[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand vs England (1st Test)

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Seems mental too me. New Zealand found alot of space behind Yarde and May so putting a centre out there is going to help ? And what is he like under the high ball ? I'm sure he would cause the defence a problem but would he also hinder his own defence ?

He played winger at tigers to begin with but that wasn't against big sides.

Cant ever remember the last time he took a high ball.

I cant see the logic in trying it, Yarde should be given more time or put Ashton in.

SCW thoughts have been hit and miss lately, like putting 36 straight into the starting line up when he only lightly trained with England the past week and he has been out since May 3rd.

For the Canterbury game would have Twelvetrees playing, and see how it goes from there.

 

[Tony Manx]

No there is no other argument other than Ashton has been playing well..

On that basis, Cips should have been playing today.....ah wait, he does not play for Sarries!!

 

[TheSaffycen]

On that basis, Cips should have been playing today.....ah wait, he does not play for Sarries!!

I had Cipriani in my starting 15. I don't select the team.

EDIT- by the way i don't think that every Sarries player has a god given right to play for any team. I believe that Ashton's form has made him deserving of an England spot, i don't think that Barritt, Goode or Wigglesworth who have been called up are anywhere near good enough.

 

[kesh]

People would want Ashton set on fire if he'd been sent off. Still, bench option, Burt left him in too long when off-form, still a proven international winger to have but Yarde should be given a run of games.

Yeah the England team to face the Crusaders will obviously be. 3rd string team.

Maybe try Tuilagi on the left wing after he's started at 13, bring Burrell on as sub for May to replace Manu at 13. My only reservation would be that defensively we don't know what Manu would be like on the left wing. We don't really want a repeat of the last few mins v France this year when Burrell was outmanoeuvred for the French winning try.

Can't help think that maybe there was a reason he got moved from winger to centre early on. How is he under the hight ball? Under pressure would he kick it like May and chase instinctively or run and get isolated, avoids touch, he just doesn't come across as a winger, maybe Burrell would make a better winger.

 

[Deleted member 53362]

Why would you put Manu on the wing? Its like putting Mike Brown on the wing. Yes there could both do the job but they are far far better being their normal position. Look how well Brown has played for England since going to full back. Keep Manu at 13 he had a good game today Im sure there are kiwis reading this thinking "what the hell are they talking about? I hope he does go on the wing"

 

[The Jones Boy]

On England, the two first fives both looked better than Owen Farrell.

On the AB's.
Very poor showing.
Rusty rusty rusty.
Expecting a massive improvement in the space of just one week.
I also expect the pons to get better as well.
Bodes well for the second test.

For England this was the one that got away. Leadership looks an issue for them.

For the AB's the tight five were disappointing and that is partly because they're not that good and partly because England has a wide variety of excellent top drawer tight 5 players to choose from.
I expect more problems for our tight 5 during the next two matches.
Parling and Lawes are possibly the best locks in the world and Launchbury is close to them.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Can't help think that maybe there was a reason he got moved from winger to centre early on. How is he under the hight ball? Under pressure would he kick it like May and chase instinctively or run and get isolated, avoids touch, he just doesn't come across as a winger, maybe Burrell would make a better winger.

It's good to have players who can play numerous positions but there is no need to move Burrell or Tuilagi out there. You miss out on Burrell's offloading and running game, as well as creating space for players outwide. Just put a winger out there or someone like Daly who is a complete player in every back three position.

 

[kesh]

Well yea, playing Cip/Burns with Burrell and Tuilagi for the Canterbury game at some point would be better.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Well yea, playing Cip/Burns with Burrell and Tuilagi for the Canterbury game at some point would be better.

I would want to see the Burrell/Tuilagi partnership

My team for the second test
1.Marler - easy pick as he was really good all round
2.Webber - Again he was brilliant and how can you drop a man with 100% lineout
3.Sinkler/Wilson- woodcock does not look like the prop he once was and Kyle could have him on toast
4.Parling- Was really impressive after i said how dissapointed with his selection
5.Lawes- Launchbury was alright but i think Lawes can up the intensity on defence
6.Haskell- England's top tackler really good
7.Robshaw- Personally my MOTM and is a great captain
8.Morgan- Again he was soo good and should start again next week
9.Care- No brainer
10.Burns- where was he all year !!!
11.May- He had a bit more about him this game but still doesn't look like he will score tries
12.Eastmond- showed how brilliant he is and his Manu partnership could flourish
13.Tuilagi- Needs too pass a little more but sucks 4 players in all the time
14.Foden- not just too spite Yarde but because under the high ball Foden can help Brown out and has a big boot to get us out of trouble
15.Brown- Poor by his standards but i think he will get better with more time

16.Hartley
17.Corbs- not sure if he is fit though so Mullan if not
18.Wilson/Sinkler
19.Launchbury- great off the bench at 5 or 6
20.Vunipola
21.Youngs- wasn't actually that bad i thought
22.Cipriani - can cover 10,14,15 has alot of pace
23.Burrell

 

[HenryChinaski]

Feel its a bit disingenuous to try and suggest England were missing less significant players than New Zealand; kaino has been and has the potential to return to being one of the best players in the world. Cruden might very well be keeping carter out if the latter wasn't on a sabbatical. This should not be enough to hamper the efforts of an all black side with such strength in depth. England were missing half a dozen maybe more British and Irish Lions and surely that must count for something.

HAVING SAID THAT:

Such was England's performance today that on the day it didn't matter hugely. I don't think the others would have made too much difference.
Corbisero and Cole would have done IF substituted on and actually having to scrummage. Vunipola over Johnson could have. All hypothetical though. Now I think about it Care definitely would have and it was Young's error which killed us.

New Zealand made uncharacteristic mistakes I hear people say, but don't forget so did england. You dont usually see mike brown make 3 knock ons.

There is no doubt in my mind that new Zealand can and will play better, but there's also no doubt in my mind that had they done so today , it would still have been close. The gap has closed, and its no longer new Zealand's whims determining the score lines but it rather the opposition determine this by their performances. There is correlelation between opposition playing well and new Zealand winning by less. NZ aren't the only active agent here.

Look Owens was poor today, no reason to not agree but also no reason to this k it didn't affect the game. One of those knock one led directly to a 3 pointer. Try and tell me that's not significant in a game like that!

BUT: I still believe new Zealand despite that were alright value for a win. Why do they need to play better to deserve a win, just because its them? It took a good team to be able to best england today and that's what new Zealand me.

 

[Big Ewis]

My team for the second test
1.Marler - easy pick as he was really good all round
2.Webber - Again he was brilliant and how can you drop a man with 100% lineout
3.Sinkler/Wilson- woodcock does not look like the prop he once was and Kyle could have him on toast
4.Parling- Was really impressive after i said how dissapointed with his selection
5.Lawes- Launchbury was alright but i think Lawes can up the intensity on defence
6.Haskell- England's top tackler really good
7.Robshaw- Personally my MOTM and is a great captain
8.Morgan- Again he was soo good and should start again next week
9.Care- No brainer
10.Burns- where was he all year !!!
11.May- He had a bit more about him this game but still doesn't look like he will score tries
12.Eastmond- showed how brilliant he is and his Manu partnership could flourish
13.Tuilagi- Needs too pass a little more but sucks 4 players in all the time
14.Foden- not just too spite Yarde but because under the high ball Foden can help Brown out and has a big boot to get us out of trouble
15.Brown- Poor by his standards but i think he will get better with more time

16.Hartley
17.Corbs- not sure if he is fit though so Mullan if not
18.Wilson/Sinkler
19.Launchbury- great off the bench at 5 or 6
20.Vunipola
21.Youngs- wasn't actually that bad i thought
22.Cipriani - can cover 10,14,15 has alot of pace
23.Burrell

I'd make a few changes, if I may:

8 - Vunipola is an enormous handful for any team (except Toulon ) and he's well surrounded here in the England squad and won't be isolated. Adds a platform of his own, just like a very scrum. Can't be left out. Plus, Morgan is a great punch of the bench and will puncture harder if he's fresh.

10 - Owen Farrell's injured ? Forgot...I thought he was just not playing for this test because he was in the Prem final.

12-13: Burrell-Tuilagi. that's a lot of meat, and will take up a lot of attention from the AB on each contact. I'm sure if they're confronted about it by the staff, they can make an effort to pass more, and they both have the ability to.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I'd make a few changes, if I may:

8 - Vunipola is an enormous handful for any team (except Toulon ) and he's well surrounded here in the England squad and won't be isolated. Adds a platform of his own, just like a very scrum. Can't be left out. Plus, Morgan is a great punch of the bench and will puncture harder if he's fresh.

10 - Owen Farrell's injured ? Forgot...I thought he was just not playing for this test because he was in the Prem final.

12-13: Burrell-Tuilagi. that's a lot of meat, and will take up a lot of attention from the AB on each contact. I'm sure if they're confronted about it by the staff, they can make an effort to pass more, and they both have the ability to.

A bit unfair to be dropping Morgan after his performance against New Zealand, Farrell isn't injured but i think both the 10's where brilliant and gave england a better edge, Eastmond was crazy good and his partnership with Tuilagi could be amazing

 

[willutalk]

1) Marler
2) Webber
3) Wilson
4) Lawes
5) Launchberry
6) Haskell
7) Robshaw
8) Vunipola

9) Care
10) Farrell
11) May
12) Eastmond
13) Tuilagi
14) Ashton
15) Brown

16) Hartley
17) Corbisiero
18) Mullan
19) Attwood
20) Wood
21) Dickson
22) Burns
23) Foden

I'd go with something like this if I were Lancaster.

 

[goodNumber10]

Here is my argument - Yarde deliberately made a foul to stop a try, Fekitoa tried to affect a turn over. One player was trying to do something illegal which I would say is what cynical is, while the other was trying to do something legal.

That get's the lol of the day.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

1) Marler


I'd go with something like this if I were Lancaster.

Corbisiero isn't on tour.

 

[goodNumber10]

I'd just like to say...

FREDDIE BURNS.

To every single one of you lancaster doubters

He made his tackles, he kept it simple in attack and one over cooked kick aside was on the ball with his kicking from hand and the tee.

Cipriani did look comfortable when he came on though... lovely break.

 

[exeter]

Corbisiero isn't on tour.

 

[Peat]

No there is no other argument other than Ashton has been playing well. My point i was making was not just on Yarde, all wingers we have used including Nowell and May have been average at best IMO. I see Yarde play and i think what has he got ? Like genuinely what has he shown ? Personally i had Roko to be starting instead of him but as he isn't selected the only other winger is Ashton. Ashton was under intense scrutiny for many valid reasons (form, defence, looking like he just didn't give a **** sometimes) but then because it is Yarde everyone seems to be okay with sub-par performances, this was his biggest test and it isn't easy for anyone but he didn't show me that he was any better than Ashton.
Also sorry about my comment and acting like a total c,unt.


Yeah really seemed like it was trying to continue a discussion, when i first read it i just interpreted it as him telling me to shut up about Ashton and that my point didn't mean jack ****. Which technically it doesn't but i still felt it was undeserved as i was just saying my opinion.

Ahh, I phrased it poorly as well - some things don't carry over well in text. So sorry about coming across like a knob.

Thing is, bringing in Ashton complicates the argument over Yarde due to the baggage that Ashton has. It's why I feel you're gonna get a better debate on Yarde without mentioning him. I'd kinda forgotten our tiny number of specialist wings, although that points to Lancaster seriously considering guys like Foden, Tuilagi and Pennell out there.

Anyway -

The difference between Yarde and Ashton - Ashton's probably not going to get any better. He's played a lot of rugby, he's got solid test experience, he's had a huge run of uninterrupted game time. It's fair to say we know what he can do and it is an offering with some serious flaws and no huge plus points in this current set-up. Yarde almost definitely will get better. He's a young man, he's learning the game. His flaws are more excusable.

He also brings more plus points. He has better athleticism and physicality. He's a lot less worrying as a guy to mark Savea.

That's the difference. Yarde has more future and, all form being even, brings more to the table. He was in very good form for London Irish. So far that hasn't translated into good performances against non-Argentine opposition, but we have hope. Very few people have hope for Ashton.

Does that make sense/seem fair?

As for Roko - lots of people very excited about him, but he really wasn't very much against Baabaas. There's a lot of criticism for Lancaster's tendency to stick stubbornly to players, but when you look at the teething problems so many of our players have had coming into international rugby, you can see why he's loath to stop using players he's built trust in and is slow to place trust in the first place. Maybe that does argue for Ashton, but I really can't ignore the pattern there. I'd like to see Ashton get the Crusaders game, try and play his way back in. Barring poor training, Yarde deserves a chance at redemption. He's rarely had the chance to string games together for England. If he fluffs that, talk again then.

 

[exeter]

Lancaster now has massive selection headaches, which of course are better than having no options at all, but might put his team management skills to the test. A few of the players might not appreciate getting dropped after good performances (which would of course indicate they don't have the temperament to play for England - but not everybody can be a selfless hero). It's getting to the point where very good players might not even get into the EPS next season.

 

[HenryChinaski]

Talking of cipriani and that 'tackle' on him... I thought the irb had issued strict guidance to cut down on no armed tackles? So including instances like that where the player launches headfirst at the guys legs! Seen some penalties from it this season in super rugby.