IRB rule against Pacific Islander's switch

[TRF_Olyy]

I think you should choose who you play for, but you only choose once. It means that you have decleared loyalty to one nations for rugby, and that's it. To stop people playing for a nation, because they weren't born in the country means they're less English or less of a New Zealander, sends a very wrong message.

I agree with this, though I'd expand it to all sport, so we wouldn't get Hape playing for England because he's already represented New Zealand internationally.
Also, I think they should up the residency rules from 3 to 5+ years, because then you're less likely to get someone coming across at, say, 26 because they couldn't get into the All Blacks, staying until their 29 then getting a cap then. If they weren't eligible until they were 30 odd they're less likely to be considered, and it wouldn't effect players who came across at 18 or so and played rugby in England for all/the majority of their professional career (i.e Mike Catt coming across at 20ish, though his Mum was English anyhow)

 

[cardassian]

It's not as if they'd be raised as a native as their new country. Chances are (and this does happen) that people are raised at home with a different tongue to those of their now homes. On a more basic level, I'm a Northamptoner so will never "be from Staffordshire", even if I lived there for a few years as a kid.

Fourie may have done well for England, but he's not English and because he played, there are English youngsters who didn't because the import took the shirt which (technically) is their birthright. Therefore he shouldn't have played.

The Hape example makes me even more annoyed.

What if they are raised as native though?

I've got a friend who is English, Parents are English, he was born in England.

Moved to New Zealand when he was 6 months old.

Hasn't been back to England.

Grew up on a farm in rural New Zealand and considers himself a Kiwi, but he'd only be able to play for England.

My Brother on the other hand is a Kiwi, parents Kiwi, born in NZ but has lived 10 years in England and his loyalties are with England (cheers for ENgland when they play New Zealand etc...) but he'd have to play for New Zealand.

So neither could represent the country that they see as home because of where their parents happened to give birth to them.

I think this could lead to cases where people would say f#*k it and not play international rugby.

Weakening the player base at the top level.

I say a 3 year stand down and you have to be a citizen of the country you represent.

(I'm happy to have Thorn in the ABs and fine with Hape playing for England, Cooper for Australia etc...)

 

[Teh Mite]

What if they are raised as native though?

I've got a friend who is English, Parents are English, he was born in England.

Moved to New Zealand when he was 6 months old.

Hasn't been back to England.

Grew up on a farm in rural New Zealand and considers himself a Kiwi, but he'd only be able to play for England.

My Brother on the other hand is a Kiwi, parents Kiwi, born in NZ but has lived 10 years in England and his loyalties are with England (cheers for ENgland when they play New Zealand etc...) but he'd have to play for New Zealand.

So neither could represent the country that they see as home because of where their parents happened to give birth to them.

I think this could lead to cases where people would say f#*k it and not play international rugby.

Weakening the player base at the top level.

I say a 3 year stand down and you have to be a citizen of the country you represent.

(I'm happy to have Thorn in the ABs and fine with Hape playing for England, Cooper for Australia etc...)

Your friend is English, your Brother is a Kiwi.

Eminem isn't a black man just because he talks ******** over a monotonous beat. Nor is Lilly Savage a real woman just because 'she' wears a dress.

 

[cardassian]

Your friend is English, your Brother is a Kiwi.

Eminem isn't a black man just because he talks ******** over a monotonous beat. Nor is Lilly Savage a real woman just because 'she' wears a dress.

I know my brother's a Kiwi (even if his loyalties lie somewhere else), but my mates pretty Kiwi.

Like technically he's English all right but he had NZ passport first (wouldn't believe me for years that he could get a UK one) grew up in New Zealand, and only knows NZ culture and way of life.

In cases like his I don't think you can expect people to travel half way around the world and play for a country that means nothing to them.

Saying choose your country is fine when it could be one of two, stand downs is ok, but telling someone where their real home is without taking into account their opinion justs seems wrong.

Also imagine the waste with Cooper sitting on the NZ bench, meaning Aussie are weaker, meaning even larger gap between NZ and the rest of the world.

 

[Melhor Time]

Any thoughts on this ruling? To be fair if the players wanted to play for their birth nation they would never have left in search of an New Zealand cap.

Best news of the day.

Jerry Collins is from Samoa, played for New Zealand then played in France and now in Wales. Should he play for Wales at Rugby World Cup 2011? - Certainly not.

Craig Gower is from Australia has never lived in Italy but plays for Italy after leaving Australia to start playing rugby in France. Can play because of his Granny who was Italian. Should he play for Australia? - No way. Is it fair that he plays for Italy? Yes. Why? Because he is not elligible to play for Australia as he does not play in Australia.

I can play for Brazil where I live with a Brazilian wife and two children both born here. I am not from here. Would it be poaching if I played for Brazil (I still play rugby as I am 29)? - certainly not. I have been here for other 6 years. I am not from the USA but lived there long enough to play. If I had a green card I would be elligible.

Isa Nacewa played one test for Fiji as a replacement in Australia 2003. Cried about not being able to be an All Black - his problem. He played for Fiji legally. End of story.

Jamie Heaslip is from Israel but plays for Ireland just like his buddy Ronan O'Gara who is from the USA. Both left for Ireland at a young age. Poached? - no.

France are mising François Trinh-Duc big time who is injured. In his place is Damien Traille playing out of position. Should they have selected Australias Brock James who has been in France for over 5 years? No chance - he played Sevens for Australia. Sevens = international rugby.

Should O'Gara be 10 for the USA now that Johnny Sexton is first choice for Ireland? He could thus play for his country of birth, right? What a silly idea the Pacific Islanders had. Wake up! Nationality is not a choice that can be reversed. Many people, myself included, have multiple nationalities but cannot and should not be able to represent multiple countries at rugby. Never!

 

[dullonien]

Your friend is English, your Brother is a Kiwi.

Eminem isn't a black man just because he talks ******** over a monotonous beat. Nor is Lilly Savage a real woman just because 'she' wears a dress.

And why exactly is where you are born so important? Because I honestly don't get it.

And no Eminem isn't black, but he is from the 'hood' as they say. And your Lilly Savage reference is just stupid.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

It has to do with heritage. If you allow everyone to just pick a country then what is the use of national teams? That way it has nothing to do with patriotism. If you take that away every national team is just a club that tries to sign the best players.

Following that same logic, why don't we just allow English teams in the Super 15 or Irish teams in the French TOP14? That is just ridiculous

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

 

[Teh Mite]

And why exactly is where you are born so important? Because I honestly don't get it.

And no Eminem isn't black, but he is from the 'hood' as they say. And your Lilly Savage reference is just stupid.

Is it? Really?

His friend has no ties to New Zealand except living there. That is a decision someone took to move there, not where he originates.

His Brother is a Kiwi who lived in England. That doesn't make him English, even if he's very fond of the place.

Eminem is a White man despite living in "da hood". That's a decision taken, but doesn't change his genetic makeup.

Lilly savage is really [strike]English[/strike] a man. [strike]Living in New Zealand[/strike] Wearing a dress doesn't make 'her' [strike]Kiwi[/strike] a real woman - Do you understand the parallel I was drawing?

You can say whatever you want, it doesn't change your origin.

I'm personally fascinated my Maori culture, especially the tattos. So much so that I got a custom tat which part-incorporated Maori designs. Doesn't make me a Maori though.

 

[dullonien]

However, being born in a certain country has much less influence on the way you turn out as a person than where you live, the people who surround you and your parents and schools guidance in life. Not one part of what makes you you is dependant on the country you were born if you move at a very young age. By calling for a ban of choosing the country you represent by residence completely, you are ignoring people's heritage to a much more extent than the current laws!

His friends ties to New Zealand are much bigger than those he had towards England, because he has been surrounded and been part of the culture for his entire life, yet does not even remember living in England. The same for his Brother.

Bullit, you are trying to turn an extremely complex part of life into something black and white, something that can not and should not be done.

 

[Teh Mite]

********! He's English, his parents are English, he was born in England, he lived in England. He may live in NZ and pay NZ takes, but he's still English. He was not born in NZ. He has no family history (so far as we're aware) linking him to New Zealand. He is there because HIS PARENTS MOVED HOUSE.

It doesn't matter if he was 6 months or 6 decades old at the time.

 

[dullonien]

Seriously? What exactly do you think makes everyone who they are? Is everyone who is born in England to English parents the exact same person? No, because your surroundings make you who you are, meaning if you've never experienced life in England (no-one remembers anything about being 6months old), and your Parents aren't especially patriotic, then why should some random policy govern that you are infact English. What about if his parents were New Zealenders aswell, and the only reason he was born in England was because the spent an isignificant amount of time there?

Again, this issue along with every other one of lifes issues is not and can not be treated in such a black and white mannor.

 

[Teh Mite]

No, being Born in England to English parents (as he was described as) doesn't make you the same as the next person. It does however make you English. Not French. Not American. Not Kiwi. Not Eskimo. English. That's how it works for EVERY nationality. And why exactly would emigrating make somebody "unpatriotic"? Maybe (and likely) it was due to employment commitments?

You can't change what you are. If you're born a black, welsh, gay man you can't decide that you're really a chinese straight woman. UIt doesn't work like that, no matter how much the Human-rights lefty-fuckwits try top tell you otherwise.

 

[gingergenius]

So, Bullitt, my best friend at uni: born in Wick (Scotland) to an English/ Welsh mother and a Swiss father. Grew up in Indonesia until 10/11. Lived ever since with mother in Sri Lanka, but went to secondary school in UK and spends time with Welsh grandparents. Speaks English, French and Indonesian.

Is she Scottish/ English/ Welsh/ Swiss/ Indonesian/ Sri Lankan?

Or, as Melhor Time said does she have multiple nationalities and the right to choose?

When talking about nationalities, there are several facts that have to be accepted.

1. The idea of 'nation' is only that - an idea; and it is only a few hundred years old. So 'nationality' is not an empirical scientific fact about someone.

2. There are many ways of saying where someone is 'from'.
a) Genetically, no one is 100% from any ethnicity. So we can't say that people must play for their country of ethnic origin.
b) Birth. So many people are born while their mother is temporarily abroad that saying birth determines nationality is utterly stupid. Hardly needs explaining.
c) Parentage. Gets close to 'genetically' and falls down because so many people have mixed parentage and have parents born elsewhere.
d) Residency. With 3 year rules, creates mercenaries.
e) Passport. My passport says UK, so I don't see why I shouldn't represent NI even though I've never been there. See? Doesn't work either.

Evidently, the flat out rules proposed by Fa'atau and Bullitt are simplistic and unworkable. If you ask anyone why they support an international team, there are usually a plethora of reasons - and these must be brought in to eligibility rules.

So, I'd suggest a player at the start of his career can play for:

1. Family ties - Any country that either of his parents have been to school in for 5 years or more.
2. Birth - The country where the player was born.
3. Residency - Any country where the player attended school for 5 years or more; and any country where the player has lived (and gained official nationality of) for the 5 previous years.
4. You must pick one country, and one country alone. Your first 15-a-side test cap for that country removes the chance of playing 15s for anyone else.

These rules would eradicate the chances of someone like me playing for Egypt because my dad was born there. They would permit proud Kiwis like Keven Mealamu to play for New Zealand, because they've been to school there for so long. And they'd permit guys like Mike Catt playing for England because here is where he lives, works, has a family and it's been the case for a long time.

They would prevent the likes of Flutey who are likely to head back to NZ after their career is over. They would prevent players claiming Welsh and Scottish grannies.

What they wouldn't prevent is players representing other countries in other sports, or even in 7s or League. To me this is caused by the fact that people have multiple nationalities - and while you can make them choose within one sport for the sake of the sport, you cannot in life.

 

[Teh Mite]

That's simple: Dual Nationality British/Swiss - If they choose to take the Swiss part.

Next.

 

[dullonien]

Well, many people aren't all that patriotic. You obviously are, about being English and being from Northampton, as am I about being Welsh, but shock horror, not everyone is. Many people also want to embrace the new comunity they are moving into, especially if it's going to be a long term commitment. What policies are in place that dictates that a person born in a certain country, must then define himself by that country for the rest of his life? None that I know of, infact that's exactly why rugby players are allowed to decide on their nationality if they've been living in a certain country for so long. I don't personally agree that simply living in a country for 3, 5 or even 10 years s long enough, but that's not what's being debated here.

Nationality is a personal thing in many situations. I have a friend who was born in the united emirates because that's where his dad was workign at the time. It was simply a short term job, dectated because that's where the government (his employer) sent him. He's also spent time living in Germany, England and a couple of other countries I can't remember now. However he considers himself Scottish because his dad is Scottish, and he has instilled that into him during his time wandering the world. Doesn't really matter what you say, if he considers himself Scottish, then that's what he is, simple!

 

[Teh Mite]

So he has 2 Scottish parents who happen to be natives of Scotland who were temporarily out of the country. But he still inherited the Scottish nationality from them. Covers all the basis of him be Scottish.

Why is this so bloody complex to some people?

 

[dullonien]

Sorry, it was one Scottish parent. However why is you gaining your nationality from your parents any different than gaining it from those that surround you, i.e. friends, teachers at school and the wider community.

So far, your only argument seems to be simply because. You are over simplifying things, and if you cannot see that then I give up. It's obvious most people don't agree with you, otherwise the rules would be as you state, however they aren't in any single facet of life, or any form of sport.

Edit. Ah crap, I'm spending all my time debating here, instead of writing my dissertation. I've got 200 words written in 7 hours. Set myself a target of 3000 by the end of today, meaning I've got 850 to write tonight....

 

[Teh Mite]

There is nothing wrong with adopting a CULTURE when you go somewhere (in fact, it should be encouraged - "Multi-cultural-ism" breeds animosity and destroys society). However you cannot change your heritage. If you come from somewhere, that's where you come from. If your bloodline originates somewhere, that's where it comes from.

I, for example, have one English parent and one Irish parent. That means those are the options laid out. I was born in England, to an English parent airgo I'm British - although I am more then aware of my background. Had I been born Ireland, every chance is I'd probably consider myself Irish. Technically (I think) I'm eligible for dual nationality, but I couldn't see the point in perusing that.

All that said, (EXAMPLE TIME) I can't just decide I'm going to be Canadian as of tomorrow just because I feel like it. I have no links to Canada, so what right would I have to start saying that?

I could however mover there and become naturalised, therefore allowed to stay without a visa. Won't make me Canadian though. If I met a Canadian girl out there and had a sprog, he/she'd be Canadian with British ties. He/She wouldn't however be eligible for New Zealand just because we moved to New Zealand when the kid was 6 months old.

Doesn't work like that.

 

[dullonien]

Were not talkign about suddenly deciding to become Canadian tomorrow for no good reason. Were talking about living in a country for a significant period of your life (not gonna go into how much is the 'right' amount, because I honestly don't know).

And why exactly doesn't it work like that? If that's how you feel then fine, but not everyone does. I'm sure you agree that the culture that surrounds you has a big impact in how you turn out as a human being, as well as genetics. An extreme example, people growing up surrounded by violence and abuse often grow up to be violent and abusive adults. Why is this being totally ignored?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Hi, New here but had to make a little comment

how far do you take it Bullitt? your parents are English and Irish you say? In a hyperthectical world what if their parents (your grandparents) had been born in the states...then your parents would be amercian....so you would be? then you could take people right back to africa....or eden if you are that way inclined. Nationality is a combination of things im afraid

I have to say i was in favour of the idea. In the end this is a game and should be fun. letting politics into the game is what kills it. yes, control these things but this was a very specific idea to allow skilled players getting on in years to share their talent and create spots for up and comers. some would say Roko as stopped the development of a few good wingers as he has kept hold of a spot longer than he should have

oh well