A Political Thread

[McTallshort]

That's so untrue, they may have been defeated but what they did did not amount to nothing. Westminster would have left NI as it was if the only dissenting voice was the SDLP, history shows that Westminster does not givea **** about Ireland and will not take any action regarding it unless it absolutely has to, we sae it in the 1910's and 20's and again obviously the 1960's-1998. It then always goes the smae way, the Irish uprising has some success, Westminster realise they have to take action, send the British Army who neutralise the rebel force, they usually end up ****ing up and killing innocent people along the way be it the Lord Mayor of Cork, hurling fans at bloody sunday, peaceful protesters in the bogside massacre. They then get lambasted in the world media and take the action they should have taken any time in the decade(s) previously.

Violence was obviously not the best way to end the oppression in but when they were fighting without a voice in their own government and trying to get the attention of a government in London that just didn't care about them they had little choice, they got the attention they needed which allowed far better men like John Hume achieve great things. Addams and the IRA went too far many times and any action in the 90's in particular was needless and criminal but what happened in the 60's, 70's and early 80's was the fault of Stormont and Westminster for neglecting 700,000 people they were supposed to stand for.

OK it did amount to something.....the actions of Adams and PIRA probably prolonged the conflict by about 10 years. John Hume who was making ground was eventually bypassed by Adams and his mob, moderate Republicans and Loyalists were in the frozen out by Adams and that ranting proddy preachers gang when a government was eventually formed so instead of having forward thinkers from both sides you ended up with people who prolonged everyone's misery in charge.

Yeah great achievement that.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

OK it did amount to something.....the actions of Adams and PIRA probably prolonged the conflict by about 10 years. John Hume who was making ground was eventually bypassed by Adams and his mob, moderate Republicans and Loyalists were in the frozen out by Adams and that ranting proddy preachers gang when a government was eventually formed so instead of having forward thinkers from both sides you ended up with people who prolonged everyone's misery in charge.

Yeah great achievement that.

You're highly overestimating the effectiveness of the Anglo-Irish agreement and the conservative's breaking their penchant for pandering to the wants of the DUP. Blair and Aherne were two of the worst heads of state our countries ever had but they were the first in either country to show a real impetus for ending the Troubles something that neither Bruton and Reynolds nor Thatcher and Major ever did. Without the heads of state really wanting it to end there was sweet fa that Hume and co. could have done.

 

[McTallshort]

You're highly overestimating the effectiveness of the Anglo-Irish agreement and the conservative's breaking their penchant for pandering to the wants of the DUP. Blair and Aherne were two of the worst heads of state our countries ever had but they were the first in either country to show a real impetus for ending the Troubles something that neither Bruton and Reynolds nor Thatcher and Major ever did. Without the heads of state really wanting it to end there was sweet fa that Hume and co. could have done.

Your wrong, John Major wasn't the best remembered prime minister but ask any of Clinton's advisers who did most for peace in NI him or Blair and they will say Major everytime.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

But that doesn't change that he's viewed here as a terrorist - both by the uninformed and the informed - and with a fair degree of reason. Either we accept terrorism simply as acts of terror against us - in which case he's the wrong side of the divide - or we accept terrorism as terrorism, in which case he's a terrorist.

I agree. The problem is that on one hand you have a lot of english pointing fingers at people like Gerry Adams while at the same time IGCSE history books portraited people like Francis Drake as a national hero. You cannot have it both ways.

 

[ncurd]

I agree. The problem is that on one hand you have a lot of english pointing fingers at people like Gerry Adams while at the same time IGCSE history books portraited people like Francis Drake as a national hero. You cannot have it both ways.

I don't think I studied any history books where Drake was celebrated as a hero. We're pretty honest about our arse holes.

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Adams on the other hand was responsible for the state of fear that led to two seperate bomb threats on my school and another night where our street got evacuated.

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But your right we should more worry about state sponsored piracy from over 400 years agom

 

[Gavin]

But your right we should more worry about state sponsored piracy from over 400 years agom

And what the British did in Northern Ireland / Ireland will not be seen as another form of state sponsored piracy in 400 years time?

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I don't think I studied any history books where Drake was celebrated as a hero. We're pretty honest about our arse holes.

So you erect statues, memorials in westminster abbey and knight any arsehole?


Sir Francis Drake was one of the great explorers of the Elizabethan age. Drake, along with several other explorers, enabled England to begin the colonisation process that led to the British Empire becoming so large.

Source: http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/francisdrake.htm#.V3wwivl96M8

It even implies the colonisation process was a good thing. Again, you cannot have it both ways.

But your right we should more worry about state sponsored piracy from over 400 years agom

Sure, you get to dictate what part of history we can use and what part is deemed to old for us to use against you. My bad.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Your wrong, John Major wasn't the best remembered prime minister but ask any of Clinton's advisers who did most for peace in NI him or Blair and they will say Major everytime.

Blair was the head of government that managed to get a second IRA ceasefire, after the one Major got which he was completely satisfied with leading to a few empty meetings with parties in NI, and the Good Friday Agreement. Under Major the realisation came about within the IRA that they had to make a deal but the man didn't know how to end the troubles simply because a conservative government couldn't be the government to give into republican demands in NI.

I'm not condoning any PIRA action between ceasefires here, the '94 ceasefire is when violence in the north should have ended forever and there was absolutely no need for the Docklands, Manchester etc... Bombings because an agreement was going to be made just not under the conservative government which was quite clearly on it's way out.

The talk of the troubles does bring me to the element of Brexit which has a personal interest to me which is where they stick the border. I can't see it being anywhere but the border between the north and South over here as the DUP will not accept having a border between themselves and the mainland, them lobbying for a leave vote will certainly help them here too and once a border control station is planted in South Armagh trouble will ensue. Either that or Britain and Ireland continue their current agreement but with immigration being a primary reason for this decision I can't see Britain, or the EU for that matter, being happy to continue the ease of access citezens of both nations have to one another continuing.

 

[McTallshort]

I agree. The problem is that on one hand you have a lot of english pointing fingers at people like Gerry Adams while at the same time IGCSE history books portraited people like Francis Drake as a national hero. You cannot have it both ways.

Sir Francis Drake saved England from invasion from an aggressive super power who wanted to impose it's religious beliefs on us.

Even on a good day Gerry Adams doesn't come anywhere near that.

 

[ncurd]

So you erect statues, memorials in westminster abbey and knight any arsehole?


Sir Francis Drake was one of the great explorers of the Elizabethan age. Drake, along with several other explorers, enabled England to begin the colonisation process that led to the British Empire becoming so large.

Source: http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/francisdrake.htm#.V3wwivl96M8

It even implies the colonisation process was a good thing. Again, you cannot have it both ways.


Sure, you get to dictate what part of history we can use and what part is deemed to old for us to use against you. My bad.

I don't hold Germans today responsible for the holocaust unless they are some of the few living that were involved......get some bloody perspective.

But it's okay you cherry picked one paragraph (see you missed the bit about being a pirate) from a defunct site that isn't anything run by the government, department of education or exams boards so isn't reflective of our education system at all. However we should believe you that is what is taught over my 16 years in the British education system.

What Tallshort said about the statues and the knighthood was again given over 400 years ago.

We also have a statue of Oliver Cromwell outside paeliment and he was a tosser when it came to being in charge.

 

[Bee]

You also have statues of Robert Scott, who preferred commiting suicide rather than accepting defeat and the fact that he was not prepared enough to succeed in his task ;-)

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

You also have statues of Robert Scott, who preferred commiting suicide rather than accepting defeat and the fact that he was not prepared enough to succeed in his task ;-)

No he didn't.

Your thinkin of Oates and he did it for the rest of the team.

Scott stayed with his team till the end.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Sir Francis Drake saved England from invasion from an aggressive super power who wanted to impose it's religious beliefs on us.

Even on a good day Gerry Adams doesn't come anywhere near that.

Replace England with Ireland and aggressive with oppressive in that statement and there's little difference.

Last thing I'll say about him and I doubt you'll agree with me but considering this all started because of your opinion of Adams I'll give mine. I don't think Adams is a good man, he has too many innocent lives on his conscience to be considered one, at the same time I don't think he's a bad man because standards we hold people with today can't be imposed on history. Adams grew up in Belfast, he grew up as a catholic and in the working class in the 50's and early 60's and this meant he was very much a second class citizen, for the first 10 years of his life he'd have heard stories of B Specials kicking Catholics out of their homes and the "peacekeeping" British army doing nothing about it and in the 60's he'd have witnessed local councils kick catholic tenants out of their homes an allowing Catholic areas become rundown forcing the few who were successful enough to own their own houses, usually teachers, to sell at a fraction of it's original value this allowing Protestants to by cheap housing. Had he tried to live a normal life and get a job in NI he might have become a teacher, get into a catholic school where he'd know his most successful students would be forced to emigrate, likely to England where they'd face discrimination in another way, otherwise he'd only get a job that a Protestant didn't want and would likely be working for and abused by the demographic that kept his people down, that or emigration were the choices he had had he chosen a normal life instead he chose to fight. Knowing he didn't have the numbers, funds, technology etc... to take on the might of the British Army he knew he had to fight dirty. It was something that had to be done and whoever did it was going to go down in history as a controversial figure an be responsible for a lot of lives that were cut short at the same time his actions were ultimately for the good of Northern Ireland. It was taken too far and that can't be forgiven, he was the bad guy that was needed to achieve peace at large like we see now in the North, his flaw was and still is his primary goal being to get British presence off the island of Ireland but considering that as far as he could see, as well as many people on this island myself included, Britain have no rightful claim to those six counties it can be understood. I empathise with the English view of him and can understand that you feel the actions of the IRA over there dragged you into something that wasn't your problem, the way I see that though is it was a reaction to the failings of the countless governments in Westminster who neglected the north expecting nothing bad to happen and the blame should fall firmly on them.

All in all it could have all been avoided had David Lloyd George not made one of the biggest political **** ups affecting Ireland by introducing partition in '22.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I'm the cherry picker? Hilarious.

I don't hold Germans today responsible for the holocaust unless they are some of the few living that were involved......get some bloody perspective.

Tiny difference thou: while walking through Berlin, Dusseldorf, Hamburg, Munich, COlogne, Bremen, Hanover and Frankfurt, i cannot remember a single statue celebrating the holocaust nor its architects.
I do recall a pretty big statue of a well known and knighted slave trader in Devon.

Replace England with Ireland and aggressive with oppressive in that statement and there's little difference.

Exactly.

 

[ncurd]

I'm the cherry picker? Hilarious.

You used a ****ty source and picked out the one bit that agreed with your statement.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

You used a ****ty source and picked out the one bit that agreed with your statement.

This.

I mean I wonder what Cruz Del Sur thinks of the statue of Roca in BA?

 

[ncurd]

Anyway onto actual news and politics that are relevant.

Chilcot pretty damning but nothing really revealed in what we didn't know already. Essentially the government fixated on proving themselves right rather than actually taking a measured approach and question the evidence properly.

Our planning was also **** poor.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

This.

I mean I wonder what Cruz Del Sur thinks of the statue of Roca in BA?

It's a disgrace. Just as having his face on a bill.
At least i am consistent.

 

[j'nuh]

Anyway onto actual news and politics that are relevant.

Chilcot pretty damning but nothing really revealed in what we didn't know already. Essentially the government fixated on proving themselves right rather than actually taking a measured approach and question the evidence properly.

Our planning was also **** poor.

It's a shame Charles Kennedy isn't alive to witness the vindication of the position he took, although he probably already knew that it was the right position.

Scratch that, it's a shame he isn't alive to lead the LDs.

 

[ncurd]

It's a shame Charles Kennedy isn't alive to witness the vindication of the position he took, although he probably already knew that it was the right position.

Scratch that, it's a shame he isn't alive to lead the LDs.

It's crying shame I disagreed with him at the time still partially do (although had I known how **** poor our planning was and we were warned about it I'd have probably of agreed) but I use to agree with him on everything else. Still can't belive we ditched him as leader due to drinking issues.

Farron's alright but I think we're a long way off from getting another of his calibre and stature.