[June Tests 2018: 1st Test] South Africa vs. England (09/06/2018)

[NickBD]

Ignoring that the Bokke were better, man for man, and that England have now lost 6(?) games on the trot, it was obviously the ref that blew it for the roses. O.0

Faf De Klerk simply outplayed his opposite, marshaling his team to attack over and over and over, without respite, and England didn’t have an answer except to let penalty magnet Itojie loose with abandon.

May and Brown exposed SAs scrambling defence, but the reality was that after 20 minutes England hit a wall and didn’t know what to do.

That isn’t to say they gave up or didn’t try as hard as they could, but they just weren’t good enough to unpick the Saffers.

You would think that after a half-dozen times of up-and-unders handing the control back to the Bokke, they would have tried something else, but no. Plan B was like Plan A, but faster...

Willy Le Roux, Faf De Klerk deserved dual man of the match awards. Le Roux never shut up, directing play all over the park, pushing his teammates.

And don’t underestimate the impetus of having the first black captain in their history and his effect in pushing the team.

Who was the English captain? I saw a lot of faces being pulled and frustration and whining to the ref, us not a lot of leadership.

And Robshaw is done. Just doesn’t have what it takes. Brown is awful on defence, as is Ford. Great going forward, clueless on the back foot. Big polynesians are useful if you have the speed and ball handling and lines to use them, but Jones seems to think they are best used as a sledgehammer.

The sheer amount of passes put in by SA was notable, even if they were a little ragged, at least they were throwing it about - it left the England centre pairing flummoxed, running hither and non.

A really enjoyable game, from the view of a disinterested third party that really would support any team playing either of them

Mate not one person has actually said this was the case. We're allowed to say we got outplayed and SA deserved to win but the ref made a number of errors.

 

[RoosTah]

This had to be the match of the weekend. I thought England were going to win by 60 after the first 15 mins when they went up 24-3 - how they managed to lose and concede the next 5 tries before a late flurry to make the score close will be very troubling to Eddie "Traitor" Jones. Only thing that marred it was that weird yellow card to Vunipola, but given in union they send you off for tickling above the shoulders now, it wasn't that surprising. But on that count that penalty magnet Etoji bloke was lucky to stay on the field with his numerous swinging arm high tackles

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

19 tackles, one missed
Highest in either side, next highest is George with 13
23m off of 3 carries, as well, which is impressive. Only Binny made more metres as a forward, and he made more ground than Slade, Ford and Youngs.

I thought Curry did really pretty well. Worth persevering with.

We do need much more natural aggression and hard hitting though - the kind of attitude that Genge Underhill and Manu all naturally have. Thought Sinckler had it too but his form’s disappeared down a plug hole. We’re just too passive.

Fitness permitting I’d like to see Launch paired with Isiekwe. Never fully onboard the Itoje hype train anyway and his penalty count is consistently ridiculous. Some bench time for him.

May had the odd typical cross field excursion, but had some other very nice touches and took his try well.

Where to play Daly? Coming to the conclusion that wing might be best after all. Woodward’s a specialist full back with a good attacking game. Let’s see him given a chance.

 

[Jimbo]

When you put it all in perspective it wasn’t horrific for England, concerning how many points they leaked, but there were some good points to, if you factor in the altitude, couple of things like Daly missing the ball and the ref being inconsistent at the breakdown in it could have been worse.

The Ford Faz axis works well on the front foot but when we are not, really require a plan b, maybe Faz at 10 and a big hitter like Barret would offer a little more resilience in defence.

Itoje needs dropping he is just conceding too many pens.

If we are going to continue accepting we will concede too many try’s and rely on outscoring opposition rather than nullifying their attacks cips is defiantly worth a shot.

Not that wings are an issue but I would like to see wade get a shot anyone who watches Wasps will know he no longer has the defensive vulnerability he had in the past and can literally strike from anywhere at any time, closest thing England have to a Jason Robinson currently.

Only comment on Robshaw is he simply isn’t up to the job.

 

[Jimbo]

Where to play Daly? Coming to the conclusion that wing might be best after all. Woodward’s a specialist full back with a good attacking game. Let’s see him given a chance.

For me Daly is fine at 15 bad day at the office, not familiar with the position but give him a little time, that miss on the line in all honesty could have happened to anyone, just one of those horrific could of seconds, a few over hit kicks Probably altitude playing a part outside of that I didn’t think he looked out of place.

 

[MarkyH]

Some great attacking play, some awful defence. After going 24-3 up we should of played tight, and built up phases. Instead we kick away.

We lack aggression still, and we box kick WAY too much.

Robshaw was again pedestrian, would like to see Simmonds & Curry as 6/7 next weekend.

But if Daly hadn't missed that ball, if Itoje didn't gamble for the FDK try we could've stemmed the SA attacking pressure.

I love May, his try was ridiculous...

 

[Gena_ZA]

Great game to attend, will post pics and stuff later, need to attend to hands and knees, took a fall outside after the game, non alcohol related

 

[TommiG88]

If we go 2-0 down, I would like to see a bit of a an experimental back line in the final game.

10 Farrell
11 May
12 Lozowski / Slade
13 Daly
14 Earle (Watson when fit)
15 Woodward

22 Ford
23 Brown

 

[Big_Grumper]

OK, I’ve had time to think and gain some perspective. It was bad - at times horrendous - but there were a few positives. Ford/Faz looked OK going forward and with Daly coming into the line it gave us some options. Ditto, that’s one of May’s better games in a white shirt.

I’m not going to linger on the negatives; I’ll be here all day. I’d like to see some changes for next week. The front row weren’t up for it, so change them all. Marler, LC-D & Williams to start (or Genge). Itoje has to come out; Launchbury in for him. Robshaw out; back row of Shields, Simmonds & Curry.

I’m undecided about Tom Youngs and the centre combination - perhaps bring Loz in for Slade. Daly to remain at 15. Solomona onto wing for Brown.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Simmonds and Curry are not 6's IMO.

Talk is Genge had a injury not sure how accurate that is.

 

[Big_Grumper]

Simmonds and Curry are not 6's IMO.

Talk is Genge had a injury not sure how accurate that is.

Who would you have at 6, @Tigs Man ?

 

[Yoshimitsu]

So the morning after.....

Those kind of losses can do more damage than a whistle to whistle shellacking at the hands of a superior outfit which in my view South Africa are not. For all the smashy crashy stuff and pace we've got this, was a top two inches game and England just don't have it. As someone mentioned above Plan B was Plan A but more of it. That's incredibly frustrating. We persist with keeping the ball in play from kicks. Some statsman somewhere has calculated that this is a good plan and we stick with it despite the evidence in front of our eyes that perhaps giving the ball to Willie le Roux (well played sir) is best avoided. In my view South Africa effectively won that game with a couple of stand-out performances from Le Roux and De Clerk. They lit the fire and England simply let it spread and at times actually fanned the flames (not a yellow card but just don't be a dick Mako). Fair play to the rest of the Boks for rising to the occasion.

It appears to have become horribly old fashion to slow the game down a bit to your own advantage. England have actually dispensed with tactical control completely. It's all very well having belief that it'll come good but we're finding out that even if it does it's often too late. At 24-3, some territory and set pieces would have duller the ardor of the Saffers and that was what was required. If you're happy your defence is good enough (errr) then defending up the pitch is a pretty decent way of tiring a team out and frustrating them. Letting them just run it back from aimless kicking is just stupid.

It's sad to see an ageing heavyweight continue beyond the point at which it's clear that whatever they had is gone. No I'm not talking about the Gypsy King (Jesus! that was a hard watch) but Chris Robshaw. That single game alone showed why he shouldn't be near the squad anymore. He'll never ever give less than 100% and that's to be admired but if that effort is largely ineffective, time is up.

What to say about Mike Brown? This, "you're not quick enough Mike!". Fair play for the try, not many score that but watching Le Roux size up Mr Brown gave me the fear. On toast. Every time.

Just a question. The scrum penalty where we got our arses handed to us. Was that when we were playing with one legitimate lock (which is funny given recent history of playing about 5)? It's almost like there could be some correlation.

Maro has caught Haskellitis. It can't be cured I'm afraid, not without a long course of treatment along the lines of "Stop giving away ******* penalties or you are dropped".

The ref - not the cause, but too many poor decisions. Though before someone has a pop about this being a nationality based thing he was nowhere near as bad as Luke Pearce in the NZ vs France game!

Finally to just to echo the Jonny May man love. Almost every time he gets the ball the first words out of my mouth are "What the **** are you doing? Where the **** are you going? Not there Jonny! Run forwards you arsehole" only to have the anxiety dissipate as he does something absolutely ludicrous. Like jog past international wingers and fullbacks. It is going to go wrong but he's quite fun to watch in a behind the sofa kind of way.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Who would you have at 6, @Tigs Man ?

Honestly Shields, he was alright IMO playing out of position and he was a big lineout taker which is a major bonus for a 6.

 

[unrated]

The interpretations of breakdown laws are different betw een the SH and NH. When i saw its a NZ ref i was happy because i knew we would have a good understanding of what was expected and i knew o keefe would (understand?) us. That's how it should be with home advantage, you get a ref with the same law interpretations in terms of the NH/SH divide. When we play in England then they can get (and they do) a NH ref where SH has struggled in the past.

For the next game in Bloemfontein we get Romain Poite. He is our worst nightmare along with that other awful ref named Jerome Garces. No disrespect to the French, very nice country, nice landscape, nice wine and champagne, but worst refs in world rugby by a long shot.
Also they schemed and lobbied so hard to take the next world cup away from South Africa i feel that French refs should be banned from South Africa as a retaliatory measure. So yea NH ref for the next game in the series, expect England to benefit more from the interpretations as there is a difference.


I was impressed with Daly and May in the England squad. Farrel seems an odd choice for captain? He he is probably one of your better players but not sure of the mentality i witnessed last night. He moaned constantly (He obviously has that right, i'm not taking anything away). Maybe instead focus on the recovery? if Etzebeth or Kolisi or Whiteley acted the same way as him last night then our media would have ripped them apart.

 

[General Melchett]

It really wouldn't surprise me to see Gatland walking straight into the England job after his contract with the WRU is up.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

It really wouldn't surprise me to see Gatland walking straight into the England job after his contract with the WRU is up.

Most definitely not, I don't think they would bother exteding Eddie's contract for a transitional period if we were gonna get an experienced HC... More likely Baxter/McCall or someone like that

 

[HenryChinaski]

I really don't agree with taking Gustard on this tour - we've been defensively suspect for a while and Gustards on his way out anyway.

Painful though it was it was great to see attacks on top; the dominance of defenses in recent times has often left me thoroughly bored by rugby. Really admire faf and Willie and the pace they put on the game - we couldn't live with that.
It was really a shitshow of indiscipline and individual errors. Dalys mistake at the back, Itojes mistake before that where he tried to jackle the ball but lost his footing and fell into the ruck leaving an unguarded tryline...
Some players simply need to be dropped until they sort themselves out discipline wise, but equally if our coaches can't instill that discipline then they are the problem as much as any player.
Robshaw and Brown are done, or should be.
Most referees need binning too.
Think we'll actually win the next game due to Poites breakdown interpretation which should allow us to stay in possession.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

It appears to have become horribly old fashion to slow the game down a bit to your own advantage. England have actually dispensed with tactical control completely. It's all very well having belief that it'll come good but we're finding out that even if it does it's often too late. At 24-3, some territory and set pieces would have duller the ardor of the Saffers and that was what was required.

Well said. There’s been a nasty outbreak of Southern Hemisphereitis. Sometimes you just need to do the simple things and then put the the ball in row Z. Highlights reel no, a way to win a match, yes. That kind of control is down to the half backs.

Good rugby’s about doing the right thing at the right time. Youngs and Ford have enough experience now for us to be able to expect them to control a match from a winning position.

 

[The5thOfficial]

From a literary point of view, having read this thread from start to finish you couldn't make it up - the highest of highs and lowest of lows.

I see EJ making friends and influencing people again, in the tunnel after the game!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Well said. There’s been a nasty outbreak of Southern Hemisphereitis. Sometimes you just need to do the simple things and then put the the ball in row Z. Highlights reel no, a way to win a match, yes. That kind of control is down to the half backs.

Good rugby’s about doing the right thing at the right time. Youngs and Ford have enough experience now for us to be able to expect them to control a match from a winning position.

To be fair - they were trying to do that. Daly' fluffed two kicks too long, and Youngs didn't find touch at least twice, maybe three times.
That's quite a lot....

 

[TommiG88]

I think Daly was trying the dab the ball down, when in reality it was easier to slide and smother.

 

[Big_Grumper]

@Tigs Man I’m happy with Shields at 6. I think I got my numbers mixed up. I’d have Curry at 7 and Simmonds at 8.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think Daly was trying the dab the ball down, when in reality it was easier to slide and smother.

Think he simply missed it, regardless of what he was trying to do... bounce of the ball and all that.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

I think Daly was trying the dab the ball down, when in reality it was easier to slide and smother.

It's unreasonable to expect perfection, but full backs live or die by fine margins. In terms of outcome I guess absolutely best case is that Daly regathers the ball and his feet, beats 15 defenders over runs 100 over metres and scores the best try ever. Probability several hundred million to one against. At the other end of the scale is failing to deal with the ball and allowing SA to score. I think you're right Daly attempted to secure the 22 rather than a defensive 5 m scrum. That's flawed thinking in my view in the game situation. Sure SA may score in the subsequent phases of play but they have to execute in order to so. I like Daly a lot but that error and the over hoofing contributed a significant amount to that defeat. Hopefully he'll learn.

 

[Big_Grumper]

When is the squad for next Saturday’s game announced?

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

When is the squad for next Saturday’s game announced?

Same again I guess - Thursday at 12.30

 

[Reiser99]

I think I've said it elsewhere, but my biggest concern is England's complete inability to adapt and play whats in front of them. As people have highlighted, when things go wrong and whether or not the ref is being harsh, they just end up complaining instead of trying to fix it. The management don't seem to have a plan B and the players can't think for themselves.

 

[ratsapprentice]

They don't even seem to complain that much though, they just accept it and do nothing.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Think he simply missed it, regardless of what he was trying to do... bounce of the ball and all that.

Bounce of the ball can do anyone, but maybe it was the difference between a talented footballer playing fullback and a fullback playing fullback. As well as the kicks I think there was also one high ball he went up for, got nowhere near and knocked on.

Fullback’s one of the critical positions in the spine of the team where you need someone rock solid and confidence instilling - why I’ve been a big fan of Rob Kearney over the years. I’d say 2, 8, 9 & 10 are the others in the spine.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Those two things are not really positional... as a winger he does both.