Have World Cups lost their appeal?

[Kiwiwomble]

I still love them but think they could be made better, more competitive qualifying for example, create a real build up, give these tier two teams more of a build up. The way it is the tier two teams really are just punching bags which isn't productive

 

[j'nuh]

I think the last World Cup suffered for so many frustrating near-misses for the NH. England near-missing the quarters. Wales and Scotland near-missing the semis and nearly putting out SA/Australia.

Ireland being found out by Argentina was quite fun admittedly. And the final was great.

 

[BRSTLDRGN]

What do you mean? I thought that he was an idol in Leinster

Still is in Bristol, him and Gus Pichot.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Shame about the final, but 1991 was the best. Lucky enough to go to the QF against France in Paris - still got the beret! Great big dust up and a Parisienne crowd turning on their team as only the French can. Music to the ears. And then the SF with the Hastings howler from right in front.

Leonard, Moore, Probyn, Ackford, Dooley, Skinner, Winterbottom and Iron Mike. Who needs backs?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Wow Stormer you're being a bit presumptuous aren't you? The host nation for RWC 2023 won't be announced until May 2017. Sure SA are favourites, but I think Ireland has a shot of hosting it and it's never been hosted there before. Italy also in with a shout. France, having hosted it so recently in 2007, maybe should be fourth choice.

More of a jest than anything really. That said I really really really do hope we manage to get it as I don't see us as hosting any more thereafter unless we see dramatic change for teh good in SA. My lad would also be 11 so a local RWC would be ideal.

 

[Tony Manx]

More of a jest than anything really. That said I really really really do hope we manage to get it as I don't see us as hosting any more thereafter unless we see dramatic change for teh good in SA. My lad would also be 11 so a local RWC would be ideal.

Is that because of political interference in SA rugby or the increase in tensions in SA as a whole?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Is that because of political interference in SA rugby or the increase in tensions in SA as a whole?

Both and more critically the weakening Rand and poor performing economy in general means WR will be (or rather won't be) looking at a smaller pie. I expect things should pick up a tad again after the elections.

A world cup should go a small ways to help though as we do love our sports over here.

 

[saulan]

Wow Stormer you're being a bit presumptuous aren't you? The host nation for RWC 2023 won't be announced until May 2017. Sure SA are favourites, but I think Ireland has a shot of hosting it and it's never been hosted there before. Italy also in with a shout. France, having hosted it so recently in 2007, maybe should be fourth choice.

I really think the only other nation (apart from South Africa) that stands a shot is Italy, because they haven't hosted it before (Ireland were joint hosts in 1991). It just seems odd to have three out of ten world cups in B&I Lions nations. It's a pity that Argentina didn't bid, I think they would have won it because of being a significant growing and strong power in rugby and because it would be the first American World Cup which may have instilled some more interest from the similar time zoned areas into the sport.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I really think the only other nation (apart from South Africa) that stands a shot is Italy, because they haven't hosted it before (Ireland were joint hosts in 1991). It just seems odd to have three out of ten world cups in the UK. It's a pity that Argentina didn't bid, I think they would have won it because of being a significant growing and strong power in rugby and because it would be the first American World Cup which may have instilled some more interest from the similar time zoned areas into the sport.

True, but I honestly can't see that they will have 3 NH RWC's in a row (by 2023). That's why I think SA has the best shot.

 

[saulan]

True, but I honestly can't see that they will have 3 NH RWC's in a row (by 2023). That's why I think SA has the best shot.

I agree, I don't think it will be a 4th European World Cup. I stuffed up my first line of my first post, edited it now to show the fact that I believe it will most likely go to SA.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

True, but I honestly can't see that they will have 3 NH RWC's in a row (by 2023). That's why I think SA has the best shot.

Money is one reason Europe is a guaranteed success, Japan is also closer to NZ and Aus than Europe they're all long haul flights but 2019 isn't a world cup for any of the tier 1 nations. Having it in Europe guarantees an integrated World Cup considering how easily travelled it is and the SA, Aus and NZ populations only compliment that. I'd argue that with rugby's current stature the only 'World' Cups we have from the perspective of attending fans are the European one's. Obviously that's a simple matter of geography and nothing else.

There's also the question of who 'they' are, as far as I'm aware the host of the RWC is decided by a vote between the Unions. Ireland would certainly have the advantage there, getting votes from the home unions and I'm sure that the match in Chicago later this year influences the NZRFU vote too! Rightly or wrongly, probably wrongly, I think the 2023 cup will be here, I hope so too as I think it'd be Ireland's first, last and only chance to host one of these things before the stature of the game outgrows our infrastructure.

After that we'll probably not see one in Europe for another 12 years, 2027, 2031 and 2035 will surely be shared between Argentina, North America and Australia. Considering at the last one of those I'll be twice my current age that's a conversation for another day though!!

Edit: Saulan, if Ireland were to get it it wouldn't really be in the UK, a few group stage games would be in Belfast but the business end of the tournament would be solely in Dublin. A Dublin world cup would be different but it'd have a bit of an Olympic vibe to it and certainly be a better place for it than London which was too big to achieve the rugby loving atmosphere like Paris had in 2007.

 

[ncurd]

True, but I honestly can't see that they will have 3 NH RWC's in a row (by 2023). That's why I think SA has the best shot.

Gonna have to say Japan is only a 'NH' world cup by geography not by what people refer to when they talk about NH rugby. The powers that be will probably not take that into consideration at all when determining 2023.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'm going to cover my ears, close my eyes, make "la-la-la-la" sounds at the top of my voice, not revisit this thread and simply believe its SA 2023..

 

[TRF_heineken]

Money is one reason Europe is a guaranteed success, Japan is also closer to NZ and Aus than Europe they're all long haul flights but 2019 isn't a world cup for any of the tier 1 nations. Having it in Europe guarantees an integrated World Cup considering how easily travelled it is and the SA, Aus and NZ populations only compliment that. I'd argue that with rugby's current stature the only 'World' Cups we have from the perspective of attending fans are the European one's. Obviously that's a simple matter of geography and nothing else.

There's also the question of who 'they' are, as far as I'm aware the host of the RWC is decided by a vote between the Unions. Ireland would certainly have the advantage there, getting votes from the home unions and I'm sure that the match in Chicago later this year influences the NZRFU vote too! Rightly or wrongly, probably wrongly, I think the 2023 cup will be here, I hope so too as I think it'd be Ireland's first, last and only chance to host one of these things before the stature of the game outgrows our infrastructure.

After that we'll probably not see one in Europe for another 12 years, 2027, 2031 and 2035 will surely be shared between Argentina, North America and Australia. Considering at the last one of those I'll be twice my current age that's a conversation for another day though!!

Edit: Saulan, if Ireland were to get it it wouldn't really be in the UK, a few group stage games would be in Belfast but the business end of the tournament would be solely in Dublin. A Dublin world cup would be different but it'd have a bit of an Olympic vibe to it and certainly be a better place for it than London which was too big to achieve the rugby loving atmosphere like Paris had in 2007.

I hear you, but SA have another advantage. We recently hosted the FIFA World Cup in 2010. Most of those stadiums are currently being used for Rugby matches. And some of the Rugby Stadiums were upgraded for that tournament, like Loftus Versfeld and Bloemfontein Stadium. When it comes to voting, I think it will be close, as SA will obviously get the support from the SANZAAR nations and hopefully nations like Fiji, Samoa and Tonga. Which come to think of it, might in the end be more nations than the home unions. But I have no idea how that voting goes and how many votes each nation or member has.

The other thing is SA's poor currency to the Pound, Euro and Dollar. We will definitely get a lot of tourists as usual and have sell out crowds, along with the rugby loving locals. I know I will start saving now if I knew we will host the WC in 2023.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Japan in 2019 will be interesting as its the first one outside of the tier one countries.

Whatever the event, it needs the buy in of the local population. That one result against SA was massive for Japan, that and the sheer ebullience of the Japanese people should see it OK. I wouldn't however take it to Italy for instance as it would be almost totally reliant on travelling fans.

I also think cross border tournaments, including last year's, lose a chunk of their identity. A purely Welsh one for instance would be fantastic - I'm sure ground capacity issues could be worked around.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I really think the only other nation (apart from South Africa) that stands a shot is Italy, because they haven't hosted it before (Ireland were joint hosts in 1991). It just seems odd to have three out of ten world cups in the UK. It's a pity that Argentina didn't bid, I think they would have won it because of being a significant growing and strong power in rugby and because it would be the first American World Cup which may have instilled some more interest from the similar time zoned areas into the sport.

Only Northern Ireland is part of the UK; The Republic of Ireland is an independent country. Despite Ireland in rugby playing as one nation. You'll have a lot of Irish folk on here jumping up and down at your comment.

I think Ireland would want to host the tournament on it's own and won't have felt it properly hosted a tournament back in 1991, where only a handful of games were played there. A RWC in one country is best imo.

FWIW my preference would be SA in 2023 and then Ireland in 2027; 2031 - USA?? If the game can carve out a niche. Still all English speaking countries and I'm sure Italy and Argentina will also be in with a shout.

 

[saulan]

I also think cross border tournaments, including last year's, lose a chunk of their identity. A purely Welsh one for instance would be fantastic - I'm sure ground capacity issues could be worked around.

It's a nice idea, but I think rugby has grown too large for the tournament to happen solely in a small nation population and size wise. Japan have near 130 million people and the interest in sport to keep the stadiums going after the World Cup (and are already doing so since the stadiums didn't need to get built). Wales on the other hand has a population of 3 million and it would really not be worth it to build the stadiums to then later take them down (as we saw in South Korea) or have large maintenance costs. There simply won't be enough demand to keep them viable. Even in South Africa we have a couple of big FIFA World Cup stadiums which people are trying to figure out what the best thing to do with is.

For that reason I don't think we will ever see a World Cup in a smaller nation like Wales, any of the pacific islands and Scotland being played only in the one nation. It would need to be some form of joint effort.

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Only Northern Ireland is part of the UK; The Republic of Ireland is an independent country. Despite Ireland in rugby playing as one nation. You'll have a lot of Irish folk on here jumping up and down at your comment.

Noted, I will change it to B&I Lions nations.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Personally I'd be very surprised to see a second World Cup in a row go to a non-traditional rugby nation, so I wouldn't consider Italy's bid too seriously.

There really is a fag paper between South Africa and Ireland, so I would probably give it to Ireland on the basis that Ireland have never hosted the tournament before (in their own right). I stand to be corrected, I may be wrong in what I think or plans may be in place to rectify things, but could there be a problem with a lack of stadium seating capacity? Obviously the Aviva and Croke Park have a decent (although not massive) capacity, the GAA stadia seem like they're split about 50/50 between seats and terracing, is this something that World Rugby would see as a problem? Out of interest, are there plans in place for significant expansions to the Aviva? It would seem like rather a retrograde step to hold the 2013 WC final in front of barely more than 50k people and certainly a bold move to hold it at Croke Park, not at the Aviva.

Re: South Africa, I don't think that the strength of the Rand is as much of a black mark as some might think. The previous World Cup was the most lucrative ever and I imagine that the next will be somewhere near as successful, so I imagine there being a view that it's a good time to accept a less financially successful WC as they did in New Zealand. At least South Africa is on the right longitude to maximise TV revenues (which contributes around 40% of revenue). Following a quick Google, the stadia available are certainly a big selling point for SA (and again would be some compensation for the weak Rand).

The more I think about this, the closer the decision is. No doubt it will be decided by politics and diplomacy. I could see this as being a trump card for Ireland, the IRFU tend to have a good few movers and shakers within World Rugby.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Personally I'd be very surprised to see a second World Cup in a row go to a non-traditional rugby nation, so I wouldn't consider Italy's bid too seriously.

There really is a fag paper between South Africa and Ireland, so I would probably give it to Ireland on the basis that Ireland have never hosted the tournament before (in their own right). I stand to be corrected, I may be wrong in what I think or plans may be in place to rectify things, but could there be a problem with a lack of stadium seating capacity? Obviously the Aviva and Croke Park have a decent (although not massive) capacity, the GAA stadia seem like they're split about 50/50 between seats and terracing, is this something that World Rugby would see as a problem? Out of interest, are there plans in place for significant expansions to the Aviva? It would seem like rather a retrograde step to hold the 2013 WC final in front of barely more than 50k people and certainly a bold move to hold it at Croke Park, not at the Aviva.

Re: South Africa, I don't think that the strength of the Rand is as much of a black mark as some might think. The previous World Cup was the most lucrative ever and I imagine that the next will be somewhere near as successful, so I imagine there being a view that it's a good time to accept a less financially successful WC as they did in New Zealand. At least South Africa is on the right longitude to maximise TV revenues (which contributes around 40% of revenue). Following a quick Google, the stadia available are certainly a big selling point for SA (and again would be some compensation for the weak Rand).

The more I think about this, the closer the decision is. No doubt it will be decided by politics and diplomacy. I could see this as being a trump card for Ireland, the IRFU tend to have a good few movers and shakers within World Rugby.

The bid involves the final and semis being played in Croke Park. It relies on a few GAA stadiums but not too many iirc, one of them was the planned 38,000 seater Casement park which is waiting for planning permission after a **** up by the sports minister in NI and the other being Pairc ui Chaoimh in Cork which is undergoing a €70 million rebuild at the moment for a 45,000 capacity with two seated stands and terraces behind the goal. The Aviva can't be expanded upon due to objections from local residents, I do believe the IRFU are trying to buy the housing in question but a few stubborn residents are holding strong but that's just hearsay.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Shame about the final, but 1991 was the best. Lucky enough to go to the QF against France in Paris - still got the beret! Great big dust up and a Parisienne crowd turning on their team as only the French can. Music to the ears. And then the SF with the Hastings howler from right in front.

Leonard, Moore, Probyn, Ackford, Dooley, Skinner, Winterbottom and Iron Mike. Who needs backs?

Maybe Utley should have put Deano in at 12! The Aussie pack were no pushover either and (ironically) scored the only try of the final against the much vaunted England pack.

As someone who remember this tournament (and 1995), what was your recollection of the level of hype / coverage? I remember the "Run The Ball" campaign in 1991 being big and lots of coverage. I seem to remember a lot of coverage in 1995 too, but maybe that's because I was a rugby mad teenager at the time and would have sought out everything out there.

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The bid involves the final and semis being played in Croke Park. It relies on a few GAA stadiums but not too many iirc, one of them was the planned 38,000 seater Casement park which is waiting for planning permission after a **** up by the sports minister in NI and the other being Pairc ui Chaoimh in Cork which is undergoing a €70 million rebuild at the moment for a 45,000 capacity with two seated stands and terraces behind the goal. The Aviva can't be expanded upon due to objections from local residents, I do believe the IRFU are trying to buy the housing in question but a few stubborn residents are holding strong but that's just hearsay.

Thanks. I did read that the final is planned for Croke Park after posting, but everything else is news to me.

Also, I found a newspaper article in which Dick Spring, who is involved in the bid said that bad in the middle of last year while the bidding process was ongoing, he reckoned to have 40% of the votes needed pledged to Ireland already, although it mentions that the number of votes is set to change (IIRC from 27 to 35 / 40).