicking but good lord he's good. There are very, very few players that make me think, 'this guy's head is on another level'. He is one of those.

TBF Sexton's head usually is on another level, generally in line with something very hard and fast moving...

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Our recruitment has improved in recent years too and we do need those to compete for European honours. Isa, Contepomi, Elsom, Hines, Thorn and Fardy were all, at times, world class players that were required to win the HEC. This year JGP, Henshaw and Lowe have all been incredibly important too.

Coming back to this and I think we see the leveller. Leinster are only allowed to sign Irish players, "project" players or squad players like Alaatoa and Jenkins. We played Ross Moloney in a Heineken Cup final against as big a pack as you'll ever face and in the last 20 minutes it showed, they just went through us (Bad coaching not to bring McCarthy on sooner mind you). When French clubs have a weakness they can throw money at the problem and when they're well run sides it works. Because Leinster are responsible for developing Irish talent we can't pick up Snyman or similar, with a player like that in over the last four years I think we win the 2020 and 2022 Heineken cups and we'd have had a decent chance last year.

Another weakness Saturday showed is that the system kills itself by not producing strong personalities. Johnny Sexton had a very different route through the Leinster academy than the guys do now and after he went off you couldn't point to a strong leader on that pitch. The players now play to the Leinster system, walk and talk how Leinster rugby want them to and lack the toughness needed to get over the line in a big game like that. Andy Farrell obviously sees this too, he always had one of Sexton or POM on the pitch at all times during the 6n even when the latter just didn't match up well against the opposition. There's a softness in Irish rugby right now, and it's probably always been there because apart from Australia in the 2011 RWC I can't think of a time when we beat a top 3 side in the world outside of Ireland, whilst this continues we're going to have a lot of humbling days like Saturday.

Saying all this I think Leinster will bounce back and win next year with a Dublin route to the final*, I don't see any side beating an in form Ireland or Leinster side here but once Johnny goes we won't be a threat for European honours for awhile. 2 Cups from 2018-2023 would still be underachieving so the pressure really is on.

*Can see us dropping the URC to a South African side next year.

 

[Welsh Exile]

like Liverpool, I was glad to see Leinster lose a European final. Their fans are spoilt and have no capacity for pain and suffering so this should keep them in check a wee bit.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Leinster missed an Elsom

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I did post this thread in the URC forum intentionally. I would be surprised if Leinster have a bigger budget than the largest budgets in France or England and would categorise Leinster's involvement in the Champions Cup as impressive rather than dominant.

 

[die_mole]

I did post this thread in the URC forum intentionally. I would be surprised if Leinster have a bigger budget than the largest budgets in France or England and would categorise Leinster's involvement in the Champions Cup as impressive rather than dominant.

they lost to a member-owned club in a city of 75,000. Leinster rosters 60 players and has right of first refusal over one of the best talent pipelines in the world. For them to stay under the Premiership salary cap their average salary would have to be under 83,000 pounds. I'm sure most their filler players are under that but most of their guys playing in Europe have to be well above that.

Meanwhile clubs like La Rochelle have to compete on the open market with 20+ other clubs for French talent and find other talent to fill gaps that can't be filled with the French talent that is spread around more than just 4 teams. It's not like they are throwing contracts at every international superstars they are winning with guys like Liebenberg, West, and Sclavi. If Irish players were able to go on the open market instead of being forced to play for a province I couldn't imagine what Leinster's budget would be.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

La Rochelle have a €27.9m budget, the only teams they beat with bigger budgets were Montpellier (€28.6m) and Racing (€29.1)... They're well managed and using local resources well. But the idea they're giant killing whilst Leinster are huge underachievers by doing the exact same thing in a different way and winning with guys like Moloney and O'Brien... Our average salary is €85k (£72,000) by the way, the average age of the squad is 25 and unless you're an international by then you won't be getting payed more than 60k, usually far less.

Under Cullen and Lancaster we've lost to Montpellier, Toulouse, La Rochelle x2 (All in France) and salary cap breaking Saracens x2 (Once in England, once in Dublin). All of these sides definitely have bigger wage budgets and had home advantage bar one game, in half of them the opposition had Will Skelton who is proving to be our kryptonite.

We've still underachieved though, should have won in 2020 and on Saturday but didn't play well on the day.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

7 years ago Leinster were reportedly operating on a €10m budget compared to the lowest paid Top14 budget of €14m. I have no way to verify that but the gap will likely have only got larger since then.

Toulon's gigantic wage bill absolutely dwarves that of Leinster

And it is only heading up

www.sportsjoe.ie

I take it back about England if their cap is £5-6.5m. That's admirable restraint that hopefully prevents debt. (Although I may technically be correct in that also if we factor in Saracens? )

 

[Tooting Carmen]

(1) The URC in general needs a salary cap, which would level things out and stop Leinster's overweening dominance. (2) This being said, the Welsh sides are indeed mismanaged and poorly-coached and such measures would not be a panacea on their own. (3) Nevertheless, there is a real concern here: Munster's firsts lost against Leinster's second-cum-thirds, and as I speak Leinster are beating Glasgow by around fifty points.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Salary cap won't stop Leinster spanking Glasgow again.

 

[Tooting Carmen]

Salary cap won't stop Leinster spanking Glasgow again.

If a salary cap forces Leinster to let go to some of their huge squad, won't it make a difference?