The "South African Quota" catch-all thread

[George Ford]

I am a rugby blooded South African who from a young age have been quivering for excitement to showcase my skills on the field and also raise 3 eyebrows when I see a lighty side-step and jerk (which would probably look like a jol to some) his defenders 1-on-1 all the way to the try-line. I take note & make mention of a David-vs-Goliath moment where the shorty tumbles down the big man, because you cannot run without your legs. I make sure my howl is heard when I see a huge tackle hit the carrier backwards and ditto for Lomu-like ram on a defender. All these moments I have come to learn and love the game of rugby as witnessed in my country of South Africa.

These are the things you often see happening as a junior, but less on senior level where the sport is tailored to be more structured and professional, but by this time you have now also developed a love for your union/region/province you stem from and represented as the game is now part of your DNA and your focus is now pursuing & contributing to the game where it is recognized and throughout all these years you experience a kind of enigma where you almost literally feel the whole country coming to a standstill when the Springboks are playing.

This is exactly the reason rugby is STILL labelled as the national sport, in spite of the majority of citizens enjoying football more as a past time, like most other countries. Because this sport actually unites the country as whole like nothing else. This despite this current government's agenda to again separate and segregate it's citizens with its policies & ideals. The quota system & transformation being one of them. Why SHOULD this system be implemented if this same kind of ideologies is what put the country in isolation previously? I think the current state of affairs in the country can almost directly be attributable to what has has transpired in the Boks season so far and is a clear-cut sign that all of it has only had a negative impact on the sport: players' exodus; sponsors withdrawal; and now our Boks are officially slipping down the rankings as a result of their performance. The players themselves do not feel that wealth in support & goodwill as they are carrying more weight than any other era of previous players before them to wear the Bok jersey.

There are still a lot that can be said, but what I have briefly touched on should already be enough to motivate that a racially based system has no place in the true spirit of competitive & professional sport. Why should I raise my kid in an environment where politics is enforced on the sport which I love. I would rather migrate to country where the sport itself is nurtured and not the agendas of its government.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Now clearly there has been an increase within a period of 6 months, which was due to the statements made by the Sports Minister. If my math is correct, then that is 39 new players that formed part of the 2016 Super Rugby Squads. That is an entire team!!!

That is very interesting, thanks, although I'd point out that 14 of your 39 new players are for the Kings (who weren't playing in 2015 as you point out) so should be counted differently. But even 25 more players in a year is a big difference. It makes me wonder why the Sports Ministers' report on the progress of "transformation" in rugby was presumably negative enough to say you can't bid for international tournaments.

Are most of these 25 new players that are reaching an age where making an SR squad might be appropriate (e.g. 20-23 years?). If so, they could be there on merit. If a lot of them are older, journeymen players who have been doing the rounds in the Currie Cup but haven't previously been considered good enough for SR, then I think that could be an indication of coaches having their hands forced to field more players.

EDIT: Also, I think I am counting 6 non-white players out of the 23 for this weekends Test again? If so its below the quota/target for the second fixture running.

 

[Brigantine]

This whole political interference topic only seems to be getting louder since TRC round 6.

But here's a different idea:

The Maori All Blacks certainly seem to have a niche. It will be interesting to see how much fanfare the USA - Maori All Blacks game can generate, it seems like a good match-up for marketing.
The Americas Rugby Championship includes an 'A' side from Argentina.
The Barbarians are a regular feature in AI's

Could there be value (marketing, political, whatever) in a Maori All Blacks equivalent in South Africa? (Or is there something like this already?)

- Would it bridge the gap between Namibia/Kenya/Zimbabwe and South Africa in the Africa Cup? If it was a permanent team in that competition, would it help grow the rugby following further into Africa?
- Could it be a plausible SH rival for Samoa/Tonga/Maori All Blacks or the winner of the Americas Rugby Championship?
- Is it something that would get a lot of attention in SA and generate new stars and inspiration/appeal across a wider section of SA?

I can see pitfalls too
- It might be perceived in a completely different way in SA to NZ. I imagine it would have to definitely be seen as a springboard, not a divergent path. (less of an issue for an age-grade team?)
- Whatever criteria are used could become contentious. It's possibly a blessing with the status quo that disagreements over which players count in what category don't need to be explicitly resolved.


People who actually know stuff about South Africa:

Am I being crazy and this would never fly? (Or is there already a team and I've never heard about it)
Would you personally have any problems with this? (i.e. does this even avoid the problems with quotas in the first place?)
Do you think it would have a good/bad effect on the Springboks?
Can you imagine an opponent for them where you wouldn't want to miss the game? (would they sell any tickets / generate any TV revenue?)
Are there players who would want to sign up to this team?
Could they find enough funding/sponsorship?


P.S.
In NZ, the Maori All Blacks were formed way back in 1910. It seems having 1 distant ancestor who belonged to a tribe is sufficient to make you eligible. "All contracted players are able to nominate themselves as eligible for the Maori All Blacks and, in the event a player is considered for selection, the team’s kaumatua (cultural advisor) will trace the player’s whakapapa (genealogy) to confirm his heritage and eligibility". But the SA situation isn't really similar to NZ - Maori are a minority, and all tribes share one language, albeit with differences.

 

[TRF_heineken]

This whole political interference topic only seems to be getting louder since TRC round 6.

But here's a different idea:

The Maori All Blacks certainly seem to have a niche. It will be interesting to see how much fanfare the USA - Maori All Blacks game can generate, it seems like a good match-up for marketing.
The Americas Rugby Championship includes an 'A' side from Argentina.
The Barbarians are a regular feature in AI's

Could there be value (marketing, political, whatever) in a Maori All Blacks equivalent in South Africa? (Or is there something like this already?)

- Would it bridge the gap between Namibia/Kenya/Zimbabwe and South Africa in the Africa Cup? If it was a permanent team in that competition, would it help grow the rugby following further into Africa?
- Could it be a plausible SH rival for Samoa/Tonga/Maori All Blacks or the winner of the Americas Rugby Championship?
- Is it something that would get a lot of attention in SA and generate new stars and inspiration/appeal across a wider section of SA?

I can see pitfalls too
- It might be perceived in a completely different way in SA to NZ. I imagine it would have to definitely be seen as a springboard, not a divergent path. (less of an issue for an age-grade team?)
- Whatever criteria are used could become contentious. It's possibly a blessing with the status quo that disagreements over which players count in what category don't need to be explicitly resolved.


People who actually know stuff about South Africa:

Am I being crazy and this would never fly? (Or is there already a team and I've never heard about it)
Would you personally have any problems with this? (i.e. does this even avoid the problems with quotas in the first place?)
Do you think it would have a good/bad effect on the Springboks?
Can you imagine an opponent for them where you wouldn't want to miss the game? (would they sell any tickets / generate any TV revenue?)
Are there players who would want to sign up to this team?
Could they find enough funding/sponsorship?


P.S.
In NZ, the Maori All Blacks were formed way back in 1910. It seems having 1 distant ancestor who belonged to a tribe is sufficient to make you eligible. "All contracted players are able to nominate themselves as eligible for the Maori All Blacks and, in the event a player is considered for selection, the team’s kaumatua (cultural advisor) will trace the player’s whakapapa (genealogy) to confirm his heritage and eligibility". But the SA situation isn't really similar to NZ - Maori are a minority, and all tribes share one language, albeit with differences.

I think that Idea will never realise in SA.

first we have to differentiate between coloured players and ethnic black players, as there is a massive difference. And then, even in between the ethnic black players you have different tribes/cultures such as Zulu, Xhosa, Venda, Tswana, Ndebele, Sesotho, Seswati and so on, which is different from the Maori. These cultures have their own language, and plenty of words that is vastly different from the other cultures. So if we ever have such a team, what language will they speak? English? Afrikaans? I doubt that the players would like that.

The other problem is that the ethnic black players in the proffessional setup in SA only occupy certain positions, so we won't be able to field a 23-man team using only ethnic black players. We would have one lock, one fly half and a backline full of wingers apart from Mapoe and Mnisi.

But the other problem is that I don't think the top players would want to play for this team. It would put a target on their back in that they see themselves as a quota player, and therefore might not always be selected on merit for the Boks.

 

[Brigantine]

the ethnic black players in the proffessional setup in SA only occupy certain positions, so we won't be able to field a 23-man team using only ethnic black players. We would have one lock, one fly half and a backline full of wingers apart from Mapoe and Mnisi.

Hmm... Is that just inherent, or is that something that kind of got nudged into being that way by the politics? An accidental feedback loop divvying up positions for aspiring pro players to choose.
IF a team started out at say U16 level (not sure who they'd vs), would you still only find half the positions?

Is there a particular culture that's more significant or over-represented in rugby relative to the others? I.e. could you form a team around one distinct community. You would need to tap into a sense of group pride somehow to get a team like this to work. And yeah, a catch-all group of 'quota players' would be a bad start.

Perhaps it quite a meta-level difference in the requirements in each country. In NZ, there was something that needed to be built up. In SA, there's just a vague negative space that needs to be broken down.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Hmm... Is that just inherent, or is that something that kind of got nudged into being that way by the politics? An accidental feedback loop divvying up positions for aspiring pro players to choose.
IF a team started out at say U16 level (not sure who they'd vs), would you still only find half the positions?

Is there a particular culture that's more significant or over-represented in rugby relative to the others? I.e. could you form a team around one distinct community. You would need to tap into a sense of group pride somehow to get a team like this to work. And yeah, a catch-all group of 'quota players' would be a bad start.

Perhaps it quite a meta-level difference in the requirements in each country. In NZ, there was something that needed to be built up. In SA, there's just a vague negative space that needs to be broken down.

Well. From what I've seen personally, is that the ethnic black kids who take up rugby, are usually the ones who are poor at soccer, as in they are the bigger, chunkier kids, or the ones who don't have the skills with their feet. So usually the guys taking up rugby are the ones we see playing prop, hooker and wing. The wings are very fast, but usually they don't have the skills to be good football players. The tall ones are going into basketball, which is one of the fastest growing sports in South Africa.

If we look at the last craven week, and the teams who did well, with ethnic black players in their team, then it's clear that this trend is ongoing. Those teams had good wingers and props or hookers who were ethnic black.

Politics does play a role here in some way, but that's because of the majority of ethnic black cultures preferring soccer above rugby or cricket. Our Soccer network just have more backing than any other sport and the money is significantly more in Soccer than in rugby. Soccer in the rural areas are also the first choice for every youngster taking up sports, and there are way more clubs and teams to play for than rugby.

 

[Sailor Pete]

Guys, you can bemoan into our quota dilemma as much as you like, but its not the reason we're in the trouble we're in.

I see the cause of our poor performance as such:
1. No continuity at coaching level.
2. We hang onto out of form and aging players for way too long.
3. We play our fit players to destruction.
4. We have no succession plan.
5. We have no game plan.
6. Our ball skills are shocking.
7. We kick when we should run.
8. We run when we should kick.
9. We allow the opposition too much room.
10. Our scrumhalves talk too much
11. We recycle the ball slower that a slow motion reply of a chess move
12. With the exception of the Lions our domestic sides are rubbish
13. I can't think of one current Springbok who'd make it into the current All Black side

I'll stop there before I break anything..

If I had to nail it though, I'd have to lay the blame squarely at the feet of our national & provincial coaching staff and administrators. The government are only pouring salt into an already gaping wound...

 

[eidde]

@Sailor Pete - aren't all of those issues as a result of political interference? The current coaching setup at the Springboks is vastly underqualified, but they can't replace any of them because they've all been put there by the government. Every single one of those problems you've mentioned could be improved upon with the introduction of a decent coach with access to a proper support staff.

So the quota system to me is just a part of a wider system of political interference that is killing the Boks, and the game as a whole in SA.

 

[Sailor Pete]

@Sailor Pete - aren't all of those issues as a result of political interference?

To a certain degree, yes.

 

[TRF_heineken]

To a certain degree, yes.

Not to a certain degree... Most definitely.

And you aren't the first person to mention those issues either, Nick Mallet has been saying that for years. But that is also due to BEE/Political Interference at the administrators side. And we have had this issue since before Jake White was coach. And it has been one of the big fights the bigger unions has had with SARU and Oregon Hoskins.

 

[Sailor Pete]

Make no mistake - I'm not here to defend quotas, or the government’s interference in sport. I rate them (quotas and government interference) as low as BEE, which I consider to be a form of ethnic cleansing. I mean where else in the world does a government elected by the majority have policies in place to protect that majority from minority groups..? One only has to look at black dominated South African football, where there are no quotas (that favour whites, coloureds and Indians) to realize how duplicitous and hypocritical quotas in other sports are.

No, what I’m saying about Springbok rugby can be summed up by Lood de Jager being yellow carded, and Habana kicking the ball straight out, when he could (could) have taken the Boks much closer to the AB’s try line. These were really stupid moments in a game when the opposing team turned these stupid moments into points. This by the by is not the first time Habana has cost us. His yellow card in the semi final against the AB’s at the WC cost us that game.

So it's in this regard, that my issue with the Springboks has less to do with quotas than it has to do with brain-fade…

 

[TheOvalBall]

Guys, you can bemoan into our quota dilemma as much as you like, but its not the reason we're in the trouble we're in.

I see the cause of our poor performance as such:
1. No continuity at coaching level.
2. We hang onto out of form and aging players for way too long.
3. We play our fit players to destruction.
4. We have no succession plan.
5. We have no game plan.
6. Our ball skills are shocking.
7. We kick when we should run.
8. We run when we should kick.
9. We allow the opposition too much room.
10. Our scrumhalves talk too much
11. We recycle the ball slower that a slow motion reply of a chess move
12. With the exception of the Lions our domestic sides are rubbish
13. I can't think of one current Springbok who'd make it into the current All Black side

I'll stop there before I break anything..

If I had to nail it though, I'd have to lay the blame squarely at the feet of our national & provincial coaching staff and administrators. The government are only pouring salt into an already gaping wound...

The result of political interference has always been quotas.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Make no mistake - I'm not here to defend quotas, or the government’s interference in sport. I rate them (quotas and government interference) as low as BEE, which I consider to be a form of ethnic cleansing. I mean where else in the world does a government elected by the majority have policies in place to protect that majority from minority groups..? One only has to look at black dominated South African football, where there are no quotas (that favour whites, coloureds and Indians) to realize how duplicitous and hypocritical quotas in other sports are.

No, what I’m saying about Springbok rugby can be summed up by Lood de Jager being yellow carded, and Habana kicking the ball straight out, when he could (could) have taken the Boks much closer to the AB’s try line. These were really stupid moments in a game when the opposing team turned these stupid moments into points. This by the by is not the first time Habana has cost us. His yellow card in the semi final against the AB’s at the WC cost us that game.

So it's in this regard, that my issue with the Springboks has less to do with quotas than it has to do with brain-fade…

Those 2 incidents aren't our problem. Lood did go stupidly into that ruck, yes, but it was in the 72nd minute when NZ already had 40+ points against us. It was a clear sign of frustration from Lood.

As for Habana's Kick, that same move has brought us many tries in the past, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. I'm not going to look at blaming Habana for our loss.

My problem is that Our Backline is absolutely useless on Defence and on Attack. Juan De Jongh was a pedestrian in the midfield, and was the direct cause for 3 of the AB's tries. And the one time, he was out of position, he intercepted the ball, and instead of keeping the ball, and try to punish the AB's, he kicked it downfield!! What is Mzwandile Stick doing with that Backline?? What training do they do? I bet you it's under 9 pass drills and "Bakkie val" drills.

What is the biggest concern is the amount of mediocrity we have to deal with. Allistair Coetzee is a mediocre coach. Matthew Proudfoot is a Mediocre Forwards Coach. Mzwandile Stick is a less than mediocre backline coach. Adriaan Strauss is a less than mediocre captain... This list can go on and on.

It's clear that we don't strive for perfection anymore. You can have quality players, which I know we have in this Bok team. But without the proper guidance and plan and coaching, you are as useless as Municipality Plumber...

 

[Sailor Pete]

It's clear that we don't strive for perfection anymore. You can have quality players, which I know we have in this Bok team. But without the proper guidance and plan and coaching, you are as useless as Municipality Plumber...

Yup, can't argue with that..

 

[mdaclarke]

As an Non South African but lover of rugby, the Quota system makes me angry. I don't see why the IRB allow it. The springboks are one of world rugby's best assets and in the long run, they are the only country that can compete with the All Blacks. Players and Coaches should be picked on merit and merit alone. I actually think that more damage is done by having incompetent coaches than having inferior players.

I understand the desire to transform rugby but it is being done the wrong way. Invest in the schools, make rugby the main sport in all schools, pick out the talent at school level and support and nurture them. Then in 10 years transformation will happen. There is no point forcing the issue, it makes the springboks and the quota players/coaches a laughing stock.

The springboks should be the biggest draw in the world rugby, the biggest prize, the biggest money spinner. If they die. World rugby loses so so much.

Don't let the ANC do to South African Rugby, what Mugabe did to Zimbabwean cricket.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

This topic resurfaced in various threads in June and is likely to reappear again during the Rugby Championship. Rather than reply in those threads to each instance I thought I'd simply update my post from last year and personally just focus on the rugby in these other threads. As ever, no offence is intended and I can sympathise why this is a sensitive topic.

I don't think the Lions met this mythical "quota" once this season. Instead of 7 out of 23 I counted 4 non-whites for them in the final. So I'd argue the same applies in 2017 as last year in my first post, that:

- quotas are a myth peddled by a media looking for a readership. They are a deliberate misinterpretation of the policy because it is standard media practice to foster grievance in order to enhance readership numbers.
- players are selected on merit and there are easily 7 non-white South African players of sufficient quality to put on the Boks jersey.
- the SARU are being strongly encouraged to foster growth of the game outside the traditional strongholds and by doing so, naturally come closer to the "targets" outlined.
- that if the SARU was seen to be failing to become more inclusive then the government would not support bids to host the RWC by withholding tax payer funds.
- that there are no sanctions for a team if they have less than 7 non-white players in their squad.
- that South African rugby will benefit in the medium to long term by extending its reach to other communities in terms of playerbase and fanbase.
- that the SARU was given around 20 years to improve this situation themselves post-apartheid but, for whatever reasons, utterly failed to make progress in this area.
- that it is reasonable for a government in such a situation after two decades to then take a more hands on approach and issue targets to a union.
- that just because a government is completely rotten, it doesn't mean that everything done by that government is wrong.

To refresh quota/target watchers of any persuasion my understanding is that despite skin pigmentation de Allende is classified as white and Bosch is classified as non-white.

Will each 23 for South Africa contain 7 or more non-white players in the Rugby Championship? If you can't say for certain, yes, then you cannot believe quotas are being implemented.

 

[BPM]

This topic resurfaced in various threads in June and is likely to reappear again during the Rugby Championship. Rather than reply in those threads to each instance I thought I'd simply update my post from last year and personally just focus on the rugby in these other threads. As ever, no offence is intended and I can sympathise why this is a sensitive topic.

I don't think the Lions met this mythical "quota" once this season. Instead of 7 out of 23 I counted 4 non-whites for them in the final. So I'd argue the same applies in 2017 as last year in my first post, that:

- quotas are a myth peddled by a media looking for a readership. They are a deliberate misinterpretation of the policy because it is standard media practice to foster grievance in order to enhance readership numbers.
- players are selected on merit and there are easily 7 non-white South African players of sufficient quality to put on the Boks jersey.
- the SARU are being strongly encouraged to foster growth of the game outside the traditional strongholds and by doing so, naturally come closer to the "targets" outlined.
- that if the SARU was seen to be failing to become more inclusive then the government would not support bids to host the RWC by withholding tax payer funds.
- that there are no sanctions for a team if they have less than 7 non-white players in their squad.
- that South African rugby will benefit in the medium to long term by extending its reach to other communities in terms of playerbase and fanbase.
- that the SARU was given around 20 years to improve this situation themselves post-apartheid but, for whatever reasons, utterly failed to make progress in this area.
- that it is reasonable for a government in such a situation after two decades to then take a more hands on approach and issue targets to a union.
- that just because a government is completely rotten, it doesn't mean that everything done by that government is wrong.

To refresh quota/target watchers of any persuasion my understanding is that despite skin pigmentation de Allende is classified as white and Bosch is classified as non-white.

Will each 23 for South Africa contain 7 or more non-white players in the Rugby Championship? If you can't say for certain, yes, then you cannot believe quotas are being implemented.

For the most part I agree with you and after watching the South African team in the U20 World Cup, I think this will become less of an issue as time passes as most of the better players were POC.

Where it becomes contentious is where odd selection choices are made - i.e. Mohoje over Smith or Rhule over Combrinck that really have no obvious explanation other than a desire to meet a target on POC representation.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

For the most part I agree with you and after watching the South African team in the U20 World Cup, I think this will become less of an issue as time passes as most of the better players were POC.

Where it becomes contentious is where odd selection choices are made - i.e. Mohoje over Smith or Rhule over Combrinck that really have no obvious explanation other than a desire to meet a target on POC representation.

Paul O'Connell?

 

[Brigantine]

Paul O'Connell?

I think POC = people of colour.

Brits using American jargon to discuss South African rugby... Coloured means something different in South Africa AIUI.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I think POC = people of colour.

Brits using American jargon to discuss South African rugby... Coloured means something different in South Africa AIUI.

haha tigs was being obtuse, and that's why we love him (or w/e pronoun tigs prefers)

but yeah, it's odd seeing POC used when south africa differentiates politically between different POC subgroups

 

[TRF_heineken]

This topic resurfaced in various threads in June and is likely to reappear again during the Rugby Championship. Rather than reply in those threads to each instance I thought I'd simply update my post from last year and personally just focus on the rugby in these other threads. As ever, no offence is intended and I can sympathise why this is a sensitive topic.

I don't think the Lions met this mythical "quota" once this season. Instead of 7 out of 23 I counted 4 non-whites for them in the final. So I'd argue the same applies in 2017 as last year in my first post, that:

- quotas are a myth peddled by a media looking for a readership. They are a deliberate misinterpretation of the policy because it is standard media practice to foster grievance in order to enhance readership numbers.
- players are selected on merit and there are easily 7 non-white South African players of sufficient quality to put on the Boks jersey.
- the SARU are being strongly encouraged to foster growth of the game outside the traditional strongholds and by doing so, naturally come closer to the "targets" outlined.
- that if the SARU was seen to be failing to become more inclusive then the government would not support bids to host the RWC by withholding tax payer funds.
- that there are no sanctions for a team if they have less than 7 non-white players in their squad.
- that South African rugby will benefit in the medium to long term by extending its reach to other communities in terms of playerbase and fanbase.
- that the SARU was given around 20 years to improve this situation themselves post-apartheid but, for whatever reasons, utterly failed to make progress in this area.
- that it is reasonable for a government in such a situation after two decades to then take a more hands on approach and issue targets to a union.
- that just because a government is completely rotten, it doesn't mean that everything done by that government is wrong.

To refresh quota/target watchers of any persuasion my understanding is that despite skin pigmentation de Allende is classified as white and Bosch is classified as non-white.

Will each 23 for South Africa contain 7 or more non-white players in the Rugby Championship? If you can't say for certain, yes, then you cannot believe quotas are being implemented.

Man, have you been reading the local news reports recently? Do you even know what is currently happening in SA??

Are you aware that we have a new Sports Minister?

Are you aware that Afriforum has approached the IOC, the UN and other Sporting Bodies regarding the quota system?
They even have an online petition where people can sign to add their name to the list.

The only reason why this issue isn't making so much noise in our political sphere, is because of the bigger fights going on and the whole Gupta and our President issues, and state capture.

If you have been reading local papers, you would also notice, that the ANC is driving the idea of Radical Transformation. Now part of this plan will be a direct affect on the Sports codes and employment.

Our new sports minister has been backing SARU to host the 2023 World Cup, and due to recent remarks by members of parliament, the issue of the quota system has been put on the backburner. But we all know that at some stage, this will become an issue, unless there is an official statement from government to abolish these plans.

I think if you look at the latest Springbok Squad, you will find that the Squad consists of the minimum requirements prescribed. Even in regards with traditional African cultured players.

The big question you need to look is why are teams only selecting the minimum amount prescribed, and why are they hardly ever having fielding teams with more than what is prescribed???

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

The ANC lives in the space between calling for "radical transformation", "land grabs" etc even going as far as calling for genocide to appease that part of their electorate and pulling the "nothing official", "we were misinterpreted" cards. The actual 'action' is behind the scenes and of a scale as to pass general scrutiny. I can't see why it would be any different with government interference in sport (which is undeniable especially in sports with less investment). This is why the more radical have moved to the EFF. The thing that gets me is its not about inclusivity as apposed to being anti-Afrikaner. IE there has not been 1 single Afrikaans speaking white person selected for Bafana Bafana.

 

[mdaclarke]

The thing that is frustrating about the quotas is the fact they are undeniably illegal under the IOC and IRB sporting codes. If the IOC and world rugby had the balls they could stop it today. Just say to world rugby that if they tolerate quotas then rugby is out of the olympics and say to the ANC that if they have quotas they will get the same treatment as the Apartheid government received.

I see Michael Rhodes may soon be playing for England.

Mugabe damaging Zimbabwe cricket did nothing for the average black Zimbabwean, Zuma damaging South African Rugby will do nothing for the average black South African. It is all so sad. (although I personally don't feel that South African Rugby will be harmed that much if at all in the long run, i actually fear more for Australian and New Zealand Rugby as collateral damage)

 

[Icemn]

The main reason for the decline in SA rugby which most people seem to miss is Heineke(n) Meyer's tenure from 2012- 2015

In his tenure (regardless of results) he played a 1975 gameplan that prevented the boks form making any headway while the rest of the world moved on (this went on for +-3 years)

Him (HM) also only just focused on his current older (biltong) players because they knew his 1975 gameplan (i wonder why...) and thus he neglected bringing in new younger talent to mix in with the 'biltong' and build on an aging team...

HM then gets the boot becasue 1975 does not work in 2015, most of the biltong also departs and in steps poor Toetie (god that sounds wet) - just for the record, regardless of who stepped in they were setup for failure... not even Alex Ferguson or Jesus could have saved this bok team - that is why no-one really wanted this job....

Then there are issues like all the provinces play a different style of rugby, some play expansive, some play 'stampkar' and some kick and chase. When these mix of players get called into the bok team with its 'identity crisis' - some of the players from the expansive provincial teams are now being asked to play 'stampkar' those who play 'stampkar' are now asked to run etc.

That for me are the main reasons the boks are in decline and this is how I can see them bounce back

There is nothing we can do about the damage caused by HM and co, what they can do is decide on a style of rugby that is true to SA - get an identity

Are we going to stampkar - which is fine but then get players who stampkar - don't gooi poor Elton in there and expect him to shine

Also get the coaching staff correct for 'stampkar' - get a stampkar coach

Also align all the provinces to adopt 'stampkar' as their preferred style - just makes it easier at national level if everyone is on the same parr

on the quota comment....

As a non-white I've never been in favor of this 'quota-system' as I feel that you need to be selected based on Merritt regardless of colour

However, since non-whites have been at a disadvantage ('apparently') of not being selected previously they are being given an advantage of being selected in the national squad?? why, its not apartheid anymore so select based on merrit

my question is, when is this 'advantage' over? come on government its been +-24 years now so when is this **** over? who decides when 'non-whites' and 'whites' are on parr, do we vote? do other countries vote as they will be neutral... eish...

 

[GarethGriffiths]

The beginning of the PC-creep into Rugby?

Having worked and played sports alongside BAME people (Black And Minority Ethnic) all of them got jobs or played in teams because they were deemed good enough.

The colour of their epidermis was never an issue, it was about what qualities and talents they could bring to the table.

In fact, I would say that the white and privileged suits behind these plans are themselves very racist - they are essentially saying that we must make it easier for BAME people so we'll lower the standards/criteria. It is little more than outing them as 'Special Needs'which I find disgusting.

The best team should be picked because it is the best team - whether that team is all-white, all-BAME or all-Asian (or a mixture of all of these) is not relevant.

It is virtue-signalling and also it is mugging the game and its spectators off completely.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

The beginning of the PC-creep into Rugby?

Having worked and played sports alongside BAME people (Black And Minority Ethnic) all of them got jobs or played in teams because they were deemed good enough.

The colour of their epidermis was never an issue, it was about what qualities and talents they could bring to the table.

In fact, I would say that the white and privileged suits behind these plans are themselves very racist - they are essentially saying that we must make it easier for BAME people so we'll lower the standards/criteria. It is little more than outing them as 'Special Needs'which I find disgusting.

The best team should be picked because it is the best team - whether that team is all-white, all-BAME or all-Asian (or a mixture of all of these) is not relevant.

It is virtue-signalling and also it is mugging the game and its spectators off completely.

Man, have you been reading the local news reports recently? Do you even know what is currently happening in SA??

Are you aware that we have a new Sports Minister?

Are you aware that Afriforum has approached the IOC, the UN and other Sporting Bodies regarding the quota system?
They even have an online petition where people can sign to add their name to the list.

The only reason why this issue isn't making so much noise in our political sphere, is because of the bigger fights going on and the whole Gupta and our President issues, and state capture.

If you have been reading local papers, you would also notice, that the ANC is driving the idea of Radical Transformation. Now part of this plan will be a direct affect on the Sports codes and employment.

Our new sports minister has been backing SARU to host the 2023 World Cup, and due to recent remarks by members of parliament, the issue of the quota system has been put on the backburner. But we all know that at some stage, this will become an issue, unless there is an official statement from government to abolish these plans.

I think if you look at the latest Springbok Squad, you will find that the Squad consists of the minimum requirements prescribed. Even in regards with traditional African cultured players.

The big question you need to look is why are teams only selecting the minimum amount prescribed, and why are they hardly ever having fielding teams with more than what is prescribed???

Of course it is reasonable to be suspicious when there are 6, 7 or 8 non-white players in each Bok squad (the target being 7). But the Lions are routinely 5 or less. The SARU and government both categorically deny there is a quota system in place (quotes in first post of this thread).

With respect I'll take arithmetic and the word of officials in the know over local media reports. But like I say, in the political climate you are in I sympathise with sports fans. But let's not kid ourselves that every community in SA has their house in order except for ANC supporters. Recent coverage of the farmers stuffing a black man in a coffin an taunting him, or of the former head of the main opposition party making a remark about "not all of colonialism being bad" (grossly insensitive rather than inaccurate) show that the hurdles to black kids getting into sport may still remain, even if they aren't legally enforced like they were under apartheid.

I am less "optimistic" about the U20s, they looked very white to me (although I only saw highlights), plus Rhule and Beast are both qualified on residency so the current situation is even weaker than it appears in terms of rearing domestic talent from other demographics.

Finally, sounds like Mohoje has been cut from the Boks and released to the Currie Cup? I'm happy as I rate him as a ball carrier and want to see him in the Pro14; but if there was a quota system in place he'd never be cut. He is easily international calibre even if sound arguments can be made that others in that position deserve the nod.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Of course it is reasonable to be suspicious when there are 6, 7 or 8 non-white players in each Bok squad (the target being 7). But the Lions are routinely 5 or less. The SARU and government both categorically deny there is a quota system in place (quotes in first post of this thread).

With respect I'll take arithmetic and the word of officials in the know over local media reports. But like I say, in the political climate you are in I sympathise with sports fans. But let's not kid ourselves that every community in SA has their house in order except for ANC supporters. Recent coverage of the farmers stuffing a black man in a coffin an taunting him, or of the former head of the main opposition party making a remark about "not all of colonialism being bad" (grossly insensitive rather than inaccurate) show that the hurdles to black kids getting into sport may still remain, even if they aren't legally enforced like they were under apartheid.

I am less "optimistic" about the U20s, they looked very white to me (although I only saw highlights), plus Rhule and Beast are both qualified on residency so the current situation is even weaker than it appears in terms of rearing domestic talent from other demographics.

Finally, sounds like Mohoje has been cut from the Boks and released to the Currie Cup? I'm happy as I rate him as a ball carrier and want to see him in the Pro14; but if there was a quota system in place he'd never be cut. He is easily international calibre even if sound arguments can be made that others in that position deserve the nod.

I get the sense that you are nit-picking here...

Don't compare the Springboks with the Lions, there is a massive difference, and the National team is always under way heavier scrutiny than a franchise.

Again, Our government denies the quota system, as they don't want to play the victim card. But if you read my last comment, I mention that government (The ANC) are now talking about radical transformation. Which is their way of saying they will enforce the BEE (Black Economic Empowerment), Land Reform and other racially based policies.

What does the stuffing of a man in a coffin have to do with political parties?? That was just 2 idiots who stuffed their employee in a coffin to scare him in order that he stops stealing from them. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a political party.

As for the former head, she has been disciplined about her remarks. Again what does this have to do with the quota system?? Neither the 2 farmers, nor Ms. Helen Zille has any sway or power with regard to a quota system in South African Sport.

As for our U20 Baby Boks squad that played in the JWC, 13 of the 28 Players, are players of colour. That is 46%. Of which 6 are traditional african players. Again a 46% representation of the coloured players.

And as for our SA Schools team currently losing in our local tournament against France, Wales and England, we have 16 of the 28 players being players of colour. Which is 57%

Yeah, every year as we progress, it becomes even tougher for young black South Africans to play rugby, if we look at these numbers... (insert sarcasm font).

So which government Agent are you? Fikile? Julius? Bathabile? Or the all mighty and powerful Jacob?

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I get the sense that you are nit-picking here...

Don't compare the Springboks with the Lions, there is a massive difference, and the National team is always under way heavier scrutiny than a franchise.

Again, Our government denies the quota system, as they don't want to play the victim card. But if you read my last comment, I mention that government (The ANC) are now talking about radical transformation. Which is their way of saying they will enforce the BEE (Black Economic Empowerment), Land Reform and other racially based policies.

What does the stuffing of a man in a coffin have to do with political parties?? That was just 2 idiots who stuffed their employee in a coffin to scare him in order that he stops stealing from them. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a political party.

As for the former head, she has been disciplined about her remarks. Again what does this have to do with the quota system?? Neither the 2 farmers, nor Ms. Helen Zille has any sway or power with regard to a quota system in South African Sport.

As for our U20 Baby Boks squad that played in the JWC, 13 of the 28 Players, are players of colour. That is 46%. Of which 6 are traditional african players. Again a 46% representation of the coloured players.

And as for our SA Schools team currently losing in our local tournament against France, Wales and England, we have 16 of the 28 players being players of colour. Which is 57%

Yeah, every year as we progress, it becomes even tougher for young black South Africans to play rugby, if we look at these numbers... (insert sarcasm font).

So which government Agent are you? Fikile? Julius? Bathabile? Or the all mighty and powerful Jacob?

Haha, close. I'm Grace Mugabe, just a neutral observer! Well the relevance of the matters I highlighted is that while legally apartheid ended and there is no legal barrier to non-white children picking up the sport, the attitudes that underpinned apartheid do not simply disappear overnight.

White coaching staff around South Africa will still be of an age where they were brought up that rugby was "their game" and that will leave a legacy in some areas for many years to come (even if many, many coaches will have no such hangover and will treat everyone entirely on merit).

I stand corrected on the U20 front and hold my hand up to that. Like I said I only saw highlights but that does sound like progress and is welcome.

My gas is further at a peep after this weekend when what must have been the most multi-cultural Bok side in history (9 of 23 not ethnic European) put in a good shift. From my perspective I hope that will make it harder for posters to claim that some of the guys in the squad were clearly lacking in ability, should never have been there and were picked for their pigmentation.

Obviously there is an element of questioning selection with every team (e.g. I myself will express disbelief at Luke McLean, Italy; Jamie Roberts, Wales; Basteraud, France) as coaches always have their own little favourites that others can't understand.

Longer term; once you get to something like 9 out of 23 occuring naturally and having success on the field then things will start to take care of themselves without external pressure or interference. Interest in the sport will spread across different demographics and hopefully across people from all 11 of your official languages.

Even I would baulk at "extreme transformation", for example if they made the 90% target a legally binding quota. But I'd be relaxed about that if I were you, with the ANC's reversal of policy meaning they will now support a 2023 bid.

As horrible as 2016 (and 2015 losing to Japan) must have been for you guys, I am getting the impression that the SARU may be one of the best run unions, albeit in very challenging financial and political circumstances. Despite my moaning, I am optimistic for SA rugby. I thought you'd be back at the very top table in the 10-15 year prediction thread. At this rate you might be there by 2019!

 

[BPM]

Of course it is reasonable to be suspicious when there are 6, 7 or 8 non-white players in each Bok squad (the target being 7). But the Lions are routinely 5 or less. The SARU and government both categorically deny there is a quota system in place (quotes in first post of this thread).

With respect I'll take arithmetic and the word of officials in the know over local media reports. But like I say, in the political climate you are in I sympathise with sports fans. But let's not kid ourselves that every community in SA has their house in order except for ANC supporters. Recent coverage of the farmers stuffing a black man in a coffin an taunting him, or of the former head of the main opposition party making a remark about "not all of colonialism being bad" (grossly insensitive rather than inaccurate) show that the hurdles to black kids getting into sport may still remain, even if they aren't legally enforced like they were under apartheid.

I am less "optimistic" about the U20s, they looked very white to me (although I only saw highlights), plus Rhule and Beast are both qualified on residency so the current situation is even weaker than it appears in terms of rearing domestic talent from other demographics.

Finally, sounds like Mohoje has been cut from the Boks and released to the Currie Cup? I'm happy as I rate him as a ball carrier and want to see him in the Pro14; but if there was a quota system in place he'd never be cut. He is easily international calibre even if sound arguments can be made that others in that position deserve the nod.

I don't know if I'd agree on the U20s, Augustus, Simelane, Libbok and Lombard were among the best players. I've not included Papier as (forgive my ignorance), I'm not sure on his ethnicity. Others like Penxe and Moerat featured heavily without being outstanding, so I don't think you can say the team was 'very white'.

Personally, my hope is that colour becomes a non-issue becasue the representation on merit becomes equal. As with any age grade team, there's no guarantee that the players will kick-on and perform at senior level, but there's definitely some promise there.

 

[GarethGriffiths]

'Personally, my hope is that colour becomes a non-issue because the representation on merit becomes equal. As with any age grade team, there's no guarantee that the players will kick-on and perform at senior level, but there's definitely some promise there.'

My hopes and thoughts exactly.

Players need to be told that it is your skills and talents which will determine your success - nothing else matters. As with any industry, there will be winners and losers so provided that you can handle that, you should be fine (and let's not forget that losers can become winners and winners can become losers).