[June Tests 2018: 1st Test] South Africa vs. England (09/06/2018)

[TRF_Olyy]

Curry could genuinely slot in at centre on attack and make a good fist of it
Would put money on him being faster than Brown/Farrell

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

people complain about playing players out of position and then others suggest playing even more players out of position.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

people complain about playing players out of position and then others suggest playing even more players out of position.

Beaumont played 10 as a kid, and is currently in South Africa
Put him at 15


I'm, obviously, not saying play curry at centre, just that with no hard carrying threats in the backs he's a useful carrying option wider out

 

[ratsapprentice]

Shields a useful wide carrier if/when he comes on too.

Just want to say that I'm really excited about Isiekwe. If he can play well on this tour, I think he could cement himself as one of the first names on the teamsheet for a very long time.
He's one of the few proper lineout calling locks to come through our U20's for a while. I've said it before, but I think he's got all the potential in the world.
Understated, but absolute quality.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/6ft-7-inch-120kg-nick-isiekwe-aims-bulk-special-diet

Agree with that target weight - 122kg seems pretty bang on for him.
He's big without being bulky.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

I'm, obviously, not saying play curry at centre, just that with no hard carrying threats in the backs he's a useful carrying option wider out

So now you're saying play him on the wing...?

Seriously though, don't tell Eddie, we've already had Nowell to centre, Cipriani to Full-back, Brown to the Wing...What's next? Bruce Craig to S&C coach?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Don't think Nowell to centre or Cips to FB are anything like Brown to the wing.

Cips and Nowell both played a lot in those positions as juniors, and Nowell particularly, is potentially very well suited to OC.
Cips maybe doesn't have the outright pace he used to, or the ideal level of defensive skill, but it's not mental.

Brown just doesn't offer anything on the wing that will worry defence, and he'll be a massive target for their entire team to focus on when they have the ball.
He'll be solid under the high ball - and that's about it.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Don't think Nowell to centre or Cips to FB are anything like Brown to the wing.

Cips and Nowell both played a lot in those positions as juniors, and Nowell particularly, is potentially very well suited to OC.
Cips maybe doesn't have the outright pace he used to, or the ideal level of defensive skill, but it's not mental.

Brown just doesn't offer anything on the wing that will worry defence, and he'll be a massive target for their entire team to focus on when they have the ball.
He'll be solid under the high ball - and that's about it.

Brown is the only one of those three to start games in his secondary position internationally - he spent pretty much all of the 2013 6 nations on the wing. Nowell and Cips have played centre and FB sparingly at club level. Brown to wing is the least risky of the three by some margin. Secondly, the one thing Brown can do is carry hard and with aggression, no he's not a great finisher or likely to round anyone, but he can do a job. He also never passes, which is less of an issue on the wing. Lastly, his strength under the high-ball and having two strong kickers in the back 3 gives us a tactical advantage over SA in that area.

I'm not a big Brown fan and I don't think he has a place in our best 23, but I'd prefer him to start this test than Solomona or Earle and to describe the move as "mental" or frankly any different to playing Nowell or Cipriani out of position is not fair IMO.

 

[Scotty]

Robshaw didnt have a good 6n, shocking against baabaas and hasnt exactly been smashing it for quins. With mako george sinkler itoje billy, you have enough experience in the pack to give shields a start and he is obv a leader on the pitch as he was captain.
Hughes simmonds on the bench if you want no lock cover.

Brown is not a winger, he's too slow and have him in the 23 shirt that way you have cover, i get its cover just incase so they dont have to sub but i just think its daft, if your dping that then play woodward, leasy its attacking FB cover on the wing lol.

Teams not bad as a whole them 2 just bug me. Need daly, george and shields(when on) to smash it this series to keep their starting place.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Brown is the only one of those three to start games in his secondary position internationally - he spent pretty much all of the 2013 6 nations on the wing. Nowell and Cips have played centre and FB sparingly at club level. Brown to wing is the least risky of the three by some margin.

You're completely ignoring their fundamental suitability for those positions though.

Brown played that 6n on the wing and it was ****. He played the other week and it was ****.

When he was at his best he carried effectively - now... not so much.
His lack of pace is potentially a very, very serious issue.

There are certain areas where's he's going to be solid - in others, massively exposed.
That exposure may not occur - but if it does....

 

[NickBD]

Robshaw didnt have a good 6n, shocking against baabaas and hasnt exactly been smashing it for quins. With mako george sinkler itoje billy, you have enough experience in the pack to give shields a start and he is obv a leader on the pitch as he was captain.
Hughes simmonds on the bench if you want no lock cover.

Brown is not a winger, he's too slow and have him in the 23 shirt that way you have cover, i get its cover just incase so they dont have to sub but i just think its daft, if your dping that then play woodward, leasy its attacking FB cover on the wing lol.

Teams not bad as a whole them 2 just bug me. Need daly, george and shields(when on) to smash it this series to keep their starting place.

I think if Shields had travelled a week early I think we would have seen him start. I read he travelled from NZ to London then from London to SA with only 3 days of training before the game.

 

[HenryChinaski]

Brown is the only one of those three to start games in his secondary position internationally - he spent pretty much all of the 2013 6 nations on the wing. Nowell and Cips have played centre and FB sparingly at club level. Brown to wing is the least risky of the three by some margin. Secondly, the one thing Brown can do is carry hard and with aggression, no he's not a great finisher or likely to round anyone, but he can do a job. He also never passes, which is less of an issue on the wing. Lastly, his strength under the high-ball and having two strong kickers in the back 3 gives us a tactical advantage over SA in that area.

I'm not a big Brown fan and I don't think he has a place in our best 23, but I'd prefer him to start this test than Solomona or Earle and to describe the move as "mental" or frankly any different to playing Nowell or Cipriani out of position is not fair IMO.

Brown being played on the wing back in 2013 doesn't make it right, particularly since Lancasters habit of picking players out of position is well documented. Add to this the fact that this was 5 years ago and Brown is now even slower - if you'd have told me five years ago he would have be even slower I wouldn't have thought it possible, but there you have it.

Nowell and Cipriani are bad comparisons because they're both skillful players neither of whom lack a key attribute to play in the other positions they have been picked in. If Cipriani was demonstrably poor under the high ball, that would be equivalent or near enough to picking Brown on the wing.

I'd add to this consideration of where we are right now - having lost four on the bounce I see really no reason for conservative selections like this. If Solomona is good enough to make it into the 23 I'd say he should be good enough to start, unless you're just do scared of his defensive frailties but if that was the case he wouldn't be picked at all. It's just pointless and a waste.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think if Shields had travelled a week early I think we would have seen him start. I read he travelled from NZ to London then from London to SA with only 3 days of training before the game.

Article I read said his first day of training he wasn't allowed to do much anyway as they have jetlag protocols to follow for getting players back into training, so it's understandable him not starting if he's only had 2 and a bit days in camp.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Robshaw didnt have a good 6n, shocking against baabaas and hasnt exactly been smashing it for quins. With mako george sinkler itoje billy, you have enough experience in the pack to give shields a start and he is obv a leader on the pitch as he was captain.
Hughes simmonds on the bench if you want no lock cover.

Brown is not a winger, he's too slow and have him in the 23 shirt that way you have cover, i get its cover just incase so they dont have to sub but i just think its daft, if your dping that then play woodward, leasy its attacking FB cover on the wing lol.

Teams not bad as a whole them 2 just bug me. Need daly, george and shields(when on) to smash it this series to keep their starting place.

Robshaw has been one of the best quins players at the tale end of the season... It's not an achievement really I know, but when Marler, Sincks, Brown etc all looked like they didn't give a **** he still played really well.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

since Lancasters habit of picking players out of position is well documented.

Funny innit? We’re crying out for a big bruising centre who can string more than 2 games together and a hard hitting aggressive 6.

Anyone else wondering how Sam Burgess might have turned out?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If the Burgess saga never happened we might have Fearns as our established blindside by now

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

If the Burgess saga never happened we might have Fearns as our established blindside by now

Nah... **** attitude

 

[mdaclarke]

Bliksem! That's just sad!

Mine is more like this:
1) Serious discussion with my brothers, father and friends about the composition of the team and where we can improve (usually about 3 months ahead of the first game)
2) 2 weeks before the game the excitement builds and our whatsapp group is full of jokes, predictions and shared media reports.
3) When the team is announced there are usually 2 outcomes. Either excitement or disappointment (under AC it was mostly disappointment).
4) The morning of the test, I put on my bok jersey, go to the local butchery, get some biltong, droewors and braaivleis. Listen to Leon Schuster in the car - Klip fokken hard!
5) Watch the game, shouting profusely at the tv, wife upset that I woke the babies
6) We lose/win - have a braai and wonder what could have changed, and look forward to the next one...

I'd love to try proper South African Biltong, the stuff we have in UK is nice but I bet it's a pale imitation of the real thing

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Shields a useful wide carrier if/when he comes on too.

Just want to say that I'm really excited about Isiekwe. If he can play well on this tour, I think he could cement himself as one of the first names on the teamsheet for a very long time.
He's one of the few proper lineout calling locks to come through our U20's for a while. I've said it before, but I think he's got all the potential in the world.
Understated, but absolute quality.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/6ft-7-inch-120kg-nick-isiekwe-aims-bulk-special-diet

Agree with that target weight - 122kg seems pretty bang on for him.
He's big without being bulky.

Agreed. And if he adapts quickly to the international game I’d love to see him paired with Lawes. Sorry, but I just like big locks and the thought of 2 6’ 7” athletes in the row is pretty appealing. Itoje can bring his tigger act off the bench.

 

[spartan32]

Yep great comment.

I’m not happy about this midfield at all, 3 ball players and a fourth on the bench, no line breakers at all. Some of us have been *****ing about a lack of ball carriers in the pack fir ages, now it looks like we’re phasing them out from the backs as well! Amongst that starting lineup I count 6 players who I’d consider running with the ball an identified strength - that’s nowhere near enough. (Since you ask: Vunipolae, Sinckler, Youngs, May, Daly)

This XV has kick-and-clap circa 2009 written all over it. Eek

We don’t have any ball carries in the whole
Squad for midfield. Manu, Teo both out and no one else brought in. All we have left is guile and Binny to punch holes. Half the reason we have struggled is lack of bulk in this area, but it is what it is.

On their day Slade, Francis and Loz can all pose real threats, whether they can handle the aggressive and abrasive nature of a Saffer test will remain to be seen.

Brown on the wing!? All I can guess is that it’s a chance to get Daly some full back experience while providing some experienced cover on the field. Also playing full back gives Daly more of a chance to pop up midfield during attacking phases. It’s either a very cunning plan or poorly thought out disaster waiting to happen.

It is nice to see some young talented lads get a shot and I hope they take it. The Saffers have been pretty ropey of late (as have we) and I think both teams need a good showing. Given the cultural importance of this test for the Saffers, first black captian etc. I expect them to come out hard And with passion. I think they probably have more emotionally invested in this series than we do and that will probably play in their favour. We need to find our passion. No more excuses. It’s time for this England team to start performing. The World Cup is looming and time is running out.

 

[BPM]

If the Burgess saga never happened we might have Fearns as our established blindside by now

At the time I was sympathetic towards Fearns but the way he has behaved since changed my opinion.

I dislike Burgess more though.

Post World Cup, I would have liked to have seen him suck it up, establish himself as a 6 and really earn his call-ups. I think he would have made it if his ego hadn’t got in the way.