I have to disagree on Trevor Nyakane and Bongi Mbonambi's selection, they both I believe are there on merit. I think Nyakane needs to specialise as a tighthead, we have fantastic loose heads but are quite short on tightheads. Bongi and Trevor have both made good impacts when they came on, apart from Australia game for Trevor, he struggled at tighthead, but if he specialises there he can become alot better. I think Mohoje at his best can be quite the loosie, but currently he simply doesn't have the form to play at international level. Rudy is our main quota at the moment. Although Bongi hasn't been given much games, he is there on merit and made alot of good carries, Rudy hasn't simply hasnt had a great season at all, and shouldn't be there.
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The "South African Quota" catch-all thread
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I have to disagree on Trevor Nyakane and Bongi Mbonambi's selection, they both I believe are there on merit. I think Nyakane needs to specialise as a tighthead, we have fantastic loose heads but are quite short on tightheads. Bongi and Trevor have both made good impacts when they came on, apart from Australia game for Trevor, he struggled at tighthead, but if he specialises there he can become alot better. I think Mohoje at his best can be quite the loosie, but currently he simply doesn't have the form to play at international level. Rudy is our main quota at the moment. Although Bongi hasn't been given much games, he is there on merit and made alot of good carries, Rudy hasn't simply hasnt had a great season at all, and shouldn't be there.
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to those of you calling me ignorant
well yes, that is why i'm asking the questions
my overall point was to learn where saffas think the springboks should be and why they should be there
call me a troll, whatever, i was just trying to learn
well yes, that is why i'm asking the questions
my overall point was to learn where saffas think the springboks should be and why they should be there
call me a troll, whatever, i was just trying to learn
From a non-Saffa
For me, they should be clear 2nd in the world. That's the position they've occupied for most of my time alive (when not 1st) and its because they've usually been a clear 2nd when it comes to player production. That's because, insofar as I can tell, nowhere outside of New Zealand has so many people who grow up so deeply entrenched in rugby culture. Nobody lives up to their potential all the time but there's a clear gulf between where they usually are and currently are.
For me, they should be clear 2nd in the world. That's the position they've occupied for most of my time alive (when not 1st) and its because they've usually been a clear 2nd when it comes to player production. That's because, insofar as I can tell, nowhere outside of New Zealand has so many people who grow up so deeply entrenched in rugby culture. Nobody lives up to their potential all the time but there's a clear gulf between where they usually are and currently are.
Ospervat
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Good morning mole.
Apology accepted.
Best way to learn about the game is to play it and watch it. I played from the age of 8 right through till I was 50 and achieved some honours along the way.
I've also watched 1000's of hours of rugby over the years and hence have an inherent and instinctive sense for the game however I am equally aware that I will always be a student of the game and I too can learn from others. I know that I am not alone on this forum in that regard and there are some very knowledgable individuals who make valuable contributions on a regular basis. So this is a good place to learn.
Ask questions in an enquiring manner and you will be accommodated - challenge / offer opinions with empirical evidence to support your position and you will be listened to.
It's very easy to fall into the troll trap on most forums and this one is no exception. Brusque, ungracious, unsubstantiated and obscure commentary will achieve nothing. Be prepared to do your research and articulate your posts in a structured manner and you will be respected.
As a starting point I would point out that the international rugby union fraternity is unlike any other - this is a ruffians sport played and supported by gentlemen. It is a culture of brotherhood (& sisterhood) built on mutual respect and good sportsmanship - these are the founding building blocks and these qualities are what is expected here.
Good luck.
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the thing is i know a lot about rugby in the sense of playing it, refereeing it, and watching it
it's tough for me to get across what exactly i'm missing:
it's more the fan culture of different countries and areas
i guess mainly I'm very knowledgeable about the game itself and more recent rugby developments but the overall rugby identity of nations i am more unaware
partly because i am only in my early twenties and live in a country where rugby is a game we play (or watch when rarely on TV) and not a spectator sport where we know which countries and teams are historically successful
like when i was asking about what standards you hold the springboks to
i know that the springboks aren't good cause they play like ****; poor tackling, unimaginative attacking of defensive line, can't kick to points to save their life
it's just i have no point of reference to what the springboks "should" be
all i have is records saying that they are playing as well as they ever had... you know what i mean?
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I get what you are saying, but can you give some stats to back that, so far you have referenced the 60s only
Ospervat
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Ok.
So really you've only ever known the game under the professional code not when it was purely amateur and in some respects it is like comparing apples to oranges - the game has changed so much in the last 20 years not only in the way it is played ito the rules but also the size of players in the different positions, the skill sets they need and the strategies used.
Technology has also had a major impact on the game and like most pro sports today the sports science behind it all is quite mind boggling.
Until the pro code it really was all about the grunt. Most of the best players then just had a sixth sense about the game and that is what made them the best then there was the occasional genius who just oozed natural talent in every aspect (Danie Gerber is s good example).
But basically you went to work Monday to Friday 9-5, practice 2-3 nights a week for a couple of hours - get together on Saturday for a match and how you get there is your business and expense.
How different is that compared to today!
South Africa was excluded from all international sport from the late 60's up to the early 90's due to international pressure to boycott them because of their apartheid policies.
There was the odd tour -
1974 British Lions
1976 NZ
1980 British Lions
1981 SA tour to NZ
1984 England
1986 NZ Cavaliers (not official side)
SA did not participate in the 1987 and 1991 world cups.
From 1985 - 1991 they did not play a single recognised test.
So Currie cup was the premier domestic competition. This period saw some very talented players but they never got the recognition.
Fan culture has pretty much remained consistent however -
Southern Hemisphere:-
For NZ and SA Rugby union is the premier winter sport and so by implication this is the most traditional rivalry - rugby flows in their blood
Oz - not so much - they have a large supporter base for rugby league and Aussie rules as competing winter sports however they have always managed to put up a good team capable of beating any side on the day. Oz Union fans however are just as passionate and in typical Oz fashion bring a "in your face" style to the party. You gotta love it.
Argentina are the new SH top side and have only more recently turned Pro and it shows.
Northern hemisphere
England are probably the most successful NH side - and as the home of the IRB - matches against England by any SH side is always seen as traditional rivalry. However Football (soccer) is still the biggest winter sport in England and Scotland by a wide margin.
Rugby union is mostly played in the south of England while rugby league is the game of choice in the north.
Wales are probably the closest to SA & NZ ito fan passion - rugby is unquestionably in their blood.
There is rich history between SA & all the British sides going back 125 years particularly if you consider the first test played in 1891 and in between this and the 1903 tests there was the Anglo-Boer war between these two nations - you can understand the intensity of the rivalry which is still felt quite strongly by many of the staunchest Afrikaner (Boere) community.
As a point of reference to how good should the springboks be I would say you need to look at it from a perspective of tradition.
The White Saffa is a proud individual when it comes to the springboks. This is after all his national sport.
Point in case - SA did not lose a series home or away from 1903 - 1956 and yes it was under the amateur code, but it is still impressive and a hard act to follow. I don't think anybody is expecting that kind of record in the modern era but it is a indicator of the mentality of the SA rugby supporter and the expectations from their national side.
For SA to come back from apartheid isolation and win the 1995 World Cup is again another indicator of the Bok supporter and his expectations.
The die hard Bok supporter has watched every game his side has played in the last 20 years and his point of reference is that experience in and of itself and his opinion is based on that observable experience - it simply isn't a quantifiable statistic. It comes down to quality of leadership from the CEO of the SAR down to leadership on the field. It is about imaginative play, changing strategy, using initiative, instinctively reading the game in front of you and moments of individual brilliance. These are intangible qualities that cannot be quantified in any records.
As far as quotas, targets are concerned - call it what you like it is ultimately affirmative action-
For me - Here's the issue:- Schools rugby
Rugby is not the exclusive privilege of private schools - it is played across state schools however the quality of rugby played by these state schools has dropped dramatically over the last 20 years.
It is the private schools in the new South Africa that have tried to preserve the quality of rugby at school level otherwise this too would have perished but this is a very small pool and accessible to only a few of the most wealthy both black and white.
There is a right way (education and funding) and a wrong way (enforced bias) to implement affirmative action and social mobility across all spectrums of life. The political power in SA has elected to place racially based selection policies on the national side and its administration but in typical fashion had no plan to provide the funding for education at grass roots level in state schools to ensure continuity of talent in future generations.
It's taken exactly one generation to seriously erode the talent base in SA rugby and it is finally paying the price at national level.
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+South American Jaguars tours between 1980 and 1984. Bascially Argentina disguissed to dodge UAR's ban on playing against RSA.
The more i think about it the more convinced i am RSA has got this up-side down. Instead of having a system than prevents whites players from playing at top level they should have a system that promotes non-whites to join in at lower levels. It'll probably cost some money, but can you imagine the talent pool that could create?
CocoPampas
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I get why a lot of South africans got angry with @themole25.
However, I think he made two very valid points.
The first one, falling from the second spot in world rankings, or loosing a couple of matches against teams that are showing big improvements, shouldn't be enough to say they are performing below their potential.
I mean, in any year I 'd expect to see SA in the top 4. Sure, you would prefer to be 1st. But IMHO 3rd/4th in the world ranking is still under my expectations.
Also, loosing against some other T1 teams is possible in a given day. I know we always prefer to win. But, can happen and shouldn't be a catastrophy.
I'm not saying that they are actually playing well. I'm looking for a more objetive analysis and if possible to set a standard to compare your current form.
The second one, may be the quota system (although we agree is wrong) isn't the main/only problem.
Let say it in a different way. Do you think that if we take out the quota system the Springboks will reacovery their form?
Although the following factors will still be in place:
- Several important player in europe
- Current SA economy
- International rugby style/rules moving to a more open game
- Recent years, domestic competitions constant change
- etc.
However, I think he made two very valid points.
The first one, falling from the second spot in world rankings, or loosing a couple of matches against teams that are showing big improvements, shouldn't be enough to say they are performing below their potential.
I mean, in any year I 'd expect to see SA in the top 4. Sure, you would prefer to be 1st. But IMHO 3rd/4th in the world ranking is still under my expectations.
Also, loosing against some other T1 teams is possible in a given day. I know we always prefer to win. But, can happen and shouldn't be a catastrophy.
I'm not saying that they are actually playing well. I'm looking for a more objetive analysis and if possible to set a standard to compare your current form.
The second one, may be the quota system (although we agree is wrong) isn't the main/only problem.
Let say it in a different way. Do you think that if we take out the quota system the Springboks will reacovery their form?
Although the following factors will still be in place:
- Several important player in europe
- Current SA economy
- International rugby style/rules moving to a more open game
- Recent years, domestic competitions constant change
- etc.
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Ospervat
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The short answer is - no!
One last one to add to your list.
- SARU administration and leadership.
The erosion of the quality of SA rugby hasn't just happened overnight. This has been a long time coming. The rot started 20 years ago - slowly at first - then accelerated over the last 10 years- it just wasn't immediately evident on the pitch.
It will take decades to reverse the damage done.
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What about professionalisation And it's different effects on the playing pools of different countries. In South Africa it really didn't change things cause certain people played football and certain ones played rugby. It allowed Ireland to pull players away from GAA, England got players from football, and Australia and New Zealand were probably able to keep players from switching codes. New Zealand also just got things right in regards to professionalisation.
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This is a good article about the problems at the higher levels
http://www.vodacomrugby.co.za/cull-professional-players-unions/
I think that quotas are being used as a scapegoat more than anything
http://www.vodacomrugby.co.za/cull-professional-players-unions/
I think that quotas are being used as a scapegoat more than anything
Ospervat
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I don't see how quotas aren't having an impact. Any elite sports organisation, if people know that being the better player in better form and working harder doesn't necessarily mean selection, then things go sour. Quotas are exactly that.
There's a lot of other stuff going wrong as well and I think they are a bit of a scapegoat, but it surely has to be hurting things.
There's a lot of other stuff going wrong as well and I think they are a bit of a scapegoat, but it surely has to be hurting things.
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Let me respond to the bolded part and say yes.
Important players in Europe:
We have always had this issue since 1996, and have become accustomed to the exodus of our players, and up to 2015, we have always included those NH based players in the Springbok team, they were selected based on merit. 2016 has however changed a few things. And there's a call, especially from old Springboks to rather pick local based players. But with that said, we still selected a few NH based players. Steven Kitshoff, Duane Vermeulen, Bryan Habana and Francois Louw as an example.
Current SA Economy:
What has changed to the current economy as opposed to 1997? Our Currency is just as poor as it was then, we still have corruption and are still looking at outside investors. Nothing on this front has really changed.
International Rugby Style/Rules to a more open game:
Perhaps here is an area where we have to adapt. But people tend to have the notion that we can't play running rugby, when in fact we can. When we won the 2007 World cup and thereafter up to the end of PDV era, we used a more conservative play style, because it worked in our favour. We had kickers in Percy Montgomery and Morne Steyn who had 80%+ kicking succes from as far as the halfway line, and it was easier for us to grind it out and kick for goal. Some may find this boring rugby, yes, but it was a style that won us games, and trophies. But that didn't mean we never scored tries. Prior to 2007 we played a bit more open and at some stages it worked well and at other stages it didn't. I think the one game that comes to mind was the 2004 Tri-Nations match against the All Blacks when Marius Joubert scored a hat-trick.
What is frustrating me, personally is that we are now trying to play like the All Blacks. And we shouldn't, because we aren't the All Blacks. We are the Springboks and we should play like the Springboks. Even with rule changes and styles changing, we can still be one of the best teams in the world and still not lose our identity. As an example, I'll use the changes at the rucks over the years. When changes came to the ruck situation, and players could more easily turnover possession, a term for a flanker emerged as a poacher. And I think we can all agree that we had one of the best in the business in Heinrich Brussouw.
Recent Years, Domestic Competitions constant change:
Since the professional era began for rugby, there has always been constant changes, not just in recent years. First it was the Super 10, then Super 12, then Super 14, then Super 15 and now Super 18. We have grown accustomed to this, just like New Zealand and Australia.
As for Domestic Competitions, the Currie Cup as also frequently changed. in the 90's we didn't have a premier division and a second division, we had just one division, and the tournament was contested by 14-20 teams. In the 2000's we found that there was a clear difference between the bigger unions and the smaller unions, due to the professional nature of the sport has become, and we reverted to the 2 division system. But still there were changes, sometimes on a yearly basis. Sometimes the Currie Cup premier division was just 6 teams, other times it was 8 or 10 or 12, this year it's 9 teams.
Basically, the point I'm trying to get across is that everything else, apart from the quota system, has always been part of our Professional make-up as a rugby playing nation. And since 1994 up to now, the thing that has the entire country up in arms, is the quota system, and that it is now being enforced.
If an outsider doesn't understand this, then we will probably have an endless debate about this. There was even a survey on this topic earlier in the year, where at least 74% of Black South Africans voted against the quota system. http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/most-black-south-africans-oppose-sport-quotas-survey-20160531
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That's not completely true, in 1997 we were trading at about R5/US$, we are currently at R14/US$. and this is roughly the case around the world for us (pound from like R11 to R18 etc).
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fair enough, but our Currency has been a problem against other markets from around 1997 until now. That's the point I was trying to make. And since 1997 it has increased. In 2001 we were at one stage at R13 to the Dollar and in 2008 we were at one stage down just over R6 to the Dollar. But since then it has been a battle to keep it below R10 to the Dollar.
CocoPampas
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Don't worry, you've expressed your point of view very clear. I won't continue debating. Let me just say that we don't see it in the same way.
I hope I'm wrong, the problem you describe is much easier to solve that the one I see.
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Alistair Coetzee "I need help"
http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/RugbyChampionship/allister-i-need-help-20160924
The powers that be appear to have finally woken up and realised what the rest of us have known for months.
http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/RugbyChampionship/allister-i-need-help-20160924
The powers that be appear to have finally woken up and realised what the rest of us have known for months.
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Fine by me. Our problem can be easily solved, I think the general rugby public would agree on that. If we focus on picking players on merit, and not let politics have a say in our sport, then we're about 80% on our way of rectifying the damage. It's really that simple.
Coetzee says that it was the media that made it up: http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/RugbyChampionship/what-sos-have-i-sent-coetzee-20160926
