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Tigs Man said:
It isn't a massive red herring, although it isn't anywhere near the main problem.
BUT hearing what some of the pros are saying, really Eddie would have been needing to train at altitude for 4 + weeks, and he doesn't have that time to do it with the way the system is set-up.
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That's why it's a red-herring. If the players were obviously blowing out of their arses after 20 mins it would possibly be a subject of criticism, but really... in neither tests has that been the case.
If anything - their fitness at altitude has been impressive.

Listen to the way he talks about it... because noted altitude expert Matt Dawson questioned it, that's the reason they lost the game. Burn Eddie.
It wilfully ignores the fact that there isn't one universally regarded methodology for dealing with altitude in a short period.
 
Tigs Man said:
BUT hearing what some of the pros are saying, really Eddie would have been needing to train at altitude for 4 + weeks, and he doesn't have that time to do it with the way the system is set-up.
Click to expand...
The details are not universally agreed - laregly as every individual is different, and the numbers can also change with repeated exposure to altitude but...

It's absolutely agreed that anywhere between 2 days and 2 weeks is actively detrimental; for some the 2 days can be as low as 1/2 a day, whilst for others, the 2 weeks can be as long as 4 weeks. Those times are the break-even and represent the outliers. Rugby is a team game, so you can't tailor this to the individual, I'd argue (and think I did earlier in the thread) that anything between 24 hours and 21 days as an active detriment to the team
 
Re-fractured his arm. Looks like he’s turning into Manu with his injury record. So he’ll be on the plane home with Mako and Genge.

It’s been said on here before - Jones has to create a game plan which doesn’t just rely on Binny and then when he’s not available a poorer version in Hughes to slot in and play the same game.

So for the he third test we could see Shields moved to 8 and Robshaw back at 6? With Curry staying at 7.
 
Simmonds is underpowered at international level as an 8. Vermeulen would have him for breakfast. As a 6? Has he played much there for Exeter. A gamble playing yet another player out of position, even if it is a dead rubber. If not playing him at 6 agree with Rats and might as well play Wilson at 6.
 
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If he picks Hughes then that hints at Eddie not trying anything different from what is not working.
If we see more changes and plans to increase the use of players actually making a difference, i.e. the f**k it team as called earlier, then that will Eddie has had enough.
Just for fun, I would like to see a half back and back line combo of:
9. Robson
10. Cipriani
12. Lozowski
13. Daly
 
Never realised this, but the BBC have given me some hope -
Jones likes his rugby history, which is just as well, for that is where the only real consolation lies.

Less than a year before storming to the 2011 World Cup semi-finals, Wales had completed a seven-match winless streak by drawing at home with Fiji.

The year before England reached the final of 2007, they had lost seven games in a row, including defeats by Scotland, at home by Argentina and by a 25-point margin against France.
 
noah_jo said:
Never realised this, but the BBC have given me some hope -
Jones likes his rugby history, which is just as well, for that is where the only real consolation lies.

Less than a year before storming to the 2011 World Cup semi-finals, Wales had completed a seven-match winless streak by drawing at home with Fiji.

The year before England reached the final of 2007, they had lost seven games in a row, including defeats by Scotland, at home by Argentina and by a 25-point margin against France.
Click to expand...

This is the crazy/wishful thinking that I need right now, because I'm all out of ideas.

Next week for me, we're going to have to hugely change the game plan with the loss of Mako/Billy. But, here's me now remembering that we have EJ and he'll shoe horn somebody else into their roles...
 
noah_jo said:
Never realised this, but the BBC have given me some hope -
Jones likes his rugby history, which is just as well, for that is where the only real consolation lies.

Less than a year before storming to the 2011 World Cup semi-finals, Wales had completed a seven-match winless streak by drawing at home with Fiji.

The year before England reached the final of 2007, they had lost seven games in a row, including defeats by Scotland, at home by Argentina and by a 25-point margin against France.
Click to expand...

So we lose the next game and at least exit the group stages next world cup? Solid long term tactical thinking.
 
Mumbles119 said:
If he picks Hughes then that hints at Eddie not trying anything different from what is not working.
If we see more changes and plans to increase the use of players actually making a difference, i.e. the f**k it team as called earlier, then that will Eddie has had enough.
Just for fun, I would like to see a half back and back line combo of:
9. Robson
10. Cipriani
12. Lozowski
13. Daly
Click to expand...

What about
9. Spencer
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Loz
13. Daly
14. Solomona
15. Woodward/Brown

Its bit out there but spencer faz loz. Play as a combo at sarries. Daly brings pace at 13 and loz isnt unable to draw a defender. May and solomona are pace outwide and brown is solid or woodward is an attacking 15. Before i talked against this but we have lost the series so its worth a gamble.
 
scotty507 said:
What about
9. Spencer
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Loz
13. Daly
14. Solomona
15. Woodward/Brown

Its bit out there but spencer faz loz. Play as a combo at sarries. Daly brings pace at 13 and loz isnt unable to draw a defender. May and solomona are pace outwide and brown is solid or woodward is an attacking 15. Before i talked against this but we have lost the series so its worth a gamble.
Click to expand...
Would like to see that backline option too!
13 appears to be the highest priority issue area for the backline, and Daly is the best option in the available squad for that.

Both our backline suggestions are playing on the familiarity advantage, but I feel the priority issue is the more difficult problem of our forwards. Now the hand of change is forced with no Billy or Mako, I worry that Eddie will not change anything and just shoehorn Hughes in, not change the plan at all and still expect a different result to last five games.

Trying to identify the forwards that made a difference from the starting pack:
1. Mako - should be a difference maker, but looks tired and overused for carrying. The was one point in the game, when Mako had been passed the ball for a carry yet again (just after getting off the floor), looked knackered and I thought Mako must hate rugby now, he's had enough, no more please!
2. George - not sure how much impact or difference he made? Frustrated as I wanted him to take his chance with this Hartley shaped hole, felt he was generally passive.
3. Sinckler - Again frustrated with him, because he is a self-proclaimed scrum geek not showing anything but just ok in the scrums and nothing to make a difference outside of set piece. I would expected him to take his chance with no Cole about to really show himself as an aggressive carrier we have seen him be in the past.
4. Launchbury - Is always Mr Reliable, but as we know, he is also the guy to be the one that makes that key momentum difference late in the game with a giraffe like half break or crucial tackle. Maybe he is not yet up to full speed, because he is fulfilling the Mr Reliable part of his game, but no extras are in evidence yet.
5. Maro - Really frustrated with him. Seems to be overplaying or forcing everything, but he definitely has the drive to want to make a difference, but actually is causing more issues than benefit. Needs to have a re-think and some coaching on his play style focus.
6. Shields - Was really impressed. Other days those tries will be finished successfully, and he showed consistent good pace getting to rucks, and was also consistently effective at the ruck too. Shields working like this, but as part of a high performing forward pack, would be a massive benefit.
7. Curry - Was also impressed with Curry. He adds a genuine threat to the breakdown, even if he not successful, he is still keeping the opposition aware that he is threat. Same as above with Shields; as part of high performing pack, Curry will be a great asset.
8. Billy - Definitely more contribution than the first test, but appeared to be up for this match only sporadically. Still off the pace? or not really wanting to be there and enjoying it? Gutted for him with another injury.

In summary we have players that should be difference makers, but are not making that positive extra difference, and with some of them even going into the level negative difference.

For the immediate situation, this translates as demotions for the players that I feel are hindering our forward impact and game, and would look at dropping George, Sinckler and Maro.

So working with what is available for us to select from in the tour squad:
1. Marler (Would like Hepburn, but as he has only just flown in, maybe not up to speed. Should have been there earlier to cover Genge?)
2. LCD
3. Williams
4. Launchbury
5. Isiekwe
6. Shields
7. Curry
8. Wilson ( I feel that Wilson has more strengths for the heavy duty needs, than the pacy threat Simmonds has).

8 is definitely the elephant in the room issue. But Hughes is not offering enough of a difference and the dumb penalties are completely idiotic. Another option would be to move Shields to 8, but lets start trying to play players in their best position if we want players to make the biggest difference they can.
 
Agree with most of that, Mumbles.

Something I've found very concerning is our lack of ability to maul properly.
We are really bad at defending it, and not much better at using our own.
 
ratsapprentice said:
Agree with most of that, Mumbles.

Something I've found very concerning is our lack of ability to maul properly.
We are really bad at defending it, and not much better at using our own.
Click to expand...
Yes, we just seem toothless at mauls.
Is it an English/Prem thing? It was the same with the England U20 team, especially against the SA team in the semi-final. SA knew this and time and time again just mauled with great success. In the U20 final both teams mauled, but the French team looked abrasive and urgent, whereas the English looked soft because they were taking time to set up properly and get comfortable. It was like the English U20 had to complete exactly the set up for mauling they had trained and practised, regardless of reacting to what the opposition what actually offering you as resistance.
 
The big issue with mauls is how the players seem completely oblivious to when it is rotating. In the U20 against France we had our own players mauling the French towards our own line as they were completely unaware they had turned right round!

RFU also said Jones has until the end of the AI's to turn things around but also says he has their full backing... I think if he loses the AI's it will be a very expensive leave and once again the RFU displaying complete incompetence in how they negotiate contracts. That will be the 2nd expensive early termination in almost as many years. When will they learn to put in a proper performance based clause allowing for early termination in the event of very poor results?
 
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...drawn-up-years-ago-has-cost-england-d30ggw20d

It might surprise you to learn that English rugby did have central contracts once upon a time.

Just before professionalism arrived in 1995, there were 35 to 40 of them drawn up by the late Don Rutherford, then the RFU’s technical director. Rutherford could see what was coming and was ready to do what was undoubtedly best for the game.

Unfortunately, others at the RFU did not share his vision, unbelievably declaring a one-year moratorium when the game went “open” in 1995, basically hoping that professionalism would disappear as a bad idea, and so those contracts never saw the light of day.

It beggars belief really, looking back. You do wonder what might have happened to English rugby had the obvious course of action been taken. There might well have been more than the one World Cup won, and you might not have had the curious scenario of a World Cup-winning coach walking away because he wanted more access to his players.

This little snippet of information about central contracts was recently revealed by Rob Andrew in his book, Rugby: The Game of my Life.

“A bunch of these documents were sitting in his [Rutherford’s] bottom drawer,” wrote Andrew. “By choosing to fudge the issue the senior figures at Twickenham left them exposed to forces that would weaken their authority and leave themselves at the mercy of a new breed of sporting entrepreneur.

“Alerted to the new opportunities created by the sanctioning of an ‘open’ game, the money men came marching over the hill.”

Boy, don’t we know it. They are still marching. And, in some cases, shouting and throwing their weight around. You cannot deny the huge good many of these money men have brought to English rugby and the Aviva Premiership, which is a thriving competition, even if the level of debt is too often rather conveniently overlooked.

And while the likes of New Zealand and Ireland have central contracts, with Wales moving that way with their dual contracts, England have a collaboration called the professional game agreement (PGA), which is supposed to satisfy all parties.

When things are going swimmingly at international level, it does seem satisfying enough. When the results start to go awry, as they have this season, then the cracks start to appear.

The events of the last few week or so, with Eddie Jones, the England head coach, and Bath’s Bruce Craig trading unseemly verbal blows over the way Jones treats his England players at training, on top of the England team looking jaded in three defeats during the NatWest Six Nations Championship, have opened up cracks not seen in public for some considerable time.

“We’ve hit a roadblock,” admitted Mark McCafferty, the chief executive of Premiership Rugby. “We’ve got to see how significant that roadblock is and find a way around it.”

Central contracts are apparently not an option at the moment, with Stephen Brown, the RFU chief executive, already admitting that they cannot happen until 2024 and the end of the current PGA at the very earliest.

“We have had this agreement running for 18 months and is the second eight-year cycle and it has been working extremely well,” said Brown. “You need to be very careful to make any changes if you could. We have an agreement that has built the strongest relationship with the clubs in recent years and there is great collaboration there, where both club and country work together. We want the players and clubs to do well and need the country to do well and it might be a knee-jerk if you were to try a different solution.

“People talk about central contracts in very binary terms but what we have in reality is a hybrid with an element of central contract when they come into camp with England. We need to let this agreement play out to the World Cup and that is what it is set up to do and it continues for another four years. The World Cup will be a very good test of its success.”

Ah, that’s OK, then. We’ll wait for another cock-up at the World Cup and then re-assess.

Of course, access to the England players is just but one factor at play here in a shemozzle of scheduling and priorities that is tearing the game apart, as player welfare stands on the sidelines screaming its head off but still not getting the attention it deserves.

Comparisons between English and Irish players have been made before, but it is worth revisiting the statistics for minutes played by Owen Farrell and Jonathan Sexton this season, with thanks to Russ Petty, the statistician, for his help on this.

Throughout the season, Sexton played 1210 minutes of rugby, while Farrell played 2091 minutes. That illustrates neatly enough the difference between a player on a central contract and one who is not, but it is the breakdown of those minutes that is even more interesting.

The number of Test minutes is similar, Sexton 498 and Farrell 480. In Europe, Farrell played 558 to Sexton’s 400. But what about the disparity in the domestic leagues? Farrell played 1053 minutes in the Premiership and Sexton just 312 in the Guinness Pro14. That is jaw-dropping. I am a huge fan of Farrell’s but I know which player had the better season. Sexton looked the best fly half in the world by the end of it.

Goodness knows how central contracts could be introduced in England, but you can be sure the players would want them. It is not just the physical benefits either. Mentally they would be refreshed. That is just as important. Talk to England cricketers about how the central contract system has helped and that will be high on their list of attractions, despite irate county supporters often not understanding why England players are not playing for their team.

As Ireland’s Rory Best says: “Weekends off every now and again just give you a little bit of a freshen up — mentally as much as anything. Otherwise you might go week on week-on-week without really differentiating between big games and other games.”

Billy Vunipola has admitted he would take a pay cut to play less. Alex Corbisiero, the former England prop, has been campaigning for central contracts for some time. The chief executive of the Rugby Players’ Association, Damian Hopley, has mentioned them too.

England’s recent poor form has showed the weaknesses of the professional game agreement


“In all these discussions around ring-fencing and season structure, you have to throw central contracts in there as well,” Hopley told the Telegraph. “It is a huge taboo within English rugby and this is not to decry what the English clubs have done because without their investment the game would be decimated. When you look at the Irish and New Zealand models you have to say that it is working at international level so is that the answer? It may not be but you need to have these discussions in a mature and enlightened way rather than an arms-folded, let’s have a fight manner.”

Indeed. And then you hear McCafferty talking about the British & Irish Lions in such an aggressive manner. It is a mess.

So the final words to Andrew. “I don’t believe we will ever see a cricket-style central contract system in English rugby,” he says. “Does it matter? Not really, provided the relationship between the governing body and the Premiership remains strong enough to deliver the behaviours the RFU wants from its clubs. The problem — and we are talking about a problem of mighty proportions — will come not when the relationship frays [it is never unfrayed, truth be told] but when it snaps. The bottom line is this: the interests of the RFU and the interests of the clubs are not aligned, no matter how much public relations spin is put on it. The only alignment is through the chequebook, and that alone is never the basis for a lasting marriage.”

Are we near snapping time?
Click to expand...
 
Mumbles119 said:
It was like the English U20 had to complete exactly the set up for mauling they had trained and practised, regardless of reacting to what the opposition what actually offering you as resistance.
Click to expand...

And there in a nutshell....

Anyone got access to Brian Moore's Torygraph article "If forwards coach Steve Borthwick is not up to it England must get someone else"? Haven't read it yet, but suspect I'll agree wholeheartedly.
 
So, who’s going to start 10 come Nov?

My autumn 15 without injury.

Genge / Marler
George / LCD
Cole / Sinckler
Launchbury
Itoje
Shields / Underhill
Curry
Billy

it’s going to be Youngs, but hoping for someone else
Cipriani
May
Farrell
Joseph / Tuilagi
Watson
Daly
 

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