South Africa vs England - 04/07/26

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[TRF_Olyy]

South Africa to win by a number not yet discovered by mathematicians

 

[big ginger 8]

View attachment 26194

South Africa to win by a number not yet discovered by mathematicians

I know you guys love being pessimistic but Manie Libbok is the only 10 in the opposition 23...

 

[Geordie]

View attachment 26194

South Africa to win by a number not yet discovered by mathematicians

England are going to get pumped....

 

[rN_X]

How is the current prop stock looking for England ? I saw they have a lot of injuries in that dept. But not been following much.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I know you guys love being pessimistic but Manie Libbok is the only 10 in the opposition 23...

I don’t really rate Libbok that much either. Is that harsh? I like the other Stormer dude a lot more but take it he’s still injured.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

How is the current prop stock looking for England ? I saw they have a lot of injuries in that dept. But not been following much.

Yeah, bit of a mess:

We've taken:
Loosehead:
Ellis Genge (first choice)
Asher Opoku-Fordjour (should actually be our 3rd choice tighthead)
Beno Obano (was very good in previous years but looks to be on an early slide due to lots of injuries)

Tighthead:
Joe Heyes (if everyone's fit probably 2nd choice, but has had a fantastic season so I'm happy calling him first choice)
George Kloska (solid club level player, deserving of the step up)
Vilikesa Sela (not long turned 21, ended the season poorly, at the setpiece, and then played poorly vs France XV)

Missing 2nd and 3rd choice loosehead and first(*) choice tighthead,
Should've taken Iyogun as loosehead and had AOF in the tighthead ranks - if that was never on the cards then still should've taken Fasogbon over Sela


We've got our best (and arguably only) tighthead lock back, in George Martin, and he makes a big difference to the scrum but I'd still expect starters vs starters to be in favour of SA, and then once any changes are made it to shift very heavily towards SA

 

[Welsh Exile]

England are going to get pumped....

You’d think so out in SA but England have this habit of pulling a rabbit out of the hat in some big games. It’ll either be a 25 plus win for SA or England by 3.

 

[rN_X]

Yeah, bit of a mess:

We've taken:
Loosehead:
Ellis Genge (first choice)
Asher Opoku-Fordjour (should actually be our 3rd choice tighthead)
Beno Obano (was very good in his prime but looks to be on an early slide due to lots of injuries)

Joe Heyes (if everyone's fit probably 2nd choice, but has had a fantastic season so I'm happy calling him first choice)
George Kloska (solid club level player, deserving of the step up)
Vilikesa Sela (not long turned 21, ended the season poorly and then played poorly vs France XV)


Missing 2nd and 3rd choice loosehead and first(*) choice tighthead,
Should've taken Iyogun as loosehead and had AOF in the tighthead ranks - if that was never on the cards then still should've taken Fasogbon over Sela

This is tough. Damn

 

[Geordie]

I don’t really rate Libbok that much either. Is that harsh? I like the other Stormer dude a lot more but take it he’s still injured.

Doesnt matter...the way Rassie works he'll just move one of the props to 10 or something.

 

[Geordie]

You’d think so out in SA but England have this habit of pulling a rabbit out of the hat in some big games. It’ll either be a 25 plus win for SA or England by 3.

I honestly just cant see England getting even close in this.

We have NO big Carriers to make real dents in the opposition, we just look physically under powered especially versus a SA team.

 

[ChicagoKid]

This is not the exact team I expected but it is exactly the strategy I expected.

Altitude = pure speed + athleticism + conditioning.

This is a tempo game. They are going to play fast.

Now the question is, does Steve go with a big pack? I had seen Curry + Chessum + Earl back row.

Curious to see what Steve does.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I don't think England are anything more than a team that can **** you up 1 in 5 times (max) right now.

Still makes them a nervy prospect, they absolutely can win this weekend if SA are less than a 9/10. But they need to get their emotional prep right and that seems like a roll of the dice from the outside in.

I think it's also a case of their good games being a team that are probably top 4 in the world in terms of individual talent just out performing their **** gameplan through a monumental effort.

Seems like a waste of a cycle, they really should be better than us and probably performing at least as consistently as NZ rn.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

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South Africa to win by a number not yet discovered by mathematicians

I hate how the South Africans have finally figured out Wiese is miles ahead as their best 8

 

[Quel Carreleur]

I honestly just cant see England getting even close in this.

We have NO big Carriers to make real dents in the opposition, we just look physically under powered especially versus a SA team.

But we'll play as if we're the power team...

 

[ChicagoKid]

I hate how the South Africans have finally figured out Wiese is miles ahead as their best 8

They’ve known that since at least 2024. He keeps getting suspended.

He was on the bench for the RWC 23 final. Vermeulen was the best 8 in Springbok history and Rassie called him one of the smartest players he has been around. So it’s no wonder that it took Jasper a while to break into the starting 15.

 

[ChicagoKid]

But we'll play as if we're the power team...

The England pack is really strong outside of Hooker. Jamie George or Theo Dan would be like 5th or 6th choice for the Boks.

George looked past it back in 23/24, yet here he is.

Now watch him dominate on Saturday. lol.

 

[Saintjay]

I don't think England are anything more than a team that can **** you up 1 in 5 times (max) right now.

Still makes them a nervy prospect, they absolutely can win this weekend if SA are less than a 9/10. But they need to get their emotional prep right and that seems like a roll of the dice from the outside in.

I think it's also a case of their good games being a team that are probably top 4 in the world in terms of individual talent just out performing their **** gameplan through a monumental effort.

Seems like a waste of a cycle, they really should be better than us and probably performing at least as consistently as NZ rn.

This cycle under Borthwick never got out of the pre-wash stage.

 

[Geordie]

The England pack is really strong outside of Hooker. Jamie George or Theo Dan would be like 5th or 6th choice for the Boks.

George looked past it back in 23/24, yet here he is.

Now watch him dominate on Saturday. lol.

Im not sure it is.

Props
We have 4 very good props who actually played a huge part in the tactics we were employing (using the SA tactics of replacing all mid game) .....but 2 of them are long term injured. We then have the next batch who are coming through but all at different stages of development and none replace the top 4 well enough yet.

Our locks....Itoje, Chessum (who will play 6 due to a lack of a physically big and in form 6 or 8) and Coles are very good but not over physical. George Martin is the only "over physical" tight headlock we have and hes only just coming back after big spells out injured. We badly need another couple of Tight head monsters coming through.

Back row....were missing some size at 6 or 8. We have a lot of VERY good "midsized" flankers who punch above their weight but Tom Curry is broken Ben Curry Injured, Underhill always carrying some kncock and Earl / Pollock are players who you need to be carrying in wide channels not in battles in the rucks. We desperately need the back up of a couple of big "bullies". We did hope Cunningham South might be that but so far failed to do anything and Tom Willis going to France just as he was coming good was a big slap in the face.

But overall we just dont have some big carrying guys...guys like the Vunipolas etc who could take the ball from a standing start and still make yards and carry defenders backwards.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Im not sure it is.

Props
We have 4 very good props who actually played a huge part in the tactics we were employing (using the SA tactics of replacing all mid game) .....but 2 of them are long term injured. We then have the next batch who are coming through but all at different stages of development and none replace the top 4 well enough yet.

Our locks....Itoje, Chessum (who will play 6 due to a lack of a physically big and in form 6 or 8) and Coles are very good but not over physical. George Martin is the only "over physical" tight headlock we have and hes only just coming back after big spells out injured. We badly need another couple of Tight head monsters coming through.

Back row....were missing some size at 6 or 8. We have a lot of VERY good "midsized" flankers who punch above their weight but Tom Curry is broken Ben Curry Injured, Underhill always carrying some kncock and Earl / Pollock are players who you need to be carrying in wide channels not in battles in the rucks. We desperately need the back up of a couple of big "bullies". We did hope Cunningham South might be that but so far failed to do anything and Tom Willis going to France just as he was coming good was a big slap in the face.

But overall we just dont have some big carrying guys...guys like the Vunipolas etc who could take the ball from a standing start and still make yards and carry defenders backwards.

I agree you need a big bruiser at 8.

For me, Pollack or Earl should play 12 for England. It’s been a position of weakness for years. Pollock could easily play 12 and he is smaller than either Bok 12.

 

[Geordie]

I agree you need a big bruiser at 8.

For me, Pollack or Earl should play 12 for England. It’s been a position of weakness for years. Pollock could easily play 12 and he is smaller than either Bok 12.

nah we have a South African to play there now....

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

It makes me laugh to think anyone hasn’t written England off. Borthwick just finished our 6 nations with our worst ever finish losing to Italy for the first time ever. If we can’t beat Scotland, or Italy, how can we have a chance on hell of beating the worlds best team.

There is a small chance that Borthwick has learned that playing like it’s 2005 doesn’t work any more or that the players all ignore Wigglesworth but that’s are only hope.

I hate to be so down but it makes me sad that England are once again in such a **** poor position due to the coaches (again).

 

[ChicagoKid]

It makes me laugh to think anyone hasn’t written England off. Borthwick just finished our 6 nations with our worst ever finish losing to Italy for the first time ever. If we can’t beat Scotland, or Italy, how can we have a chance on hell of beating the worlds best team.

There is a small chance that Borthwick has learned that playing like it’s 2005 doesn’t work any more or that the players all ignore Wigglesworth but that’s are only hope.

I hate to be so down but it makes me sad that England are once again in such a **** poor position due to the coaches (again).

I’m worried about England. They have the talent to beat anyone. You saw it versus France.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You saw it versus France.

A fine victory

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

It makes me laugh to think anyone hasn’t written England off. Borthwick just finished our 6 nations with our worst ever finish losing to Italy for the first time ever. If we can’t beat Scotland, or Italy, how can we have a chance on hell of beating the worlds best team.

There is a small chance that Borthwick has learned that playing like it’s 2005 doesn’t work any more or that the players all ignore Wigglesworth but that’s are only hope.

I hate to be so down but it makes me sad that England are once again in such a **** poor position due to the coaches (again).

I’m worried about England. They have the talent to beat anyone. You saw it versus France.

Yeah I can’t remember beating France, what I do remember is the last couple of 6 nations, we’ve changed the way we play for one last game after the tournament is lost.

Then we go back to playing like **** for the next game of the next series. Lessons learnt by Northwick = none

 

[Becca]

This could be a very tough watch

 

[ChicagoKid]

A fine victory

They pushed France to the death. And beat NZ in November.

I’d still put a decent chunk of change they make the semis next year.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

This cycle under Borthwick never got out of the pre-wash stage.

2025 seemed like a perfect transition year from the outside looking in too, firmly expected them to establish themselves as 2nd in Europe chasing France (which is probably where they should be with the talent amd age profile currently in the squad).

 

[Saintjay]

Yeah I can’t remember beating France, what I do remember is the last couple of 6 nations, we’ve changed the way we play for one last game after the tournament is lost.

Then we go back to playing like **** for the next game of the next series. Lessons learnt by Northwick = none

Fully expect England to revert too low risk, percentage rugby come the WRC

Rassie's comments roughly about Borths being data driven and chasing trends is about right

 

[mackerzz]

Yeah, bit of a mess:

We've taken:
Loosehead:
Ellis Genge (first choice)
Asher Opoku-Fordjour (should actually be our 3rd choice tighthead)
Beno Obano (was very good in previous years but looks to be on an early slide due to lots of injuries)

Tighthead:
Joe Heyes (if everyone's fit probably 2nd choice, but has had a fantastic season so I'm happy calling him first choice)
George Kloska (solid club level player, deserving of the step up)
Vilikesa Sela (not long turned 21, ended the season poorly, at the setpiece, and then played poorly vs France XV)

Missing 2nd and 3rd choice loosehead and first(*) choice tighthead,
Should've taken Iyogun as loosehead and had AOF in the tighthead ranks - if that was never on the cards then still should've taken Fasogbon over Sela


We've got our best (and arguably only) tighthead lock back, in George Martin, and he makes a big difference to the scrum but I'd still expect starters vs starters to be in favour of SA, and then once any changes are made it to shift very heavily towards SA

I can't be bothered figuring it out, but who's injured atm in the props?