WRU confirm they want to reduce to two pro teams

[Saintjay]

Or just do a Scotland. Townsend would pick Trump if he had pace and a left boot.

 

[higgik]

I dont hate thos idea except bail on the URC...

Fully fund the SRC 10/12 teams and bring it in for lions style 4 regional teams for European games.

I dont really care about the top end any more, I want to enjoy rugby again. Let Wales sit in the doldrums, and give us back Cardiff v Ponty. Last few seasons at the Arms park, the best atmosphere was Ponty, and the 2 games against quins and Tolouse with the semi pro players and kids in.

I dont enjoy going to watch URC games, I dont think anyone at Cardiff does. The only interest is the regional derbies really. Would I sacrifice Wales winning a few 6N to enjoy club rugby again? Im getting close.

So, you think that 12 fully funded clubs is workable and would have the funds to pay top players?
Also, you are suggesting that 4 times a season these players come together and try and be competitive against well drilled sides?

I agree the URC is the problem, as there is no interest in it. A GB&I league would be a far better choice

 

[McTallshort]

So, you think that 12 fully funded clubs is workable and would have the funds to pay top players?
Also, you are suggesting that 4 times a season these players come together and try and be competitive against well drilled sides?

I agree the URC is the problem, as there is no interest in it. A GB&I league would be a far better choice

That's not what he's saying. 12 pro/semi pro clubs with the best players coming together as a region for the European games. I'm guessing the best players centrally contracted. It's how the English game was in the 80s admittedly that was in the non pro era.

 

[dullonien]

That's not what he's saying. 12 pro/semi pro clubs with the best players coming together as a region for the European games. I'm guessing the best players centrally contracted. It's how the English game was in the 80s admittedly that was in the non pro era.

Doubt we'd get much of a TV deal, or sponsorship for a Welsh only league, so that'd remove another chunk of money from rugby in Wales. We need to be part of either the URC or English Prem. I'd prefer the Prem, but no one knows if the rumours of them willing to accept 2 Welsh sides are true.

 

[mdaclarke]

I like the URC, isn't one of the problems that there is too much money going to the semi-professional teams and for boot money?

If they want to drop 2 teams then please be Cardiff and Scarlets.

 

[Ddanno]

Cardiff are nailed on since the WRU already stepped in, no chance they're getting dropped. They have to try to save  some face

 

[higgik]

That's not what he's saying. 12 pro/semi pro clubs with the best players coming together as a region for the European games. I'm guessing the best players centrally contracted. It's how the English game was in the 80s admittedly that was in the non pro era.

So again, these scratch teams would be expected to be competitive for 4 games a season, in a 2 week window in December and February!!!

 

[dullonien]

I like the URC, isn't one of the problems that there is too much money going to the semi-professional teams and for boot money?

If they want to drop 2 teams then please be Cardiff and Scarlets.

I don't dislike the URC, it's a quality league with some of the best club/provincial teams in the world competing in it. The issue is travelling fans, especially with the introduction on the SA sides.

Part of the problem is boot money, but that's in the community/amateur leagues, not the semi-pro levels where funding needs to increase as this should be where players should be developed. I disagree completely with @dirty harry that the SRC will never be high enough quality to develop youngsters, this is the very point of the league and exactly what's been missing for the last 20 years!

The quality of the regions needs to improve drastically to compete at the top and the quality of the SRC needs to improve to sit nicely below as the stepping stone it should be. Reducing to 2 regions will improve the quality at the top (enough to win? Not sure, as there will still be clubs with much higher playing budgets. But certainly enough to compete with good coaching), and the influx of surplus players + extra funding freed up be reducing the number of regions will improve the quality of the SRC.

Improved development pathways below that in the form of a central academy will further strengthen both.

There will be hard work needed to not just maintain that short term boost, but build upon it; but I feel like the corrct foundations will have been laid. The current system is built on a thin layer of sand covering a cess pit!

 

[dirty harry]

I don't dislike the URC, it's a quality league with some of the best club/provincial teams in the world competing in it. The issue is travelling fans, especially with the introduction on the SA sides.

Part of the problem is boot money, but that's in the community/amateur leagues, not the semi-pro levels where funding needs to increase as this should be where players should be developed. I disagree completely with @dirty harry that the SRC will never be high enough quality to develop youngsters, this is the very point of the league and exactly what's been missing for the last 20 years!

The quality of the regions needs to improve drastically to compete at the top and the quality of the SRC needs to improve to sit nicely below as the stepping stone it should be. Reducing to 2 regions will improve the quality at the top (enough to win? Not sure, as there will still be clubs with much higher playing budgets. But certainly enough to compete with good coaching), and the influx of surplus players + extra funding freed up be reducing the number of regions will improve the quality of the SRC.

Improved development pathways below that in the form of a central academy will further strengthen both.

There will be hard work needed to not just maintain that short term boost, but build upon it; but I feel like the corrct foundations will have been laid. The current system is built on a thin layer of sand covering a cess pit!

In100% agree bout the URCs travelling fans, its ridiculous. The teams in thebURC are great, its the URC as an entity that is bad, when they add Americans, maybe Georgians it'll only get worse.

I mean you can disagree about player development, but its 100% a fact, that exposure to higher levels develops higher skillets. The SRC isnt goint to be high enough unless it becomes fully pro, and even then it will be 2 steps below into level.

The reality is, the 2 teams will get stacked with talent straight away, but the running budgets won't be high enough to compete, at what 7.8m it will be half the budget of Leinster, and nearly a third of some French clubs, so just like what happens with the regions, the quality will reduce over the coming decade, until we are eventually talking about a team Wales and bailing on the 2nd team.

Which will mean the best players will have to leave, and with the lack of opportunities a lot of younger talent will leave earlier too.

Before we even talk about fan alienation, mismanagement, loss of TV and competition revenue etc...

 

[dirty harry]

So again, these scratch teams would be expected to be competitive for 4 games a season, in a 2 week window in December and February!!!

Yes. Although I was talking about 4 regions not 1.

And they wouldn't be fully scratch, 3 prem clubs per region, all under a director of rugby, could all have the same playing style, tactical awareness etc...

But let's be honest, are the welsh regions competitive now? At least with a big home crowd, truly from around the region having a myriad of things to discuss, and the excitement of a progressive idea, with a seige mentality of very rare games from outside Wales (instead of the weekly non competitive who cares where their from tripe) it might at least be enjoyable.

 

[McTallshort]

So again, these scratch teams would be expected to be competitive for 4 games a season, in a 2 week window in December and February!!!

Don't Argentina do something similar? 1 pro team with a semi pro league below. They don't seem to do too badly out of it.

 

[higgik]

Yes. Although I was talking about 4 regions not 1.

And they wouldn't be fully scratch, 3 prem clubs per region, all under a director of rugby, could all have the same playing style, tactical awareness etc...

But let's be honest, are the welsh regions competitive now? At least with a big home crowd, truly from around the region having a myriad of things to discuss, and the excitement of a progressive idea, with a seige mentality of very rare games from outside Wales (instead of the weekly non competitive who cares where their from tripe) it might at least be enjoyable.

No but the standard of the SRC would be really poor even compared to now, then you are exposing a team with one week's training to come together and be competitive against the best in Europe.
This idea would cause more damage to the game, as the best players would just go abroad.

 

[higgik]

Don't Argentina do something similar? 1 pro team with a semi pro league below. They don't seem to do too badly out of it.

No, when they had Jaguares in SUPER Rugby, they were contracted full time to the national set up and played the competition in one block.
Only after did these players return to their clubs.
Now they have 3 teams in SRAmericas, who are also contracted to those teams for the period of the competition 12 weeks in one block, before they move back, but most move onto the Pumas or age group sides, or to the 2nd team who play in the American nations event, while the Pumas are in TRC.

 

[dirty harry]

No but the standard of the SRC would be really poor even compared to now, then you are exposing a team with one week's training to come together and be competitive against the best in Europe.
This idea would cause more damage to the game, as the best players would just go abroad.

Why would a fully pro SRC be poorer that an amateur SRC? That makes no sense!

The team with 1 weeks training (for game 1) could be aligned by unification of basic strategy and tactics in their region. It wouldnt be like a lions team from all over learning new things, it would be players who play weekly in similar systems, with similar calls, and similar playing styles coming together on a regular basis for 2 windows a season.

Look the regions are not competitive now, the 2 new teams won't be competitive long term as their budgets will be too low, they might win a few game over the first 2 or 3 seasons, but players will still leave, and we will be left with 2 failing regions, and an amateur SRC.

At least my way, there is potential for development. Having 12 pro clubs includes the whole country, right now the majority of the country have no pro rugby to sport, and Cardiff and Newport have been radicalised to football.

Its not a perfect plan, but it's progressive, we would own our own sport, and we could look at progressive ideas to increase marketability and engagement. Things like Academy player drafts system, raise the profile of young players, make it an event, give the regions and clubs educational budgets, end the season with a regional east v west game at the millennium.

We saw a progressive idea years ago, when they played a probably vs possibles thay was a great idea implemented poorly. A west v east would have been better, or even a 1st team pack and 2nd team backs vs 2nd team pack vs 1st team backs to make it more competitive. This would be a success if done now, the east v west fixture could be held liberty / CCFC alternative years.

I know its scary and radical, but we've sold near 30% of our URC share, we have 1 foot out the door already, why not believe in ourselves, invest in Wales and unify and include all of Wales in the product. Improve grass roots, reivigure young players, and create community again.

 

[higgik]

Why would a fully pro SRC be poorer that an amateur SRC? That makes no sense!

The team with 1 weeks training (for game 1) could be aligned by unification of basic strategy and tactics in their region. It wouldnt be like a lions team from all over learning new things, it would be players who play weekly in similar systems, with similar calls, and similar playing styles coming together on a regular basis for 2 windows a season.

Look the regions are not competitive now, the 2 new teams won't be competitive long term as their budgets will be too low, they might win a few game over the first 2 or 3 seasons, but players will still leave, and we will be left with 2 failing regions, and an amateur SRC.

At least my way, there is potential for development. Having 12 pro clubs includes the whole country, right now the majority of the country have no pro rugby to sport, and Cardiff and Newport have been radicalised to football.

Its not a perfect plan, but it's progressive, we would own our own sport, and we could look at progressive ideas to increase marketability and engagement. Things like Academy player drafts system, raise the profile of young players, make it an event, give the regions and clubs educational budgets, end the season with a regional east v west game at the millennium.

We saw a progressive idea years ago, when they played a probably vs possibles thay was a great idea implemented poorly. A west v east would have been better, or even a 1st team pack and 2nd team backs vs 2nd team pack vs 1st team backs to make it more competitive. This would be a success if done now, the east v west fixture could be held liberty / CCFC alternative years.

I know its scary and radical, but we've sold near 30% of our URC share, we have 1 foot out the door already, why not believe in ourselves, invest in Wales and unify and include all of Wales in the product. Improve grass roots, reivigure young players, and create community again.

I meant the standard of SRC compared to regions.
But more to the point, how many pro players would play in this competition when they could play for 4 times the wage in England or France?
The actual standard would still be very low, and then you are asking players to play at a much higher level with one weeks notice.
Ideally, 2 pro teams in an expanded British and Irish League would work.
It creates competive teams in Wales and reforms the local derbies.

 

[dirty harry]

I meant the standard of SRC compared to regions.
But more to the point, how many pro players would play in this competition when they could play for 4 times the wage in England or France?
The actual standard would still be very low, and then you are asking players to play at a much higher level with one weeks notice.
Ideally, 2 pro teams in an expanded British and Irish League would work.
It creates competive teams in Wales and reforms the local derbies.

I dont think stepping up a level is that hard, club to international happenes all the time, so from 1 pro club, into a higher standard squad, to play against a higher standard opposition would be easy enough.

Im not saying those regions would become competitive, certainly not straight away, but they would design strategies to deal with it.

Player retention would be an issue initially, but english and French clubs only have so much room, theres a reason Ben Thomas and other international players of his standard arent offered massive contracts elsehwere, they arent wanted.

We may lose stars, but how good is the WRU at keeping them now in reality? Older ints, decent pros and up and coming players would be the bulk.

Just think of the conversations, not just who plays for the regions, but imagine Wales have the option of 20 plus pro 10s to consider for international duty, young 10s getting lots of exposure to pro rugby, and finding form, it would stop us from having to pitch our wagon long term to poor players who waste our resources (ahem Sam Costelow, Ioan Lloyd).

I would like nothing more than 4 regions in a british and Irish league, maybe even a 1st and 2nd division, but the URC pays the Irish too well now, and preps the players too well for int rugby, its almost the Irish golden goose let's be honest what would incentivise them to leave?!

Stop poking holes in my SRC fully pro dream mun, its the only thing I can enjoy ATM. Some people day dream about winning the lottery and spending 10 million, I day dream about going to see Cardiff V Ponty in a full house Arms park, and having a beer and banter with the commandos, or hopping on the train to the Gnoll, or Newport, and all us home and away supporters rejoice, linking arms and singing bread of heaven week in week out in ecstacy...

 

[Jollee]

Or arguably talent.

The sad and crazy thing is there is actually so much talent in Wales, I’ve played against former and current internationals growing up some who were brilliant , some who’s face fitted or had a well known Dad. Theres players playing grassroots rugby week in week out who are far more talented than some of our current players, but never had a look in or got given a chance.

 

[Saintjay]

The sad and crazy thing is there is actually so much talent in Wales, I've played against former and current internationals growing up some who were brilliant , some who's face fitted or had a well known Dad. Theres players playing grassroots rugby week in week out who are far more talented than some of our current players, but never had a look in or got given a chance.

Unfortunately that's life or just would could have been.

Given population size India could probably have the greatest rugby 23 man squad the world has ever seen. If they or anyone else could be bothered to find the talent.

 

[Jollee]

Unfortunately that's life or just would could have been.

Given population size India could probably have the greatest rugby 23 man squad the world has ever seen. If they or anyone else could be bothered to find the talent.

True, but that's mainly because there's not as much exposure to rugby in India, if rugby was the dominant sport then it would be a different story.
The talent in local Welsh rugby is literally there to see for anyone who watches, but what I'm saying is that so many are missing out from a young age because players are picked very early on as they fit a size profile or their face fits. The saying "it's who you know not what you know" is something that gets mentioned pretty much every time Wales are playing

 

[Saintjay]

True, but that's mainly because there's not as much exposure to rugby in India, if rugby was the dominant sport then it would be a different story.
The talent in local Welsh rugby is literally there to see for anyone who watches, but what I'm saying is that so many are missing out from a young age because players are picked very early on as they fit a size profile or their face fits. The saying "it's who you know not what you know" is something that gets mentioned pretty much every time Wales are playing

It's been the same in rugby for years. Even when I was playing county. It was what school, who your folks were, or even if the had the right sort of 'car'. In work, sports, and life in general sometimes it's if your face fits. Rightly or wrongly.

Skill and talent sometimes only gets you so far.