Fiji v Wales

[Welsh Exile]

Hoping for a 3rd win in a row here to take into the Argentina game where hopefully we give them a really good game and run them close. Some big players to come back. I’d go for

Carre Lake Anyone
Jenkins Carter
Plumtree Wainwright Morgan

Williams
Edwards
Mee
Hawkins
James
LRZ
Murray

Bench: Elias, Smith, Whoever, Woodman, Kane James, Hardy, Costelow, Grady

Rogers is never go to be played at 15 and he’s not got the pace for wing at international level and generally doesn’t play his best rugby there (unless he scores a hatrick against NZ) so I’d imagine Murray will play there for the foreseeable.

 

[dullonien]

I'd go with that side too. Hopefully Anyone and Whoever can scrummage!

I think Woodman may be one of the players cut from the squad. I'm just hoping Beard won't be there, but he probably will be.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'd go with that side too. Hopefully Anyone and Whoever can scrummage!

I think Woodman may be one of the players cut from the squad. I'm just hoping Beard won't be there, but he probably will be.

Yeah you’re probably right re woodman. If so, then I hope “anyone other than Beard” takes up that bench spot.

Tandy has slowly but surely been listening to us though, mate. The penny finally dropped with Beard and it’s starting to drop with Mann.

I’m really excited about Kane James. I told myself I’m not going to get carried away but **** it, I think he’s going to be class for us.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Kin hell, I’ve been ranting in the wrong thread.

Beard is going to start. Just call the tour off now.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Sherratt said re Bryn Bradley not making it that he said to him “we’re looking at the big picture”

The thought of him saying that with a straight face to Bradley that he’s thinking of the big picture while he picks his best buddy Ben Thomas is James Bond villain type behaviour.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Also confirmed that naturally we will rotate so Hawkins doesn’t even have to be injured for Thomas to come in. We will see a 10-12 axis of Costelow and Thomas at some point in the Argentina game. Throw in Beard and we might as well just play 12 men.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The only way this can be saved now is for Tandy to sit Plumtree down and tell him that he’s going to be a lock this tour. Whether that means he’s on the bench to cover 1 of Teddy Williams and Carter who will start or whether he starts alongside one of Williams or Carter. Then we can just start Kane James at 6 and have Reffell/Botham on the bench.

That way you don’t have to have Beard in the 23 for any matches. I’d also say to Hawkins that he is back up 10 and move James to 12 and have Llewellyn at 13. This would be what I would do against Fiji. Not ideal but I would’ve picked a different squad.

Carre Lake Whoever
Teddy Williams Carter
James Wainwright Morgan

Williams
Edwards
Adams
James
Llewellyn
LRZ
Murray

Bench: Elias, Smith, Whoever, Plumtree, Reffell, Hardy, Hawkins, Grady.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I was thinking when I heard that Jenkins was out for the summer that it made sense why Tandy seemed to be annoyed about the whole Tshiunza situation. Obviously when it was announced a few days ago that Tshiunza couldn’t be selected Tandy would’ve known that Jenkins was also out hence how annoyed he was he couldn’t select Christ. ******* shooting oirselves jn the foot. Jenkins is a massive loss but Carter and Tshiunza in the row with Teddy Williams on the bench would’ve been at least serviceable. Hoping we can get him back in for the WC.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Plumtree apparently to start in the row. Nice. I approve.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Oh just **** off Tandy and Sherratt. Not only does Beard start so does Mann. What a joke. Starting the match with 6 men in the pack. Good one.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Wales: Blair Murray; Louis Rees-Zammit, Eddie James, Joe Hawkins, Josh Adams; Dan Edwards, Tomos Williams; Rhys Carre, Dewi Lake (c), Dillon Lewis, Ben Carter, Adam Beard, Alex Mann, Jac Morgan, Aaron Wainwright.

Replacement: Ryan Elias, Nicky Smith, Ben Warren, Taine Plumtree, James Botham, Kieran Hardy, Sam Costelow, Ellis Mee.

 

[Welsh Exile]

This is actually ******* crazy to me. We’ve got an on fire Plumtree. Kane James, Reffell back in the squad and Botham. All these players are far better than Alex ******* Mann. Should be playing Plumtree in the row (or starting Teddy Williams and having Plumtree on the bench as lock replacement -like he is tomorrow) Mann shouldn’t even be anywhere near the 23 let alone starting 15. Why are we so desperate to handicap ourselves playing these players?

 

[dirty harry]

This is actually ******* crazy to me. We’ve got an on fire Plumtree. Kane James, Reffell back in the squad and Botham. All these players are far better than Alex ******* Mann. Should be playing Plumtree in the row (or starting Teddy Williams and having Plumtree on the bench as lock replacement -like he is tomorrow) Mann shouldn’t even be anywhere near the 23 let alone starting 15. Why are we so desperate to handicap ourselves playing these players?

I think youve developed a negative emotional attachment to some names and are looking for perceived errors.

I agree i wouldnt have started Beard, especially in this game, but Mann is a selection that will spoil Fijis mojo, add Morgan to that andnit makes sense.

Why would Plumtree improce team performance, he does a bot of all and nothing, much better off the bench than starting IMO. Mann eother starts or drops out the squad, and his engine means its less need for 1 more sub, covers 7 etc...

Im much more annoyed with Blai the speed bump Murray, or Dillon hpw desperate are we Lewis

 

[Welsh Exile]

Manns inclusion is a joke. Not only is he the epitome of a club player he’s not even been fit, barely featured for Cardiff at the end of the season, didn’t play against the barbarians and, as I say, isn’t very good. But yet here you go, jettisoned straight into the side.

No one can convince me he’s as good, or anywhere near as good really, as Plumtree, Reffell and Kane James.

 

[dirty harry]

Manns inclusion is a joke. Not only is he the epitome of a club player he’s not even been fit, barely featured for Cardiff at the end of the season, didn’t play against the barbarians and, as I say, isn’t very good. But yet here you go, jettisoned straight into the side.

No one can convince me he’s as good, or anywhere near as good really, as Plumtree, Reffell and Kane James.

Its not good and bad though, rugby is not about individuals, its about teams and units. Rugbys history is littered with outstanding individuals who didnt get what they deserve, for better suited players for the collective.

Im not saying Mann is a top class 6, hes currently filling a huge gap at blindside, and he doesnt get near Morgan, but he has abilities unrivalled by others, like Plumtree or James, AND he is developing his weaknesses.

How exaclty does Plumtree benefit Wales at 6 against this Fiji side?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Its not good and bad though, rugby is not about individuals, its about teams and units. Rugbys history is littered with outstanding individuals who didnt get what they deserve, for better suited players for the collective.

Im not saying Mann is a top class 6, hes currently filling a huge gap at blindside, and he doesnt get near Morgan, but he has abilities unrivalled by others, like Plumtree or James, AND he is developing his weaknesses.

How exaclty does Plumtree benefit Wales at 6 against this Fiji side?

Errrr, speed, power, athleticism. I reckon if you did a bleep test with Mann, Plumtree, Reffell, James and Botham there wouldn’t be much in it. Manns engine is grossly overstated. Much like Beards amazing maul defence and weight in scrum.

 

[Welsh Exile]

You ask someone what is beard good at they’ll say maul defence and he’s tall. Ask someone what Mann is good at they’ll say his engine and he’ll meet you in the car park for a fight after the game. Sorry but I want more than that.

 

[dirty harry]

Errrr, speed, power, athleticism. I reckon if you did a bleep test with Mann, Plumtree, Reffell, James and Botham there wouldn’t be much in it. Manns engine is grossly overstated. Much like Beards amazing maul defence and weight in scrum.

Mate the beep test hasnt been relevant to rugby for 2 decades lol. Even in 2013 when i was working in it they were using adapted versions, we used the YO Yo, Bronco and RSA, and i wanted rid of them then, i dont know what they use today, i would hope itnwould be GPS tracked adapted mtch scenarios, but ive beennoit of pro sport for a decade.

But my point is, Mann is not the best 7nor 6 in Wales, hes benefiting from a lack of quality back row options, largee more ball carrying options arent needed v Fiji, certainly not in the first 60 mins, we just cant match their explosive power ball in hand, so why not leave them come on later on when space opens up?

I feel lile you value starters more than i do!

 

[Welsh Exile]

Mate the beep test hasnt been relevant to rugby for 2 decades lol. Even in 2013 when i was working in it they were using adapted versions, we used the YO Yo, Bronco and RSA, and i wanted rid of them then, i dont know what they use today, i would hope itnwould be GPS tracked adapted mtch scenarios, but ive beennoit of pro sport for a decade.

But my point is, Mann is not the best 7nor 6 in Wales, hes benefiting from a lack of quality back row options, largee more ball carrying options arent needed v Fiji, certainly not in the first 60 mins, we just cant match their explosive power ball in hand, so why not leave them come on later on when space opens up?

I feel lile you value starters more than i do!

The gulf in quality is huge and, at the end of the day, you have your best players involved. We don’t have a plethora of talent to be able to carry players like Beard and Mann. With Mann it’s even worse as even though he at least offers something (unlike Beard) we have loads of better players who offer just as much around the park, are just as fit, are just as good at tackling (in fact you’ll see more dominant hits from someone like Reffell and Plumtree and I’m sure James as well) but, more importantly, they’re bigger; stronger, faster and more skilful. At least with Beard you can say we only have 3
Locks in the squad and Teddy Williams and Carter aren’t exactly top drawer.

 

[dirty harry]

The gulf in quality is huge and, at the end of the day, you have your best players involved. We don’t have a plethora of talent to be able to carry players like Beard and Mann. With Mann it’s even worse as even though he at least offers something (unlike Beard) we have loads of better players who offer just as much around the park, are just as fit, are just as good at tackling (in fact you’ll see more dominant hits from someone like Reffell and Plumtree and I’m sure James as well) but, more importantly, they’re bigger; stronger, faster and more skilful. At least with Beard you can say we only have 3
Locks in the squad and Teddy Williams and Carter aren’t exactly top drawer.

Excpet those players arent more usefull at 6 than Mann is...

In the modern era, Wales manage the 1st and 4th quarter of Fiji games better, Fiji score most of their points in Q2, so it makes sense to disrupt the breakdown first half, Mann is better at that than all, and those players arent tackle machines like Mann, who returns to his feet and reenters play quicker than any other Welsh player by a mile. His stats reflect that, 20+ tackles regularly, and doesnt he hold the record 33?

If he is always top tackler or there or there abouts, closely followed by Morgan, and Fiji are more powerful than us, and score their points in Q2, why wouldnt you have the 2 top tacklers and breakdown disrupters on the team on the pitch?

I wouldnt argue Beard except there are few other options around, however id prefer to see a younger prospect there, but it isnt your or my job on the line.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Excpet those players arent more usefull at 6 than Mann is...l

 

[dirty harry]

Ok, lets get into it...

Which of those players tackle as much as Mann?

Which of those disrupts as many breakdowns?

The only one of those who has an argument is Refell, he has a high work rate, and he turns over more, but ultimately he doesnt get through the same work Mann does, and has fallen out of favour.

Botham and Plumtree are better in wider channels, and have more rounded skillsets, well Plumtree is, Botham has been a catastrophe recently out there for his standards, but what good is that in the firat half where the space just isnt there.plus neither of those regularly go 80 and need replacing around the 55 to 60 minute mark. Again the only one who comes close is Refell who reaches 70, to Manns 70 to 75 mins.

It would be invaluable to not HAVE to replace back rowers on 60, and just gives mpre flexibility.

Im not claiming Mann is the best, but i get Tandys strategical thinking against opposition like Fiji, it just makes sense to have an 80 minite player capable of 30 tackles plus and disrupting loads of breakdowns on the park, compared to 60 minite wide ball players.

Plus isnt Plumtree covering lock?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Ok, lets get into it...

Which of those players tackle as much as Mann?

Which of those disrupts as many breakdowns?

The only one of those who has an argument is Refell, he has a high work rate, and he turns over more, but ultimately he doesnt get through the same work Mann does, and has fallen out of favour.

Botham and Plumtree are better in wider channels, and have more rounded skillsets, well Plumtree is, Botham has been a catastrophe recently out there for his standards, but what good is that in the firat half where the space just isnt there.plus neither of those regularly go 80 and need replacing around the 55 to 60 minute mark. Again the only one who comes close is Refell who reaches 70, to Manns 70 to 75 mins.

It would be invaluable to not HAVE to replace back rowers on 60, and just gives mpre flexibility.

Im not claiming Mann is the best, but i get Tandys strategical thinking against opposition like Fiji, it just makes sense to have an 80 minite player capable of 30 tackles plus and disrupting loads of breakdowns on the park, compared to 60 minite wide ball players.

Plus isnt Plumtree covering lock?

Yes he’s covering lock. Which I would be in favour of if we didn’t have Beard in the 23.

Mann had that game against Ireland which he topped the tackle stats in but I vaguely remember Botham topping him in later games and Mann not actually doing anything amazing in those departments but happy to be proved wrong.

Well I certainly agree that Reffell is the much better option. He can do everything that Mann does but put in more dominant hits and get you a turnover or 2 over the ball. Then you have the soon to be best flanker in the world Kane James to come on. Botham gets through the same amount of work to. I completely disagree that he’s been catastrophic but like with Mann we just have a fundamental disagreement

 

[Welsh Exile]

So, looking at just the Italy game Mann topped nothing that I can see but Botham did top tackles and dominant hits with Lake and Wainwright in the top 3 for carries.

 

[Welsh Exile]

In the Scotland game, Jenkins and Carter topped tackles with 22. Wainwight next with 18. Then Mann 17 and then Botham with 15 but he came on later (10min or so) for Plumtree so probably would’ve put in another 2 or 3 tackles and topped Mann then, oh and he got a turnover.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Listening to the Scrum V pod and Jamie Roberts said that Mann is one of our best carriers. What’s he smoking?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Baldwin:

“You can’t forget that Beard is a British and Irish lion and has been out in France for a year. That’s a different experience”

**** me. Who’s borrowing the family brain cell, Scott?

 

[dirty harry]

Listening to the Scrum V pod and Jamie Roberts said that Mann is one of our best carriers. What’s he smoking?

Baldwin:

“You can’t forget that Beard is a British and Irish lion and has been out in France for a year. That’s a different experience”

**** me. Who’s borrowing the family brain cell, Scott?

Can we get on the same side for a few moments in ridiculing these statements?

 

[dullonien]

I have no time for Beard at all, but Mann is a great player imo. But, and it's a big one, he's not played much recently, and for that reason alone I would't have played him here.

What he does bring though is an unreal engine, excellent defense and some real ****le. You need a bit of that sometimes. I still maintain he's a stone short of where he needs to be for a blindside vs the very top sides.

I was also liking Plumtree's development at 6. He obviously brings much more dynamism to the side, but he does tend to drift in and out of games, which is a criticism you cannot label at Mann. Plumtree's trump card for me though is his ability at the lineout, he's a superb jumper at 6, and really takes the heat off the locks.

Botham sits somewhere in between the two. He finished the 6n strongly and there's a lot to like there too.

 

[Welsh Exile]

You know I love you @dullonien but Mann is not a great player. I can’t see how that is even up for debate. Great? Really?

As o say, if you ask someone what is Mann great at, or even just good, it’s “His engine” or “he’s great at winding people up” “he’ll meet you in the car park for a fight”

Ok great. What else? Errrrrrr. Silence.

As I have shown in the Italy and Scotland games, Mann didn’t even come top 3 in tackles completed and certainly not dominant hits (which was Botham) so again, I would ask, what is he elite at? It’s not power, it’s not speed, it’s not skill, it’s not rugby IQ (remember the grubber he did when he had a 4 man overlap) it’s not his amazing work rate in D.

It’s just like the Beard situation with people saying he’s the goat at maul defence and his weight in the scrum. We only had to drop him for Carter, ******* Carter, for us to realise how ineffective and useless Beard was I’d argue any one of Botham, Reffell, James and Plumtree offer so much more than Alex Mann.