WRU confirm they want to reduce to two pro teams

[dirty harry]

I want to reflect for a minute on Scarlets after their innept start to the season. They had a good end to last season, but otherwise they've been a poor side for a number of years now. The same, or worse, can definitely be said about the Dragons too, but what I'm more concerned about at the Scarlets is what appears to be a complete lack of homegrown players coming through their systems.

They have a ton of foreign born players on their books, many have become Welsh qualified, but that doesn't change the fact that they were partly, or wholly, developed by others. Here's their current squad grouped.

Developed by the region:
Archie Hughes, Dan Davis, Dane Blacker, Eddie James, Gareth Davies, Harri O'connor, Ioan Nicholas, Jac Price, Jarrod Taylor, Joe Roberts, Josh Macleod, Kemsley Mathias, Macs Page, Ryan Elias, Tom Rogers, Tomi Lewis


Developed by others:
Alec Hepburn, Archer Holz, Blair Murray, Ellis Mee, Henry Thomas, Jake Ball, Joe Hawkins, Johnny Williams, Mernus Van Der Merwe, Max Douglas, Sam Costellow, Sam Louis, Taine Plumtree, Tristan Davies

Most of their starting 15 haven't come through the Scarlets system, and when you look at the players that have, many aren't good enough, or still unproven.

Go back 10+ years and Scarlets were packed full of homegrown international players.

Dragons are probably a bit better, but still not great. At least Cardiff and Ospreys can mostly demonstrate strong player development pathways, even if they could still be better.

Thisnis why infeel the argument for reducing to 2 teams doesnt make sense, when down to 2, the same will happen, squads who still cant financially compete consolidate to oversees born players, those Welsh talented youngsters will continue to flea Wales at early ages, and instead of having 4 academies failing it'll be 2 failing academies, with less professional playing opportunities.

Which is whats key, the top 2 inches of development doesnt come from talent, coaching, or physical prowess, it comes with exposure at playing at the top level, every professional clube has 23 places per week, thats currently 92 professional players, and it will drop to 46.

If you think Wales has 10 problems now, imagine how bad it will be when Costelow and Sheedy block both professional 10 starting spots, and the likes of Harri Wilde cant get into a squad in Wales. Wilde plays for the U20s, needs game time to develop and challenge for a starting spot, instead he will leave the U20s and he will have 2 options:

1. Be identified as the next Welsh 10, and be shoe horned into East wales squad for game time, weakening the East Wales squad, and plowing massive time effort and resources into a player hoping he makes it.

2. Leave Wales for game time in ideally the English prem, but probably not, and play in English 2nd division, or maybe French 2nd and doesnt get looked after, and either fails, or gets so good his head os turned.

Or when both east and west are forced to import a tighthead with size, we might never see another Welsh tighthead again! Now Imagine Wales have the same issues in 6 or 7 positions, both wlesh clubs will collapse under having to shoehorn young players in, and not be allowed to utilise overseas talent...

Unless they follow a Scottish model, and just hoover up overseas Welsh qualifiable talent en masse, and discard those who don't make it, it is the quicker, cheaper and more viable option!

 

[dullonien]

See, this is where I disagree. Yes it's important for youngsters to play, but simply playing in either a poor team, or before their ready does no one any good.

Take Macs Page as an example, huge potential, and showed loads of glimpses of excellence last season, but he looked genuinely poor yesterday, and probably learn't nothing.

Competition is needed to drive standards, and youngsters need to know the quality needed to make it in the sport. The cream will rise to the top, and there will be opportunities for the good youngsters to play e.g. Biggar ousted Hook at the Ospreys in the days of the galacticos. If Harri Wilde proves to be good enough, then he'll usurp Sheedy in a natural progression, rather than throwing him into the deep end to sink or swim. Now I'd prefer that to be at 3 or even 4 regions, but the quality, or money, simply isn't there.

We need to stem the current downward trajectory, and I don't think that's possible by maintaining the status quo. I think there's a chance of doing so by freeing up resources to invest in a world class academy system and a proper semi-pro domestic competition to sit below the regions. The only way to do that is to reduce the number of regions, of that I'm fairly sure.

 

[dirty harry]

See, this is where I disagree. Yes it's important for youngsters to play, but simply playing in either a poor team, or before their ready does no one any good.

Take Macs Page as an example, huge potential, and showed loads of glimpses of excellence last season, but he looked genuinely poor yesterday, and probably learn't nothing.

Competition is needed to drive standards, and youngsters need to know the quality needed to make it in the sport. The cream will rise to the top, and there will be opportunities for the good youngsters to play e.g. Biggar ousted Hook at the Ospreys in the days of the galacticos. If Harri Wilde proves to be good enough, then he'll usurp Sheedy in a natural progression, rather than throwing him into the deep end to sink or swim. Now I'd prefer that to be at 3 or even 4 regions, but the quality, or money, simply isn't there.

We need to stem the current downward trajectory, and I don't think that's possible by maintaining the status quo. I think there's a chance of doing so by freeing up resources to invest in a world class academy system and a proper semi-pro domestic competition to sit below the regions. The only way to do that is to reduce the number of regions, of that I'm fairly sure.

Ok so we agree Wilde cant Usurp Sheedy now, and cant Usurp Lloyd, or Ben Thomas, lets say Cardiff merge with Dragons, Wilde cant Usurp Debeer, or Angus O brien either...

What does Wilde do to get game time? Hes competing with Jac Lloyd, Will Reed, Harrison James, and cant compete yet with the 5 fly halfs above already?

Does East Wales focus on performance and go with Sheedy, Lloyd and Obrien, or do they drop 1 for Wilde? Or do they waste resources and add Eilde as an extra player?

Lets multiply that dilemma by 15?

Freeing up recourses only consolidates a problem, if the lack of resources in Welsh rugby is the issue, you have to generate more, alienating more fans, restructuring into 2 teams who i promise you will play in front of smaller crowds now, than any 3 of the 4 regions do now, losing more junior players, and losing more interest in the game isnt the way to go!

2 teams will be the end of Welsh rugby, I sit in the south stand in Cardiff and a few times some of the season ticket holders have verbally polled the 100 or so people around us, and only 1 person has made the claim they would renew their ticket if they become East wales.

If rugby wants to survive in Wales, there needs to be a culture change, the WRU have to advocate for it to be back on the curriculum properly, the Senedd needs to invest in it, and it has to be unapologetically gladiatorial and fun again, and marketed to excited young boys, and not overly cautious middle class mums.

Im in high schools around Cardiff, noone wants to play Rugby, its dying out in most schools. Thats the problem.

 

[dullonien]

Ok so we agree Wilde cant Usurp Sheedy now, and cant Usurp Lloyd, or Ben Thomas, lets say Cardiff merge with Dragons, Wilde cant Usurp Debeer, or Angus O brien either...

What does Wilde do to get game time? Hes competing with Jac Lloyd, Will Reed, Harrison James, and cant compete yet with the 5 fly halfs above already?

Does East Wales focus on performance and go with Sheedy, Lloyd and Obrien, or do they drop 1 for Wilde? Or do they waste resources and add Eilde as an extra player?

Lets multiply that dilemma by 15?

Freeing up recourses only consolidates a problem, if the lack of resources in Welsh rugby is the issue, you have to generate more, alienating more fans, restructuring into 2 teams who i promise you will play in front of smaller crowds now, than any 3 of the 4 regions do now, losing more junior players, and losing more interest in the game isnt the way to go!

2 teams will be the end of Welsh rugby, I sit in the south stand in Cardiff and a few times some of the season ticket holders have verbally polled the 100 or so people around us, and only 1 person has made the claim they would renew their ticket if they become East wales.

If rugby wants to survive in Wales, there needs to be a culture change, the WRU have to advocate for it to be back on the curriculum properly, the Senedd needs to invest in it, and it has to be unapologetically gladiatorial and fun again, and marketed to excited young boys, and not overly cautious middle class mums.

Im in high schools around Cardiff, noone wants to play Rugby, its dying out in most schools. Thats the problem.

I'll leave the second half of the post for now, as that's a wider issue outside of the current restructuring, and in some ways separate from Welsh rugby alone.

RE. The hypothetical Wilde, or Ford situation. He's not regional quality yet, so he should be playing week in week out at SRC level, which needs to improve drastically. This has been a huge issue for years (obvs including the Premiership in this before SRC came into being).

Then if Wilde or Ford are genuinely good enough, they of course can and would usurp Sheedy, Lloyd, O'Brien and Debeer, as none of which have proven themselves to be international class. Competition is never a bad thing, it drives standards, and provides a target for youngsters to achieve.

Now I do agree that in an ideal world we'd be able to achieve this with more than 2 teams, it certainly isn't ideal, but simply saying that more resources needs to be generated doesn't fix anything. That's been the case for 2 decades, yet if anything rugby as a whole is generating less, with clubs and unions struggling financially everywhere. We need a solution that can have an impact now.

If the 2 regions are successful on the field, I'm confident supporters will watch. Those who only care about their club will have to be content with following their actual club (not their psudo region) in the SRC. That's not a bad thing either as that will drive revenue into the domestic game which is desperately needed.

Maybe I'm wrong, but after following the slow decline of Welsh rugby for the last 15 years (the performance of the national side was always papering over the cracks below) something simply has to change, and something drastic imo. Welsh rugby is on its knees, the regions aren't working, and have never really worked. Why are we trying to retain something which has failed miserably?

We can't go back to the old club system either as that would just water things down even further. So what other option is there? Consolidate, re build, then expand when the foundation is strong again appears the only solution to me.

 

[dirty harry]

I'll leave the second half of the post for now, as that's a wider issue outside of the current restructuring, and in some ways separate from Welsh rugby alone.

RE. The hypothetical Wilde, or Ford situation. He's not regional quality yet, so he should be playing week in week out at SRC level, which needs to improve drastically. This has been a huge issue for years (obvs including the Premiership in this before SRC came into being).

Then if Wilde or Ford are genuinely good enough, they of course can and would usurp Sheedy, Lloyd, O'Brien and Debeer, as none of which have proven themselves to be international class. Competition is never a bad thing, it drives standards, and provides a target for youngsters to achieve.

Now I do agree that in an ideal world we'd be able to achieve this with more than 2 teams, it certainly isn't ideal, but simply saying that more resources needs to be generated doesn't fix anything. That's been the case for 2 decades, yet if anything rugby as a whole is generating less, with clubs and unions struggling financially everywhere. We need a solution that can have an impact now.

If the 2 regions are successful on the field, I'm confident supporters will watch. Those who only care about their club will have to be content with following their actual club (not their psudo region) in the SRC. That's not a bad thing either as that will drive revenue into the domestic game which is desperately needed.

Maybe I'm wrong, but after following the slow decline of Welsh rugby for the last 15 years (the performance of the national side was always papering over the cracks below) something simply has to change, and something drastic imo. Welsh rugby is on its knees, the regions aren't working, and have never really worked. Why are we trying to retain something which has failed miserably?

We can't go back to the old club system either as that would just water things down even further. So what other option is there? Consolidate, re build, then expand when the foundation is strong again appears the only solution to me.

I agree with pretty much all of this, except for the final part...

Rugby is dying globally, other sports are more exciting and are marketed better.

Every time world rugby overly complicated another rule, it alienates more potential fans. Look at the current crop, feeding in the scrum, no contest in the lineouts, the ******* 20 minute red card, its just piling more complexities on top of bad rule changes in an attempt to fix their mistake.

The breakdown has become a first there wins, with counter rucking no longer allowed, the tackle area is a mess, scrums ruin atmosphere and speed of game, the try checks are the same... rugby needs to be simplified, made easier to enjoy for the neutral, easier to ref and easier to follow.

The WRU has compounded these problems with their community rules, their lack of investment in schools and clubs, and compounded the cock up that was regional rugby with decision after decision that only benefits them! I honestly dont see an argument that Rugby is Wales national sport any more.

But back to the 2 region debacle, how would alienating the few club fans left, and leaving 2 'super' clubs (hahahaha) in Cardiff and Swansea play in empty small stadiums help?

I agree radical change is needed, I just dont think pooling our failing recourses, which is what we did with regionalism in the first place, remaking the mistakes of the past, is the answer.

If it were up to me id go radically progressive.

Professional (as much as can be) 12 team Welsh premiership (which may be 60% semi pro, with professional contracted players for now), get everyone around the table, 3 clubs per region. Market the prem on a local basis, rivalries (**** me what are they in Wales?!) Local celebrities, with a progressive and original campaign.

When it comes to european rugby, the regions can get together to form a super squad, in an attempt to compete, keeping all 4 spots and key funding. The season can even start and end with these super squads games, a 3 weekend round Robin to start, and East v West to finish. Hell even the national team needs a revamp, we played a possibles v probables a while ago, that was a good idea, except it was never going to be a competitive game, id rather have seen 2 teams, 1st team forwards/2nd team backs vs 2nd team forwards/1st team backs.

We could start a draft system, newly qualified 20 year olds competed for by their clubs.

There are dozens of ideas that are radical but might just enthuse the nation again, and yes its a big risk, but id rather rugby dies on its feet trying to do something to survive, than survive on its knees slowly losing life. And thats whats happening in Wales, rugby in its current bloated, overly complex, overly safe, generic form that nobody is happy with club structure, is losing life, to repeat the same mistake from 20 years ago is madness!

 

[Tooting Carmen]

You say "rugby is dying gl9bally". What you mean is that it is not as popular in its few traditional heartlands as in the past. (Even in NZ, soccer is nowadays rather more popular to play than rugby). However, even while nowhere near as popular as football or even basketball yet around the world, it has grown far more compared to the supposedly good old days of the 1970's, where caps were not even awarded when playing teams that were not the Five Nations or Southern Hemisphere trío, as all the others were regarded as too week.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I still think our main problem is having a bunch of useless idiots who don't know how to run a bath let alone a business. Get Daniel Levy in from Spurs. He's available.

I just never ever hear of things like outside investment, ideas to generate profit, growing the game etc etc. it's all so stale and just a load of old dudes throwing up their arm going"what do you expect us to do" Be ******* competent and not a bunch of **** wits would be a good start. Which is why we are screwed and might as well just go down to 2 and when they **** that up we can just fold the whole bloody thing.

 

[dirty harry]

I still think our main problem is having a bunch of useless idiots who don't know how to run a bath let alone a business. Get Daniel Levy in from Spurs. He's available.

I just never ever hear of things like outside investment, ideas to generate profit, growing the game etc etc. it's all so stale and just a load of old dudes throwing up their arm going"what do you expect us to do" Be ******* competent and not a bunch of **** wits would be a good start. Which is why we are screwed and might as well just go down to 2 and when they **** that up we can just fold the whole bloody thing.

Thats the only outcome of going down to 2, in about 8 years it will become team Wales, and club Wales, and 11 years from that it will be one international / club conjoined in the 3rd tier of international and club rugby.

Being competent isnt enough for where we are, we need progressive radical thinking, its hail Mary time!!!

 

[Welsh Exile]

Thats the only outcome of going down to 2, in about 8 years it will become team Wales, and club Wales, and 11 years from that it will be one international / club conjoined in the 3rd tier of international and club rugby.

Being competent isnt enough for where we are, we need progressive radical thinking, its hail Mary time!!!

Just let Chat GPT run it.

 

[higgik]

See, this is where I disagree. Yes it's important for youngsters to play, but simply playing in either a poor team, or before their ready does no one any good.

Take Macs Page as an example, huge potential, and showed loads of glimpses of excellence last season, but he looked genuinely poor yesterday, and probably learn't nothing.

Competition is needed to drive standards, and youngsters need to know the quality needed to make it in the sport. The cream will rise to the top, and there will be opportunities for the good youngsters to play e.g. Biggar ousted Hook at the Ospreys in the days of the galacticos. If Harri Wilde proves to be good enough, then he'll usurp Sheedy in a natural progression, rather than throwing him into the deep end to sink or swim. Now I'd prefer that to be at 3 or even 4 regions, but the quality, or money, simply isn't there.

We need to stem the current downward trajectory, and I don't think that's possible by maintaining the status quo. I think there's a chance of doing so by freeing up resources to invest in a world class academy system and a proper semi-pro domestic competition to sit below the regions. The only way to do that is to reduce the number of regions, of that I'm fairly sure.

Exactly.
Try to get 60 centrally contracted players on a range of contracts from international to development. Franchises given by WRU, with international contracts paid 100% by WRU, going to development 25% WRU and 75% franchise.
This releases more money for SRC.
Again, this would be franchises picked on financial, area and fan base.

 

[dullonien]

I agree with pretty much all of this, except for the final part...

Rugby is dying globally, other sports are more exciting and are marketed better.

Every time world rugby overly complicated another rule, it alienates more potential fans. Look at the current crop, feeding in the scrum, no contest in the lineouts, the ******* 20 minute red card, its just piling more complexities on top of bad rule changes in an attempt to fix their mistake.

The breakdown has become a first there wins, with counter rucking no longer allowed, the tackle area is a mess, scrums ruin atmosphere and speed of game, the try checks are the same... rugby needs to be simplified, made easier to enjoy for the neutral, easier to ref and easier to follow.

The WRU has compounded these problems with their community rules, their lack of investment in schools and clubs, and compounded the cock up that was regional rugby with decision after decision that only benefits them! I honestly dont see an argument that Rugby is Wales national sport any more.

But back to the 2 region debacle, how would alienating the few club fans left, and leaving 2 'super' clubs (hahahaha) in Cardiff and Swansea play in empty small stadiums help?

I agree radical change is needed, I just dont think pooling our failing recourses, which is what we did with regionalism in the first place, remaking the mistakes of the past, is the answer.

If it were up to me id go radically progressive.

Professional (as much as can be) 12 team Welsh premiership (which may be 60% semi pro, with professional contracted players for now), get everyone around the table, 3 clubs per region. Market the prem on a local basis, rivalries (**** me what are they in Wales?!) Local celebrities, with a progressive and original campaign.

When it comes to european rugby, the regions can get together to form a super squad, in an attempt to compete, keeping all 4 spots and key funding. The season can even start and end with these super squads games, a 3 weekend round Robin to start, and East v West to finish. Hell even the national team needs a revamp, we played a possibles v probables a while ago, that was a good idea, except it was never going to be a competitive game, id rather have seen 2 teams, 1st team forwards/2nd team backs vs 2nd team forwards/1st team backs.

We could start a draft system, newly qualified 20 year olds competed for by their clubs.

There are dozens of ideas that are radical but might just enthuse the nation again, and yes its a big risk, but id rather rugby dies on its feet trying to do something to survive, than survive on its knees slowly losing life. And thats whats happening in Wales, rugby in its current bloated, overly complex, overly safe, generic form that nobody is happy with club structure, is losing life, to repeat the same mistake from 20 years ago is madness!

Ignoring your thoughts on the game as a whole (which I mostly agree with re. complexity etc.), I don't think your radical idea is vastly different from the 2 region proposal.

Both have the intentions of vastly improving and celebrating the domestic SRC/premiership rivalries by supercharging this level, and making this much more of a focal point for Welsh rugby.

You then want the 'regions' to only kick in at European level (kinda like the NZ system). Would the other 'Euro' nations even allow this? How would these regions/super squads qualify if they no longer play in a league of any kind? I just don't see that being feasible, hence why I'm an advocate for a similar approach, except we keep 2 permanent regions, rather than only assembling them for Europe.

But the key is freeing up the money to not only improve the quality of those 2 regions, but to also invest into the SRC and the development pathways. This is key for me, and I don't see that happening if we keep 4 regions or going for a 3+1 or 2+2 funded model. Maybe 2+1 could be a compromise I could live with, but that +1 team would basically be Dragons level which if we're honest isn't achieving much atm - would that money be better spent on further enhancing the SRC/academy, or the other 2 regions?

 

[dirty harry]

Ignoring your thoughts on the game as a whole (which I mostly agree with re. complexity etc.), I don't think your radical idea is vastly different from the 2 region proposal.

Both have the intentions of vastly improving and celebrating the domestic SRC/premiership rivalries by supercharging this level, and making this much more of a focal point for Welsh rugby.

You then want the 'regions' to only kick in at European level (kinda like the NZ system). Would the other 'Euro' nations even allow this? How would these regions/super squads qualify if they no longer play in a league of any kind? I just don't see that being feasible, hence why I'm an advocate for a similar approach, except we keep 2 permanent regions, rather than only assembling them for Europe.

But the key is freeing up the money to not only improve the quality of those 2 regions, but to also invest into the SRC and the development pathways. This is key for me, and I don't see that happening if we keep 4 regions or going for a 3+1 or 2+2 funded model. Maybe 2+1 could be a compromise I could live with, but that +1 team would basically be Dragons level which if we're honest isn't achieving much atm - would that money be better spent on further enhancing the SRC/academy, or the other 2 regions?

But do you agree that dropping to 2 teams, is the same mistake as regionalisation in the first place?

I just dont see how consolidation is anything other than regionalisation, or a slow death of rugby...

 

[dullonien]

But do you agree that dropping to 2 teams, is the same mistake as regionalisation in the first place?

I just dont see how consolidation is anything other than regionalisation, or a slow death of rugby...

Regionalism wasn't necessarily a mistake for me. There was no way Wales could support 9 fully professional sides at the time, so a restructuring was required.

The mistake made was to allow a select few of the old clubs to hold the game to ransom, resulting in super clubs, rather than proper regions. Now the parochial nature of Welsh rugby was a huge strength in the amateur era, but proved challenging when it came to consolidating down to 5 then 4 sides. But 'true regions', if such a thing can exist in Wales, would have been the better approach, and not this mess of super clubs masquerading as regions.

It may still have worked if the levels below the regions weren't entirely neglected. The early signs were positive with Ospreys, Blues and Scarlets all competitive at various stages, but the mismanagement of the pathways (both feeder clubs and academies) by both the regions themselves and WRU means we are where we are.

Do I think reducing to 2 is making the same mistake? Only if it were done in isolation. If it's done properly, in line with what Reddin has outlined, with significant improvements made to SRC and player pathways, then I genuinely think it could be successful.

But I also wouldn't want them to stand still, put a plan in place to expand again when, hopefully, resources (money and players) allow. I'd personally love to see the Valleys properly represented again, and for North Wales to be inclided. The viability of both is questionable, but it would be a better spread than what we currently have, and would better represent the whole of Wales.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Squad is announced today.

Beard captain? Let’s go!

 

[AlRums]

David Moffett: Ex-WRU chief executive resigns from Scarlets backers

David Moffett quits Scarlets backers House of Luxury "effective immediately", giving no reasons for the decision.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[dirty harry]

David Moffett: Ex-WRU chief executive resigns from Scarlets backers

David Moffett quits Scarlets backers House of Luxury "effective immediately", giving no reasons for the decision.

www.bbc.co.uk

I mean this in the most respectful terms:

Moffett is an absolute c.unt who should not be allowed anywhere near a rugby pitch for the rest of his miserable short life!!!!

I know that seems hateful, but I dont care, he is an absolute ******* twat bag!

 

[Rugbyfan564]

 

[higgik]

Cop out at all levels by the WRU.
Should have stuck to their guns on 2 teams.
Ideally no club affiliation, just top 70 players available get a contract.
The current clubs would drop into a much more competitive SRC.
It would also allow them to set up friendlies with Prem clubs.

 

[dirty harry]

There are just no words, the WRU have been on a 100 year mission to eradicate rugby from Wales, and they are very close to succeeding!

Someone turn the lights off on your way out

 

[dirty harry]

Cop out at all levels by the WRU.
Should have stuck to their guns on 2 teams.
Ideally no club affiliation, just top 70 players available get a contract.
The current clubs would drop into a much more competitive SRC.
It would also allow them to set up friendlies with Prem clubs.

No club affiliation? So east wales playing in Cardiff in Blue?

West wales playing at PYS in red?