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End of the Saint-André era

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Ville rose
The one good thing about that Eng-Fra game other than its entertainment value is that it signals the end of the Saint-André era. This is the ONE and only game of the last 3.5 yrs Fra have ever turned up.

This is an awful defeat in line with the last 3.5 yrs, but at least the players got their performance.

I've asked many rugby people around me: not one could come up with a performance to remember from the PSA era. Not one game stood out before today's.

The difference btw the 2 sides over the last 4 yrs is poles apart. England have been building patiently with a long term plan, a steady group of players, a young 10 who has the full support (unlike our fly-halves) and players ready to repay the staff for their trust - this is the exact opposite of the Blue Barnum of the last 3.5 yrs.

Why would they finally decide to play when there was nothing to play for? To me there are 3 reasons. One is that the Saint-André Lagisquet shackles are starting to come off. The 2nd is the players took charge of that game. This one didn't come from the staff as Fra have never produced a performance under the current staff. This was the players making a statement, which coincides with the staff's last 6N in charge. Three, the players have started to focus on their WC.

This is players starting to take control. The staff cannot take any credit for today's performance. They will try and we'll get the media BS all week trying to milk the 'positives' for the staff's personal gain. All the changes they made were forced (Plisson, Debatty, Fickou, Mermoz etc) not chosen. Plisson was thrown in at the deep end at Twickenham. They didn't do him a favour. He has been in fine form all season with his club relegating Morney Steyn to the bench. They called him back when they were stuck after Lopez was summoned home by his club. They used him as a filler. Now Tales must be wondering what he is doing in the group. And Lopez's gone back to Clermont.

Under Saint-André it's NEVER been the staff's fault, always the players.

There is a massive generation gap with the playrers. Blanco Lagisquet and Saint-André belong to the amateur era of the 80s. Their rugby language is that of the 80s. They're not on the same wavelength as the professionals they claim to coach.

The staff are mere figureheads. The latest war of words with Clermont this week showed how toothless and useless FFr truly are. Clermont only had to bang their fist on the table to get their way and their player back.

Now les Bleus need Parra and FTD back as their playmakers and to get some leadership back into the group. And lock away Blanco and Lagisquet for the next 6 mths.
If these players have enough cojones they will coach themselves at the WC.
 
First class post other than I seem to recall at least one famous victory at an autumn international being Australia or South Africa? Was it at Nantes? Seem to remember BigEwis ( ah memories) banging on about it?

As regards Budda and his side kick Lagisquet.... Please keep them as far away from Biarritz as possible and if that means the national side losing, so be it!!!!!!
 
First class post other than I seem to recall at least one famous victory at an autumn international being Australia or South Africa? Was it at Nantes? Seem to remember BigEwis ( ah memories) banging on about it?

As regards Budda and his side kick Lagisquet.... Please keep them as far away from Biarritz as possible and if that means the national side losing, so be it!!!!!!

I'll have to look it up I can't remember either :lol: just what I was saying!
 
Although i thoroughly enjoyed all the games yesterday one game does not, create a brilliant team ( France) who still lost by 20 pts. The idea of the players taking charge and making a statement is fine but this is by no means the first or second time that it has happened. PSA is still there and it is he who is the selectioner until after the WC, so how is this going to change anything. Although i agree with French Fan's post, he is still clutching at straws if the truth is known. PSA knows his carrottes sont cuit, but he will milk every chance he has, to shown how good he is, cant wait for A2 Sport this afternoon where he is a guest. The way the 3 games pannned out yesterday was perfect, Wales set the target, Ireland then beat the target, leaving England knowing exactly what they had to do, they came up just short but produced a match of great entertainment, some purists may have negative thoughts, but it just shows that if teams want to play running rugby as there was nothing to win by only just winning the game they can.
The very fact that PSA is still in charge does mean that come the WC there will be no change and even England will go back to their normal game.
I'm afraid this was a one off situation where the stats need to win the Championship were laid down so well without anyone knowing it and hence the fantastic day of rugby we all had.
Bravo Ireland, but also to the other 5 teams that produced rugby that we see not to often these days this will go down as a great days rugby no more no less.
 
Although i thoroughly enjoyed all the games yesterday one game does not, create a brilliant team ( France) who still lost by 20 pts. The idea of the players taking charge and making a statement is fine but this is by no means the first or second time that it has happened. PSA is still there and it is he who is the selectioner until after the WC, so how is this going to change anything. Although i agree with French Fan's post, he is still clutching at straws if the truth is known. PSA knows his carrottes sont cuit, but he will milk every chance he has, to shown how good he is, cant wait for A2 Sport this afternoon where he is a guest. The way the 3 games pannned out yesterday was perfect, Wales set the target, Ireland then beat the target, leaving England knowing exactly what they had to do, they came up just short but produced a match of great entertainment, some purists may have negative thoughts, but it just shows that if teams want to play running rugby as there was nothing to win by only just winning the game they can.
The very fact that PSA is still in charge does mean that come the WC there will be no change and even England will go back to their normal game.
I'm afraid this was a one off situation where the stats need to win the Championship were laid down so well without anyone knowing it and hence the fantastic day of rugby we all had.
Bravo Ireland, but also to the other 5 teams that produced rugby that we see not to often these days this will go down as a great days rugby no more no less.

Totally agree with all that! Talk about mixed metaphors though.....carrots acooking and milk aspilling!!!!
 
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Although i thoroughly enjoyed all the games yesterday one game does not, create a brilliant team ( France) who still lost by 20 pts. The idea of the players taking charge and making a statement is fine but this is by no means the first or second time that it has happened.

Not sure when it happened before. What game? I've never seen them turn up for a game under Saint-Andre. That was the first time.

PSA is still there and it is he who is the selectioner until after the WC, so how is this going to change anything. Although i agree with French Fan's post, he is still clutching at straws if the truth is known.

yes the staff will try and get credit for anything positive. They're the ones holding to the job they should have resigned from a long time ago, they've done nothing to deserve the players trust and they don't have their trust.

The very fact that PSA is still in charge does mean that come the WC there will be no change and even England will go back to their normal game.
PSA is no longer in charge. Blanco is.

I'm afraid this was a one off situation where the stats need to win the Championship were laid down so well without anyone knowing it and hence the fantastic day of rugby we all had.5 teams that produced rugby that we see not to often these days this will go down as a great days rugby no more no less.
All i'm saying if they want to do something at their WC they can because we have the players to beat anyone but they need to take control and shut out the staff. They don't need the dinosaurs who claim to coach them, it's the only way for them to have a good WC.
 
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The one good thing about that Eng-Fra game other than its entertainment value is that it signals the end of the Saint-André era. This is the ONE and only game of the last 3.5 yrs Fra have ever turned up.

This is an awful defeat in line with the last 3.5 yrs, but at least the players got their performance.

I've asked many rugby people around me: not one could come up with a performance to remember from the PSA era. Not one game stood out before today's.

The difference btw the 2 sides over the last 4 yrs is poles apart. England have been building patiently with a long term plan, a steady group of players, a young 10 who has the full support (unlike our fly-halves) and players ready to repay the staff for their trust - this is the exact opposite of the Blue Barnum of the last 3.5 yrs.

Why would they finally decide to play when there was nothing to play for? To me there are 3 reasons. One is that the Saint-André Lagisquet shackles are starting to come off. The 2nd is the players took charge of that game. This one didn't come from the staff as Fra have never produced a performance under the current staff. This was the players making a statement, which coincides with the staff's last 6N in charge. Three, the players have started to focus on their WC.

This is players starting to take control. The staff cannot take any credit for today's performance. They will try and we'll get the media BS all week trying to milk the 'positives' for the staff's personal gain. All the changes they made were forced (Plisson, Debatty, Fickou, Mermoz etc) not chosen. Plisson was thrown in at the deep end at Twickenham. They didn't do him a favour. He has been in fine form all season with his club relegating Morney Steyn to the bench. They called him back when they were stuck after Lopez was summoned home by his club. They used him as a filler. Now Tales must be wondering what he is doing in the group. And Lopez's gone back to Clermont.

Under Saint-André it's NEVER been the staff's fault, always the players.

There is a massive generation gap with the playrers. Blanco Lagisquet and Saint-André belong to the amateur era of the 80s. Their rugby language is that of the 80s. They're not on the same wavelength as the professionals they claim to coach.

The staff are mere figureheads. The latest war of words with Clermont this week showed how toothless and useless FFr truly are. Clermont only had to bang their fist on the table to get their way and their player back.

Now les Bleus need Parra and FTD back as their playmakers and to get some leadership back into the group. And lock away Blanco and Lagisquet for the next 6 mths.
If these players have enough cojones they will coach themselves at the WC.

Excellent post.
Totally agree with you FF.
 
@FrenchFan The last time I understand that the players took over was the 2011 RWC when the Biarritz ((again) trio took dressing room control from Lievremont!!
 
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There were many natural leaders in that team which is what saved them in the end. yes the Basque mafia was at it again ;)

I've never seen a team so shorn of leaders. In every generation under every manager there's always been leaders. I haven't seen them under the current staff. They're stifled by the environment around them. Once the group is announced and players know they are going to the WC then they will come out because it's bound to happen. They can't suppress that forever.
Blanco is a control freak. He is a toxic individual because he is the one who will try and snuff out player power because he wants to be the 'man in charge' when in reality he is completely out of his depth. They didn't bring him in for la 3e mi-temps. They know PSA has lost the dressing room. And he has his own personal agenda which is the 2016 FFr presidency election. If the team is said to have had a good WC he will take all the credit for it and get elected (he is already vice-president).

I hope for their sake the players ignore them and get on with it.
 
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Which coaches do you guys think are the way forward for France international then - I have no idea, so I'm interested in getting the perspective from people such as yourselves, that are closer to ground zero.

Not saying that you're wrong about coaches that are ex players from the amateur era FF (I actually believe that you don't have to have played the game internationally to be a great international coach), but those players you mentioned were pretty innovative in their day, which you would hope, would assist them in their coaching duties.

There are also a few good coaches from the amateur days (Wayne Smith, Robbie Deans), so I don't necessarily see that this should discount amateur players from being good coaches.

As a last point, if RWC is the measure (and I don't think it should be, but I'm probably in a minority), you don't have to coach a side that achieves a winning performance consistently. You only have to be able to get to the knock out stages, and then have ability/potential to knock over sides in one off, knock out matches - surely France has proven their ability to do this in recent times.
 
There were many natural leaders in that team which is what saved them in the end. yes the Basque mafia was at it again ;)

I've never seen a team so shorn of leaders. In every generation under every manager there's always been leaders. I haven't seen them under the current staff. They're stifled by the environment around them. Once the group is announced and players know they are going to the WC then they will come out because it's bound to happen. They can't suppress that forever.
Blanco is a control freak. He is a toxic individual because he is the one who will try and snuff out player power because he wants to be the 'man in charge' when in reality he is completely out of his depth. They didn't bring him in for la 3e mi-temps. They know PSA has lost the dressing room. And he has his own personal agenda which is the 2016 FFr presidency election. If the team is said to have had a good WC he will take all the credit for it and get elected (he is already vice-president).

I hope for their sake the players ignore them and get on with it.

Your views about Budda strike a chord with me but two comments:

1 the holy trinity still controlled Biarritz until they were finally shown the door/left due to relegation which, to this interest spectator, they did not do enough to avoid.

2 if he is elected President then maybe, just maybe, he will point a decent CEO to take over the club and not just hand it back to a puppet like Martin!!

The holy trinity were at fault but the one person who is more responsible for BO being in Pro2 is the pillock Blanco.......who,strangely enough, was the reason I started supporting them!!!
 
Your views about Budda strike a chord with me but two comments:

1 the holy trinity still controlled Biarritz until they were finally shown the door/left due to relegation which, to this interest spectator, they did not do enough to avoid.

so that's Harynordoquy Yachvili and Blanco right?

2 if he is elected President then maybe, just maybe, he will point a decent CEO to take over the club and not just hand it back to a puppet like Martin!!

I think he will get the job. Laporte is only an outsider which is a shame as he would bring a much needed sea change if he got it.

The holy trinity were at fault but the one person who is more responsible for BO being in Pro2 is the pillock Blanco.......who,strangely enough, was the reason I started supporting them!!!

Blanco's got a finger in every pie. He is now the national team manager, Biarritz president, FFr vice-president and candidate to the presidency (and business owner). This is what's wrong in French rugby. You've got guys like him who cumulates titles and have way too much power and not the competence to go with. If you listen to him he thinks he has that god given right to have all that power.
 
so that's Harynordoquy Yachvili and Blanco right?



I think he will get the job. Laporte is only an outsider which is a shame as he would bring a much needed sea change if he got it.



Blanco's got a finger in every pie. He is now the national team manager, Biarritz president, FFr vice-president and candidate to the presidency (and business owner). This is what's wrong in French rugby. You've got guys like him who cumulates titles and have way too much power and not the competence to go with. If you listen to him he thinks he has that god given right to have all that power.

Third one was Traille!

President in Biarritz means managing director, chief financial officer, chief operations director, director of rugby and general effing controller!!!

In Biarritz he is God and that is why they are doomed!!!
 
Let's talk theoretically here ...

Who would your France match day 23 be and the coaching staff to go with it?
 
Third one was Traille!

President in Biarritz means managing director, chief financial officer, chief operations director, director of rugby and general effing controller!!!

In Biarritz he is God and that is why they are doomed!!!

ah yes Damien Traille (Try) forgot about him. Yes the Biarrots gang led the anti-Lievremont cabal. How did they expect 3 basques to get on with a catalan?! :D

But they had some great leaders as well like Servat and Bonnaire. The latter is still very popular and always well spoken of.
 
Hey I agree with you on many things but on that occasion they not only saved the day against the selection and gam tactics of an idiot but against an ex Biarriot!!!!!
 
Let's talk theoretically here ...

Who would your France match day 23 be and the coaching staff to go with it?

Seems to me thats the key. There's zero structure in what they're doing at the minute and its compounded by SA's insistence in changing players week in, week out. They lose shape in attack, players are unclear of their jobs and so you get error strewn performances like the one against Italy.

In short, the players have great ability but short of a coherent plan that means little.
 
Firstly you have to understand how the FFR works before trying to change the team and the way they play......
PSA was the choice by the FFR its all politics and little sport up in Paris.
The FFR is a big band of brothers with massive power they do not want to loose control of anything, hence the bringing in of Blanco, who failed at Biarritz in the end and still not sure whether they will return to the elite ?? He also keeps his finger on the buton for the FFR.
Galthie was the obvious choice but does not have many allies in the FFR.
Ibanez and Pelous are the likely contenders after the departure of PSA, all appreciated in Paris (which is most important) and they will not rock the boat.
The players will never take over for the WC as there are no definate leaders to do so, when Galthie did it in 2003 he had plenty of backing not the case today, but it marked his card for future positions within the FFR.
France have the players they showed plenty of that on Sat. they need a coach not an FFR muppet as PSA is.
I have worked in Paris with the FFR and saw exactly how it works, have worked at 2007 WC and exactly the same, it's very similar to fonctionaires in France!!!!.
Blanco looks set to be the next President so i cant see changes, this is just one of many reasons why the French Club and FFR are more or less at continual loggerheads, there are many many more reasons and examples but don't want to bore you all silly.
 
FFr will make a political appointment i.e get a guy they like and get on well with. That rules out Galthié who is a great technician but too much of a maverick for the parisians. Pelous and Ibanez have a better chance if they're interested. Pelous is the current U20 coach but very light on experience would be a poor choice for the senior side.

People forget quickly FFr have an appaling record at appointing coaches. Now they are stuck once again. They were just as stuck in 2007 when they appointed Lievremont out of nowhere. They went for a young inexperienced coach, they plucked him out of ProD2 for the 'top job'. They should call it the Knob Job.

There will be very few top candidates lining up. None of the best French coaches outside of Galthié and Ibanez are interested (Laporte Noves Azema Landreau Urios etc basically 90% of all head coaches, that's a lot of uninterested coaching talent!).

Will they consider a coach from overseas? I doubt it. The only foreigner I can see would be Quesada (Stade Francais) because he has been around for a long time. I don't know if he is even interested.
 
FFr will make a political appointment i.e get a guy they like and get on well with. That rules out Galthié who is a great technician but too much of a maverick for the parisians. Pelous and Ibanez have a better chance if they're interested. Pelous is the current U20 coach but very light on experience would be a poor choice for the senior side.

People forget quickly FFr have an appaling record at appointing coaches. Now they are stuck once again. They were just as stuck in 2007 when they appointed Lievremont out of nowhere. They went for a young inexperienced coach, they plucked him out of ProD2 for the 'top job'. They should call it the Knob Job.

There will be very few top candidates lining up. None of the best French coaches outside of Galthié and Ibanez are interested (Laporte Noves Azema Landreau Urios etc basically 90% of all head coaches, that's a lot of uninterested coaching talent!).

Will they consider a coach from overseas? I doubt it. The only foreigner I can see would be Quesada (Stade Francais) because he has been around for a long time. I don't know if he is even interested.


Whoever they will take as head coach won't change anything. French rugby is only based on top 14 and doesn't care a single moment about the national team. How can you create a "team" with players only being toghether 2 weeks before 6N each year and 1 week before AI ... The FFR/LNR schedule does not permit any team construction and cohesion ... So you can put any coach you want, it will always be the same.
 
The idea of it always being the same is burrying your head in the sand!!! I agree it has been bad for a while but if the bad results continue something has to be done, a better working relationship between the 3 parties FFR, LNR, and the TOP 14, clubs, would kick start something, Pelous has some good experience and Ibanez is learning fast so the 2 together is probably the best team available at the moment.The talent is there in France just need someone to use it to its full potential.
 
Let's talk theoretically here ...

Who would your France match day 23 be and the coaching staff to go with it?

I'd say there are a few certainties.
Hookers: Guirado and Kayser seem to be the choices, don't think the staff could choose anyone else. If a third hooker is taken to England, it will probably be Szarzewski.
Props: Mas, Ben Arous and Debaty seem to be the coaches' favourites. The fourth could be Slimani or Atonio (and Mas could be left out too in favour of these two).
Locks: Maestri is a sure starter, and Papé would be the second one. For the bench, one of Flanquart, Vahamaahina or Taofifenua. I think that for the WC squad it will be only one of the last two.
Backrowers: Picamoles is really expected back, and Dusatoir is an obvious choice. It is not clear anymore imo that Leroux will be the third starter, it could be Chouly as a flanker, or Goujon other.
Scrum-half: I hope it's Parra, but it will surely be Tillous-Borde.
Fly-half: Nobody knows here. Personnally, I don't think Trinh-Duc will be making a comeback, I even see Michalak as more likely. There's a feud going on right now with Clermont on Lopez' management, and he might pay for it. I'd say Plisson will be starting.
Centres: Lots of choice here. Bastareaud will surely be on the bench, and the starters could be two of Mermoz, Fofana, Fickou, Lamerat or Dumoulin.
Wingers: Huget seems a certainty, and Nakaitaci is the front-runner for the other spot right now.
Fullback: Spedding is the preferred one.

Now my opinion:

Personnally, I was against PSA's appointment (was hoping for Galthié), but supported him for a long time, pretty much until last year's 6N, but now he has shown a degree of incompetence that is just unsustainable. Now losing by 20 points is considered a heroic performance...

I'm also losing my patience with Dusautoir. He's lacking the consistence of yore, and his leadership seems very ineffective for the kind of group that France has at the moment. It is also obvious for everyone that he lacks the minimum level of complementarity with Leroux - we have never seen a game in which they both played well, they seem to run into each other.

Now, by position.
The loosehead props, I'm pretty happy with Ben Arous and Debaty. I'm not a big fan of players that can only be "impact players", but Debaty has shown he can be a starting option too.
Hookers: Both solid but nothing Servat-esque. Still waiting for Tolofua, Orioli, etc but seems too late now for the WC.
Tighthead props: Totally against Atonio here. The guy can't stand 20 minutes of international play. I'm also a bit biased in Slimani's favour.
Locks: Maestri for sure, but Papé keeps showing that he can't be relied upon. I'd go for Flanquart to start and Taofifenua for the bench. They're both good lineout jumpers, which gives more freedom in choosing the backrow (in particular, we're not forced to choose Chouly).
Backrow: Goujon had good showings, and I'd try him alongside Picamoles and Dusautoir. He seems more the mobile (and passing) sort when compared to Picamoles. Probably Choul for the bench, as he's been in the setup for some time (I'd go for Lauret or Lapandry if there were more time).
Halfback: Big Parra fan here. Always have been, even during those dark "Machenaud is an international class player" bull**** days. Happy enough with TB on the bench.
Flyhalf: Plisson and Lopez, if only because there doesn't seem to be any other alternative. Don't really believe in TD's comeback (come at me Gaston)
Centres: I'm satisfied with Bastareaud as an impact player. I think it has work, as it has worked with Debaty and as it can't work with Atonio (cf above). For the starters, I think pretty much any pair out of the five above will do. I will depend on Lamerat's and Dumoulin's form after injury, and on whether Fofana can break a line between now and September. My only strong preference is Fickou>Mermoz.
Wingers: the ones mentioned above seem an inevitable choice (if I had been told a few years ago that Huget was going to be a sure starter...)
Fullback: will depend on form, I'm happy enough with any of the two. We'll also have to see Bonneval's form when back from injury, but I think that's a very long shot.
 
@The Man
No matter you deep you delve into it, we only have a handful of sure starters: Guirado (and he's only been starting since 2014), Maestri (soon-to-be-captain), Dusautoir and Huget.
We have enough talent up front to field different quality packs, just hoping that Saint-André doesn't overlook Picamoles and pairs Dusautoir with an offensive-minded flanker (Nyanga, Camara...biased here).
Our backline is an absolute mystery, after four years of trial-and-error we still have absolutely no clue as to our pair of halfbacks, praying that Parra and Trinh-Duc will be back in top form in due time, all the others have had a go, none has convinced. Plenty of quality in the midfield too, would like to see Fofana moved at outside center, Mermoz, Dumoulin or another inside (players who actually make passes). Fine with any back three, Dulin deserves another chance, he'd been our top man for the last 18 months before his injury.
 
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Who ever is picked for the WC is of liitle importance as far as the players are concerned its a fairly well know fact in the inner circles that the players are longer playing for PSA and his muppets, the motitivation is no longer there they are more than happy to be back with thier own clubs, they may consider to go it alone but as there are not enough real leaders anymore the situation does not look good and this could well be an early exit and hopefully start again from scratch after the WC.
A very prominate person in the TOP 14 made this statement this week,
"if a team had 50 points scored against them with a 20 point difference, in the SH they would be sacked the following day not made out to be a hero" please do not ask who it was there will be no answer!!!!!!!!!!
 
"if a team had 50 points scored against them with a 20 point difference, in the SH they would be sacked the following day not made out to be a hero" please do not ask who it was there will be no answer!!!!!!!!!!

Argentina must have got through a few coaches since joining the Rugby Championship!
 
I did think, I reasoned that if your mystery person had meant SANZAR, he/she would have said SANZAR, not southern hemisphere. What you're actually in need of is some punctuation other than god knows who many punctuation marks at the end of every other sentence!
 
I did think, I reasoned that if your mystery person had meant SANZAR, he/she would have said SANZAR, not southern hemisphere. What you're actually in need of is some punctuation other than god knows who many punctuation marks at the end of every other sentence!

my punctuation is fine, if you don't like it tough my friend, this is a free and open world get used to it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"who many punctuation marks" a case of the kettle calling the pot black n'est pas!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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