[EOYT] England vs. Argentina 09/11/13

[04perryo]

Good result, i absolutely loved Ben Morgans try well done England

 

[Big Ewis]

nothing to add here that I haven't already said.
Good and bad for England, they're on the right track but need to work on some things still.

Argentina: please, go home, rebuild everything from scratch. Will a good coach tame those pumas ??...
that defense was embarrassing in the first half, and their attack looked alright at times, but horrible at other times..

 

[Tony Manx]

England should have put 50 clear points on this game if they wanted to be the second best team in the world by the end of the season!!

Not good enough although promising enough to put them forward as contenders for the 6N but not to challenge SA or AB's at the moment.......................

Fortress Twickers? Lets see next week just how much that is true Will Greenwood!!

 

[j-dawg]

Time to turn over to the Wales game now, the 'cream of the northern hemisphere' according to most Welsh supporters (an actual quote by the way)

 

[Peat]

Think the woe over the second half might be a little overdone. Argentina were never gonna make things as easy as the first half and the job was done, first priority was ensuring they never came back.

Still, disappointing how we didn't kick on, and I think most disappointing of all if the feeling that we only play when we're allowed to play. We can't force doors open. The change in emphasis from forwards hammering at the gainline to backs going wide first up wasn't good.

Very difficult to see where the All Blacks beating performance is coming from this time.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

For the love of God Ashton needs to go. He did so much wrong in that game. Some may call it poetic justice but Argentina were getting away with quite a lot of infringements in that game (eg in the lineout driving before the man was back down)

 

[04perryo]

Agreed ashton needs to go be's become a liability and i would say he fluffed up his try that should of been so simple to finish without any controversy

 

[Wasps For Life]

What team is everyone thinking should start against new zealand?
Does Hartley start despite his discipline troubles?
Did Wilson do enough?
Is Farrell creative enough?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yes, no, no.
Hartley was decent, his main selling point is how much better the lineout looked with him on.
His hooking in the scrum was very poor - far worse than Youngs', ironically considering the fuss kicked up on here about that.

 

[Wasps For Life]

Yes, no, no.
Hartley was decent, his main selling point is how much better the lineout looked with him on.
His hooking in the scrum was very poor - far worse than Youngs', ironically considering the fuss kicked up on here about that.

Hartley to start then?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, I think I would.
He was nowhere near as good as Barnes made him out to be, but it was a solid showing and we need our lineout to be as good as possible vs the ABs.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Our lineout needs Hartley I fear.

Ashton is genuinely terrible - a complete liability.

Lawes/Launchbury is very good. However - Lawes' scrummaging was awful; his back was semi-circular at times...
Because of the way Wilson scrummages (as a platform for a lock to drive onto) I think Cole is a better options if that is the lock combo we are going to use, unfortunately.

Don't understand why 36 was taken off when Farrell was clearly not playing as well as he was.

I still have big doubts over Robshaw's ability as a captain - he looked completely complacent in the second half.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Game of two halves really: great 1st half; poorish 2nd half, which then picked up at the end with Morgan's try. Big room for improvement for next week against the ABs. I personally expect Lancaster to go with the pack that beat the all blacks last year, for next week's game, but Billy V instead of Morgan:

1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw (captain)
8. Billy Vunipola

For the backs I hope he goes for:

9. Dickson
10. Farrell
11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. Tomkins
14. Wade
15. Brown

Subs:
16. Hartley
17. Vunipola/Marler - Mako if he's fit.
18. Wilson
19. Lawes
20. Morgan
21. Ben Youngs
22. Flood
23. Foden.

 

[Peat]

I thought Hartley had a very decent game in the loose, his best for a while and better than Youngs' last week. Set piece good to decent. Has to start.

 

[Big Ewis]

Time to turn over to the Wales game now, the 'cream of the northern hemisphere' according to most Welsh supporters (an actual quote by the way)

really ?!
boy, if what I just saw was the cream of Europe, goddamn we're fkd ! naahhhh...it's not completely fair, they're heavily injured now....but still, weren't looking like they were exactly going to put 50 on SA...

 

[Aspry]

yeah ok....sorry Argentinian fans, but you're not Tier 1 anymore atm.
It's one thing to lose games, it's another to lose them by 50 or more, even at home, and having a defense that looks like a Tier 3 atm.

They've slipped. They just don't have the level to come into Twickenham right now, flat out don't have the level altogether.

Don't know why you are so surprised, I am sure many people knew this was coming and to tell the truth it could go way much worse for us.
31-12 isn't a bad result for us considering our current form. Of course it could go better without that last try... but anyways, remember we're with a new coach who only got two weeks to prepare the team with many injured players. I know it's not fair to complain about injured player when England have also a couple of them(frankly every team has injured players), but the ones from Argentina who are injured are more significant: Lobbe and Figallo are our two best players right now and Camacho is probably our best wing, at least when it comes to defense and leadership.

We are going through a difficult time indeed, many institucional and political issues are happening in the UAR nowadays and also we have internal problems in the squad between players. You may not know about what is going on, but I can assure you that all those conflicts are affecting our current game.
About our status in the international rugby... I don't really believe that thing. I don't care if people say we're not longer tier one nation. I don't give it so much importance, it's all subjective...many people will think differently.


England played good rugby at some stages, but I don't think they can beat NZ or SA right now. They are a few players who clearly don't have what it takes to perform at international level. They have a lot to improve yet if they want to win the RWC in 2015. That's my honest opinion, I hope you guys don't get mad at me.

 

[Big Ewis]

^ yes yes, I agree with everything.
But it wasn't a question of 'surprise'. I wasn't surprised, I felt a sure impression of confirmation. I saw the Pumas take 70, then almost win it at home against that exact same team. I saw them almost get their first TRC win ever in Australia by 1 point, and then saw them 55 at home against those same Wallabies.

I thought it was just a roller coaster, and it would stop. I thought it was fatigue and disorder etc etc...but now watching the Pumas play in Twickenham - and I agree it could have been worse, or better in fact - they really looked, I mean, visually, like a Tier 2 nation. I know they deserve better, much better, and there are explanatory factors and all - but the result was painful to watch.
England scored those first tries like it was nothing, the defense was soft, disorganized, slow...the attack....anyways, you know what I'm going to say.
But that scrum looked reaaally good though !

I think the Pumas are going to drag themselves painfully, collect some successful things here and there, but all this just to wait for a true leader. Their problems are so obviously the schemes, the tactics, and the organization. Sure they lack some better players at positions, but those Pumas should be right there menacing almost all Tier 1 nations consistently, as they did for a long time since around 2005.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'd say the Pumas have fallen back on the old problem of relying too much on forwards. In the previous 2 games it was just pick and drive, pick and drive. Today, pretty much the same. They don't seem to really have any alternatives.

 

[Big Ewis]

where the absolute Hell has their attacking gone ?!
Imhoff "leaving Halfpenny for dead" in Cardiff for a big 12-26 victory, two tries to none.
Pulling two tries out of a big of tricks in Australia last year with that amazing full length try started by Hernandez...

where the hell has all this gone ? to shambles ? just like that ?...

 

[Rich Taff]

I don't think the loss of one player can affect a team as much as that of Lobbe. He'd get in pretty much any international team in the world (same with Parisse for Italy). Was very disappointed in the Argentina performance (not to take anything away from England (although even Ashton looked good )).

 

[ratsapprentice]

Ashton didn't look good.

He couldn't finish what should have been an easy try and after reviewing his "try" he only grounded the ball after he was on the line.
God that guy is so ****ing galling.

His tracking lines were all far too lateral too, there were 2 big opportunities that he could have taken had he run a better line from what I can remember.

 

[Aspry]

where the absolute Hell has their attacking gone ?!
Imhoff "leaving Halfpenny for dead" in Cardiff for a big 12-26 victory, two tries to none.
Pulling two tries out of a big of tricks in Australia last year with that amazing full length try started by Hernandez...

where the hell has all this gone ? to shambles ? just like that ?...

Well, the Pumas backs got nearly no ball to play. We use excessively the foot in my opinion, and if not we only limited to play with the forwards, but we can't take much from that.. only a few penalties that won't take us anywhere in the score.

Also, it is true that a lot of players have lowered their performance recently, like for example Hernandez and Lucas González Amorosino.

Hernandez career was over a while ago due to all the injuries he suffered. He still got some technique, but that's not enough for play international rugby.

Lucas González hasn't make one of his epic runs in a while now, I reckon that is because he is more worried about the defense than in the attack. I think that's also the problem in many of the other backs.

Agulla?? Can't remember the last time he broke a couple of tackles. The stats speaks for itself, he can't score a try with the Pumas since 2009... Lately he doesn't bring nothing to the team.

Fernandez?? never conviced me tbh.. I wouldn't have him on my team. I guess there's no other choice.

Bosch? Probably our best back this year. The only one that seems to try to attack the opposite ingoal, and the only one that has succeeded so far. Can't complain about him, he does a lot in defense and his large distance kicks are great for us (though he haven't played well this match).

Cordero?? has some great potential but he's just to young to put all the pressure on him.

About Imhoff... we can't really expect him to do all the job.. Also he might miss the match vs Wales due to an injury, I hope he can make it.

 

[Deleted member 53362]

Right where to start....

Ashton, Tomkins and have to say Farrell are not international class players. Were the passes from 36 going behind Tomkins because he cannot pass or Tomkins kept over running the play?

The pack were OK, Wilson played well but felt the scrum was a bit more stable when Cole came on. Hartley is England's No1 hooker and when he is playing well no one comes close I also think we could possibly move to the captains role when (and I eat humble pie saying this) Robshaw is dropped because I dont think he can take England any further. Not sure about the 2nd row its more like another back row, lacking a Johnson/Shaw type of player I think.

For the NZ game I would like to see Flood start at 10, Wade and Yarde start on the wings and if either are injured then anyone but Ashton (Thomas Waldrom would be fine) and any but Tomkins at centre.

Front row would be Corbs, Hartley and would like Wilson to have another start.

Dont know who to bring in the 2nd row to add bulk or the backrow but would like to see some bigger changes for the 6 nations the whole back line apart from Brown and Manu when fit are deserving their place at the minute it might be down to they way they are being coached but something is wrong because the backs are not deserving of the forwards at the minute.

 

[Patchey]

Ashton is a joke. When I saw he'd scored (couldn't watch the game live) I just knew it would be a easy pop-pass try that he'd almost screwed up. The fact that he was actually out of play when he grounded the ball sums it all up really. I very much hope he doesn't get to dine off it for a few more games.


No more comments until I've found somewhere to watch the entire game, not just a few minutes of try scoring highlights.

 

[Big Ewis]

Well, the Pumas backs got nearly no ball to play. We use excessively the foot in my opinion, and if not we only limited to play with the forwards, but we can't take much from that.. only a few penalties that won't take us anywhere in the score.

Also, it is true that a lot of players have lowered their performance recently, like for example Hernandez and Lucas González Amorosino.

Hernandez career was over a while ago due to all the injuries he suffered. He still got some technique, but that's not enough for play international rugby.

Lucas González hasn't make one of his epic runs in a while now, I reckon that is because he is more worried about the defense than in the attack. I think that's also the problem in many of the other backs.

Agulla?? Can't remember the last time he broke a couple of tackles. The stats speaks for itself, he can't score a try with the Pumas since 2009... Lately he doesn't bring nothing to the team.

Fernandez?? never conviced me tbh.. I wouldn't have him on my team. I guess there's no other choice.

Bosch? Probably our best back this year. The only one that seems to try to attack the opposite ingoal, and the only one that has succeeded so far. Can't complain about him, he does a lot in defense and his large distance kicks are great for us (though he haven't played well this match).

Cordero?? has some great potential but he's just to young to put all the pressure on him.

About Imhoff... we can't really expect him to do all the job.. Also he might miss the match vs Wales due to an injury, I hope he can make it.

yeah well reading it written like that, point by point, it sure seems enough to explain the drop in productivity...and Hernandez still had some awesome Rugby in him just last year, man. Yeah, Bosch has had some moments.
There are quality backs...quality forwards too in fact, but just no quality play.
But we can't forget the importance of Lobbe in this match. He's a fetcher and a big weapon at the breakdown, but a big leader it seems. His influence on this squad is matched by no other Puma.

But clearly, as a priority, the Pumas are to work on a real defensive system.

 

[j'nuh]

I've just been reading the stats.

In the 25 minutes they were on, Morgan made 12 tackles and Parling 11. That can't be right?

 

[Peat]

The pack were OK, Wilson played well but felt the scrum was a bit more stable when Cole came on. Hartley is England's No1 hooker and when he is playing well no one comes close I also think we could possibly move to the captains role when (and I eat humble pie saying this) Robshaw is dropped because I dont think he can take England any further. Not sure about the 2nd row its more like another back row, lacking a Johnson/Shaw type of player I think.

Why do you think Robshaw can't take England any further?

Can't agree with your statement re Hartley. Youngs at his best is better than Hartley at his best, and we've seen more of the former as well.

 

[Deleted member 53362]

Why do you think Robshaw can't take England any further?

Can't agree with your statement re Hartley. Youngs at his best is better than Hartley at his best, and we've seen more of the former as well.

How far have England gone in 2 years? Yes the culture is better etc etc but are we winning anymore games and are we playing better rugby? Honestly I dont think we are. When SL took over yes it was a mess and he needed a yoeman type of bloke, a steady eddie to settle the ship and that was Robshaw and he has done well but to go to the next level do you belive he is the man to lead? I have often defended him on here (Normally against Rats) but Saturday showed that he doesnt have the strength to get a grip of the team and that does make me sad but its the truth.

As for Hartley, if he is on his A game he is better than Youngs is currently and I am a big fan of Youngs. His Hooking and lineout throwing is better and when he puts hi mind to it as good in the loose. Youngs offers lots of energy and is a bit of a nut job but as long as Hartley keeps his mind on playing he is better.

 

[Wasps For Life]

Robshaw I think is a perfect captain and leads from the front.
Eventually I would prefer him at 6 but that's a whole different story..

 

[ratsapprentice]

He's a good leader but I still haven't seen any real "captaincy" from him.
The team clearly dropped their intensity after half time and I saw very little from Chris to suggest that he was trying to reverse this, or had even recognised it at all.
As I've said, I think he (and the rest of the team) looked complacent.
But there isn't really anyone else that looks able to do that either... otherwise they would have done it.