WRU confirm they want to reduce to two pro teams

[Welsh Exile]

Joe Hawkins knows what's what.

I think everyone agrees change is needed, but going down to two from four seems very short sighted," Hawkins wrote on X.

"It will definitely increase squad quality and maybe success short term but probably at the cost of the little fans Welsh rugby has left walking away which will kill the game and even more players heading to England at a young age due to lack of playing opportunities.

What happens then in five years when there is no fans and all the best young players are over the bridge with no one coming through?

"Also, as a player, if two new teams are made then who wants to play for a team with no history and no loyal and passionate supporters? All the best Welsh players will want that and find it outside of Wales."

 

[Welsh Exile]

No one will want to watch it, no decent players will want to play for these ****, soulless teams and stadiums will be even more empty. Listening to that tool who's stepped in for Tierney talking about we see the future as people supporting players not clubs is just so ******* sad I could actually cry. My memories of going up to the Gnoll in the 80s and 90s is just exactly that now, memory of a time long gone and never coming back. Look what we are now.

Honestly, if someone said to me you've got 2 options:

Option 1: You do this ******** and for the next 20 years it get Wales back into the top 5 rugby nations in the world or…..

Option 2: Rome collapses and we enter the dark ages for the next 20 years where everyone is broke, we're expelled from the URC but we go back to grassroots rugby watching Neath, Ponty, Bridgend etc etc I'd go for option 2 all day. **** it. I'd happily pay £20 month to watch Neath V Aberavon and I'd go up and watch games when I could. We're **** anyway, let's just stick to ourselves, build a big **** off wall and stick our fingers up to everyone.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Also, the only reason why we can't fund 4 regions is because we have a bunch of absolute ******* idiots running rugby in Wales. How about we explore opportunities to, I dunno, make some ******* money. I heard that's what businesses do in the real world. Meanwhile we have a bunch of ***** picking their nose and saying we're broke, boys.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I actually hope it fails miserably, no one turns up, players leave in their droves and we all join in a collective suicide pact and call it a day.

 

[higgik]

Also, the only reason why we can't fund 4 regions is because we have a bunch of absolute ******* idiots running rugby in Wales. How about we explore opportunities to, I dunno, make some ******* money. I heard that's what businesses do in the real world. Meanwhile we have a bunch of ***** picking their nose and saying we're broke, boys.

Could be said about most things in this country, entrepreneurship is a banned word.

 

[Saintjay]

No one will want to watch it, no decent players will want to play for these ****, soulless teams and stadiums will be even more empty. Listening to that tool who's stepped in for Tierney talking about we see the future as people supporting players not clubs is just so ******* sad I could actually cry. My memories of going up to the Gnoll in the 80s and 90s is just exactly that now, memory of a time long gone and never coming back. Look what we are now.

Honestly, if someone said to me you've got 2 options:

Option 1: You do this ******** and for the next 20 years it get Wales back into the top 5 rugby nations in the world or…..

Option 2: Rome collapses and we enter the dark ages for the next 20 years where everyone is broke, we're expelled from the URC but we go back to grassroots rugby watching Neath, Ponty, Bridgend etc etc I'd go for option 2 all day. **** it. I'd happily pay £20 month to watch Neath V Aberavon and I'd go up and watch games when I could. We're **** anyway, let's just stick to ourselves, build a big **** off wall and stick our fingers up to everyone.

I went to Neath v Gloucester as a kid. When all the Neath players had shaved heads. I think Paul Thorburn played.

Was really good, decent crowd and the fans were Neath through and through. I could never have seen them going for another team or club

Fast forward Ospreys vs Saints at Brewery Field. Talking to Ospreys fans and they said people just did not come over from clubs when the regions were created.

Can't see how this isn't history repeating.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I went to Neath v Gloucester as a kid. When all the Neath players had shaved heads. I think Paul Thorburn played.

Was really good, decent crowd and the fans were Neath through and through. I could never have seen them going for another team or club

Fast forward Ospreys vs Saints at Brewery Field. Talking to Ospreys fans and they said people just did not come over from clubs when the regions were created.

Can't see how this isn't history repeating.

It’s ok, everyone is going to support players moving forward.

 

[higgik]

I went to Neath v Gloucester as a kid. When all the Neath players had shaved heads. I think Paul Thorburn played.

Was really good, decent crowd and the fans were Neath through and through. I could never have seen them going for another team or club

Fast forward Ospreys vs Saints at Brewery Field. Talking to Ospreys fans and they said people just did not come over from clubs when the regions were created.

Can't see how this isn't history repeating.

The reason was the team was a Super Club, based in Swansea, with lots of the admin still from Seansea.

 

[dullonien]

No one will want to watch it, no decent players will want to play for these ****, soulless teams and stadiums will be even more empty. Listening to that tool who's stepped in for Tierney talking about we see the future as people supporting players not clubs is just so ******* sad I could actually cry. My memories of going up to the Gnoll in the 80s and 90s is just exactly that now, memory of a time long gone and never coming back. Look what we are now.

Honestly, if someone said to me you've got 2 options:

Option 1: You do this ******** and for the next 20 years it get Wales back into the top 5 rugby nations in the world or…..

Option 2: Rome collapses and we enter the dark ages for the next 20 years where everyone is broke, we're expelled from the URC but we go back to grassroots rugby watching Neath, Ponty, Bridgend etc etc I'd go for option 2 all day. **** it. I'd happily pay £20 month to watch Neath V Aberavon and I'd go up and watch games when I could. We're **** anyway, let's just stick to ourselves, build a big **** off wall and stick our fingers up to everyone.

I don't get what you're asking for though!

On the one hand you hark back to the 'good old days' of watching club rugby which the regional system trampled all over, but then you want to keep that very system that has killed rugby in Wales.

And there's loads of supporters who feel the same or even more strongly. Ponty supporters will never support Cardiff etc. etc.

So keeping the status quo is definitely the death of Welsh rugby, of that I am 100% certain. There isn't magical untapped money streams available because this isn't just a Welsh rugby issue, but a UK one with English clubs struggling and unions mounting in debt.

You want to watch Neath playing, great, add them to the SRC, up the quality there so the likes of Owen Watkin, Nagy, Kieron Williams who may not quite be international quality + Dan Edwards (this is in a hypothetical world where a generation of players weren't lost, and there was a 28y/o 10 bossing things for the West region) etc. are playing in front of thousands and telivised. Bring that buzz back around Welsh club rugby.

Then to compete in cross border competitions, 2 well funded, elite, WINNING regions sit above as the showcase of 'club' rugby in Wales and ensure the perfect stepping stone to international rugby. I'd go watch good rugby on my doorstep, and I think many fans and casual supporters who aren't die hard historical club supporters would too.

Would they suddenly draw 30k+ supporters per game? Probably not. But if they could draw 12k+ average AND the SRC can increase viewer numbers so as a whole the top 2 tiers grow, then over time the 2 regions continue to compete and win, support would naturally increase.

I just don't see another solution personally.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I don't get what you're asking for though!

On the one hand you hark back to the 'good old days' of watching club rugby which the regional system trampled all over, but then you want to keep that very system that has killed rugby in Wales.

And there's loads of supporters who feel the same or even more strongly. Ponty supporters will never support Cardiff etc. etc.

So keeping the status quo is definitely the death of Welsh rugby, of that I am 100% certain. There isn't magical untapped money streams available because this isn't just a Welsh rugby issue, but a UK one with English clubs struggling and unions mounting in debt.

You want to watch Neath playing, great, add them to the SRC, up the quality there so the likes of Owen Watkin, Nagy, Kieron Williams who may not quite be international quality + Dan Edwards (this is in a hypothetical world where a generation of players weren't lost, and there was a 28y/o 10 bossing things for the West region) etc. are playing in front of thousands and telivised. Bring that buzz back around Welsh club rugby.

Then to compete in cross border competitions, 2 well funded, elite, WINNING regions sit above as the showcase of 'club' rugby in Wales and ensure the perfect stepping stone to international rugby. I'd go watch good rugby on my doorstep, and I think many fans and casual supporters who aren't die hard historical club supporters would too.

Would they suddenly draw 30k+ supporters per game? Probably not. But if they could draw 12k+ average AND the SRC can increase viewer numbers so as a whole the top 2 tiers grow, then over time the 2 regions continue to compete and win, support would naturally increase.

I just don't see another solution personally.

There’s 2 answers to this, what I really want and what I realistically want.

Realistically, as much as I hate regional rugby really, I don’t see why we can’t just bin off the dragons at keep 3 regions, as **** as that would be, and go from there.

Ideally, I’d want the whole thing binned off and rugby in wales run by serious people who can make money, grow the game and support 10-12 professional clubs in wales. People say that’s impossible but I disagree. I think if the game was properly managed over the last 20 years we’d be in a good place, the fans would be there, the talent would be there and we’d be in a good position. Just look at our social media presence in relation to how popular the game is (I know there’s a debate to be had there about how popular it is now but again I would say look at how football has been managed in Wales compared to rugby, it’s night and day) it’s a joke, as I say these aren’t serious people but it is what it is.

I guess it’s business as usual. I say I support the Ospreys but I don’t really. I’ll just watch the east v west match in exactly the same way. It’s too late for me i’m addicted to Welsh rugby but I don’t think my boy will go through it, not like I did anyway and that makes me sad, and angry hence my rants.

 

[dullonien]

There's 2 answers to this, what I really want and what I realistically want.

Realistically, as much as I hate regional rugby really, I don't see why we can't just bin off the dragons at keep 3 regions, as **** as that would be, and go from there.

Ideally, I'd want the whole thing binned off and rugby in wales run by serious people who can make money, grow the game and support 10-12 professional clubs in wales. People say that's impossible but I disagree. I think if the game was properly managed over the last 20 years we'd be in a good place, the fans would be there, the talent would be there and we'd be in a good position. Just look at our social media presence in relation to how popular the game is (I know there's a debate to be had there about how popular it is now but again I would say look at how football has been managed in Wales compared to rugby, it's night and day) it's a joke, as I say these aren't serious people but it is what it is.

I guess it's business as usual. I say I support the Ospreys but I don't really. I'll just watch the east v west match in exactly the same way. It's too late for me i'm addicted to Welsh rugby but I don't think my boy will go through it, not like I did anyway and that makes me sad, and angry hence my rants.

Englad show that there's no chance in hell we could support 10-12 pro clubs in Wales. They'd all be half as good as the Dragons and get trounced by the likes of Zebre.

Edit. Maybe 1 or 2 would survive e.g. Cardiff could muster support and thus revenue, but the rest would be bankrupt and pathetic.

We could just bin off the Dragons, but I think that would def be a temp solution. We need to reset the whole system, re-concentrate / re-invest in club rugby via the SRC, whilst accepting that a layer above is needed to compete in cross border comps, and 2 'proper regions' feels like the best approach.

 

[McTallshort]

Englad show that there's no chance in hell we could support 10-12 pro clubs in Wales. They'd all be half as good as the Dragons and get trounced by the likes of Zebre.

Edit. Maybe 1 or 2 would survive e.g. Cardiff could muster support and thus revenue, but the rest would be bankrupt and pathetic.

We could just bin off the Dragons, but I think that would def be a temp solution. We need to reset the whole system, re-concentrate / re-invest in club rugby via the SRC, whilst accepting that a layer above is needed to compete in cross border comps, and 2 'proper regions' feels like the best approach.

Don't the Dragons own their ground etc?

 

[dullonien]

Don't the Dragons own their ground etc?

They do, and are the only region not currently losing money. Ignoring on field results (which is very silly I know), the Ospreys are in a worse position - no ground, poor support numbers, and a squad lacking depth. Cardiff recently gone bust, and Llanell...I mean Scarlets are baed in a town with a population of only 70k!

 

[ncurd]

Just going back I'm sure international sport has diffrent rules from professional sport.
You already have eligibility criteria to play for a nation this just increase the that criteria which is decided by a governing body.
Plus the eligibility criteria is applied universally nobody is singled out.
Bosman and Kolpak wasn't they weren't allowed to ever play its that they singled were out because the squad had met a limit of people with their eligibity criteria had made.

I'm sure Ferns, Armitage and others would of mounted challenges if a single lawyer thought it could be challenged.

 

[higgik]

They do, and are the only region not currently losing money. Ignoring on field results (which is very silly I know), the Ospreys are in a worse position - no ground, poor support numbers, and a squad lacking depth. Cardiff recently gone bust, and Llanell...I mean Scarlets are baed in a town with a population of only 70k!

Exactly why at the elite pro level these clubs cannot compete.
The idea of cutting the numbers of players in the URC teams, means quality goes up, then those younger development players can get game time in the SRC against seasoned club players, that would help their development and show them the tricks that they will not get in practice sessions.
The 13 clubs picked for SRC must have good financial accounts, good fan base and a record of development, including links with schools.
Then WRU can support with funding for those 'development' players.

 

[dirty harry]

The reason why regionalisation hasn't worked is that it was a c**k up of mixing clubs and regions.
If the WRU had been strong enough at the time, they would not have allowed Llanelli and Cardiff to go alone.
If it had been
Capital, Glamorgan, Gwent, West Wales.
With teams overseen by WRU, as in Ireland, then it may have been successful.

You can claim that, but thats not strictly true

I do agree with lots of that, but on the one hand you say the regions proved to be a disaster for the fans (which it was), but you want to keep them anyway?

Why not accept that it didn't work and look for an alternative solution which I think this proposal has the potential of offering if done well. Super Rugbi Cymru has the potential to offer that local parochial rivalry that many fans say they want. I'd want to see Llanelli, Ponty and Neath involved to ensure the old rugby heartlands are all represented, but the point still stands.

However there isn't the money to fund 10-12 sides and have them compete with provinces from Ireland, and clubs from England and France, so that's where the 2 regions come in.

In an ideal world, we'd have 4 regions + a better funded SRC + a better funded academy system; but that's just improssible. But 2 regions + well funded SRC + world class academy should be achievable. And if done well, it won't mean a reduction in players, but an increase with SRC and the academy supplying more professional quality players to the regions than the current pipeline does.

It's literally the system I've advocated for on these boards for 10+ years as it was evident to me back then that the little slice of south wales known as the M4 corridor isn't capable of sustaining 4 sides at the level required to compete with the best. Fans either haven't brought into regional rugby, and the abject failure have prevented new fana from being enticed in to watch them. It's a shame that the last 22 years has to be scrapped, but that's not a reason to continue on the same doomed path, afterall the definition of insantiy is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results!

Maybe in the future when things have improved, the SRC is drawing bigger crowds with fans enjoying watching both youngsters and current regional quality players, the regions competing and winning with maybe a different set of fans, or some overlapping, and Wales

Joe Hawkins knows what's what.

I think everyone agrees change is needed, but going down to two from four seems very short sighted," Hawkins wrote on X.

"It will definitely increase squad quality and maybe success short term but probably at the cost of the little fans Welsh rugby has left walking away which will kill the game and even more players heading to England at a young age due to lack of playing opportunities.

What happens then in five years when there is no fans and all the best young players are over the bridge with no one coming through?

"Also, as a player, if two new teams are made then who wants to play for a team with no history and no loyal and passionate supporters? All the best Welsh players will want that and find it outside of Wales."

He took the words out of my mouth, player drain at the very top stars, and the infrastructure of young players is a death note!

 

[dirty harry]

I actually hope it fails miserably, no one turns up, players leave in their droves and we all join in a collective suicide pact and call it a day.

Name the time and place, im in!

 

[dirty harry]

I don't get what you're asking for though!

On the one hand you hark back to the 'good old days' of watching club rugby which the regional system trampled all over, but then you want to keep that very system that has killed rugby in Wales.

And there's loads of supporters who feel the same or even more strongly. Ponty supporters will never support Cardiff etc. etc.

So keeping the status quo is definitely the death of Welsh rugby, of that I am 100% certain. There isn't magical untapped money streams available because this isn't just a Welsh rugby issue, but a UK one with English clubs struggling and unions mounting in debt.

You want to watch Neath playing, great, add them to the SRC, up the quality there so the likes of Owen Watkin, Nagy, Kieron Williams who may not quite be international quality + Dan Edwards (this is in a hypothetical world where a generation of players weren't lost, and there was a 28y/o 10 bossing things for the West region) etc. are playing in front of thousands and telivised. Bring that buzz back around Welsh club rugby.

Then to compete in cross border competitions, 2 well funded, elite, WINNING regions sit above as the showcase of 'club' rugby in Wales and ensure the perfect stepping stone to international rugby. I'd go watch good rugby on my doorstep, and I think many fans and casual supporters who aren't die hard historical club supporters would too.

Would they suddenly draw 30k+ supporters per game? Probably not. But if they could draw 12k+ average AND the SRC can increase viewer numbers so as a whole the top 2 tiers grow, then over time the 2 regions continue to compete and win, support would naturally increase.

I just don't see another solution personally.

I dont hate thos idea except bail on the URC...

Fully fund the SRC 10/12 teams and bring it in for lions style 4 regional teams for European games.

I dont really care about the top end any more, I want to enjoy rugby again. Let Wales sit in the doldrums, and give us back Cardiff v Ponty. Last few seasons at the Arms park, the best atmosphere was Ponty, and the 2 games against quins and Tolouse with the semi pro players and kids in.

I dont enjoy going to watch URC games, I dont think anyone at Cardiff does. The only interest is the regional derbies really. Would I sacrifice Wales winning a few 6N to enjoy club rugby again? Im getting close.

 

[dirty harry]

There's 2 answers to this, what I really want and what I realistically want.

Realistically, as much as I hate regional rugby really, I don't see why we can't just bin off the dragons at keep 3 regions, as **** as that would be, and go from there.

Ideally, I'd want the whole thing binned off and rugby in wales run by serious people who can make money, grow the game and support 10-12 professional clubs in wales. People say that's impossible but I disagree. I think if the game was properly managed over the last 20 years we'd be in a good place, the fans would be there, the talent would be there and we'd be in a good position. Just look at our social media presence in relation to how popular the game is (I know there's a debate to be had there about how popular it is now but again I would say look at how football has been managed in Wales compared to rugby, it's night and day) it's a joke, as I say these aren't serious people but it is what it is.

I guess it's business as usual. I say I support the Ospreys but I don't really. I'll just watch the east v west match in exactly the same way. It's too late for me i'm addicted to Welsh rugby but I don't think my boy will go through it, not like I did anyway and that makes me sad, and angry hence my rants.

Im with you brother, ******** to finances, let's just go semi pro and enjoy the dog **** rugby we have, at least it will be hours, maybe then one day someone with a bit of foresight could come in and spark a uptick!

 

[dirty harry]

Exactly why at the elite pro level these clubs cannot compete.
The idea of cutting the numbers of players in the URC teams, means quality goes up, then those younger development players can get game time in the SRC against seasoned club players, that would help their development and show them the tricks that they will not get in practice sessions.
The 13 clubs picked for SRC must have good financial accounts, good fan base and a record of development, including links with schools.
Then WRU can support with funding for those 'development' players.

SRC will never be a high enough level to expose youngsters too, it will only hamper development.

There are key development windows, and the most important one is the level of rugby you get exposed too as a late teen early 20s...

Less pro teams, means less exposure for young players, means a reduced player base, which leads to lesser quality players becoming first teamers, which would ultimately lead to having substandard players at int level ahem Mcleod, Ratti, Mann, Costelow, Ben Thomas...