[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[welshglory]

Elliot daley?

 

[Peat]

But collectively, all of the 12s will find it more difficult against international opposition. I don't necessarily think that Eastmond will hold his own in defence on the international stage, I just don't think there's enough evidence to discount Eastmond presently. He has shown himself to be perfectly adequate at Premiership level - we should not overturn months of evidence that he is a competent defender on the basis of one match in a losing team. Especially just by quoting weights. When he comes back to form, I'd like to see another run out for him.

I am still in favour of Twelvetrees overall, although I am very open at this stage to many players - Eastmond, Barritt, Burrell, Allen, Hill, Devoto etc.

I think there's also a case for bludgeon/rapier by moving Tuilagi inwards. We may have to accept that England do not have the distributing/playmking skills to make any use of a distributor/playmaker axis at 10-12. Fofana finds plenty of gaps from 12. Perhaps Tuilagi can hit the same gaps (except with more power), and we can use pace out wide (which we certainly do have). I'm just not sure who the rapier would be. I thought Joseph would be it for a long time; it's a shame he has gone a whole load of nowhere.

Yes, they will find it more difficult, but not all of them will find it the same level of step up. Eastmond gives away a huge edge in physicality at international level, a lot more than happens at Premiership level, and it is a worry whether he can handle it. I'm not worried about him not the tackles, I'm worried about him not making them on the advantage line and I'm worried about him not preventing the offload.

And we do not have months of evidence that Eastmond is a competent international defender. I'd say,if we discount the Argentina tour as rugby in easy mode, we have one good game and one bad game.

Also, assuming Farrell as 10, there should be a distributor at 12. I would only consider moving Tuilagi in should some serious quality arise at 13.

 

[TheSaffycen]

As WelshGlory said have Daly there. Tuilagi at 12 with Daly 13 as the creative player also having the creative player at 13 gives our wingers a chance.

 

[Peat]

I'm a big Daly fan, but he wants to go up a whole 'nother level before I'd consider displacing Tuilagi for him, and he needs to sort his defence too.

 

[welshglory]

I think you need someone at 12 alongside Tuilagi who's assertive. Twelvetrees to me has good skills but he's way too hesitant most of the time and he's not actually that good to be honest.

I think there is definitely merit in trying or at least experimenting with Farrell at 12, which is the position he played until he was pushed into 10 for club because of injuries. I heard that distribution and vision was a major strength of his when he was playing there as well.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think there is definitely merit in trying or at least experimenting with Farrell at 12, which is the position he played until he was pushed into 10 for club because of injuries. I heard that distribution and vision was a major strength of his when he was playing there as well.

Other way round, actually.
He only played 12 when there was another 10 that they wanted to play (i.e. with Ford at u20s, pairing him with Hougaard/Hodgson when Barritt was injured). He wasn't very good at 12, either.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I really do not understand the calls for Farrell to play 12 - he's basically Brad Barritt with less of the athletic ability, a slight (but significant) downgrade in defensive ability and an added discipline problem.

Maybe - maybe - he's a better distributor from hand and foot, from playing at 10 for the last two years... but I think it's probably marginal.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I think there is definitely merit in trying or at least experimenting with Farrell at 12, which is the position he played until he was pushed into 10 for club because of injuries. I heard that distribution and vision was a major strength of his when he was playing there as well.

I've never liked when Farrell has moved into the centres. When Lancaster first took over and we had Hodgson-Farrell-Barritt we where bloody dire in attack. Maybe he would be better now because he does take the ball to the line and makes these breaks, Cips-Farrell-Tuilagi could be interesting but i doubt we will see it.

 

[goodNumber10]

Farrell played his first few games for England at 12 IIRC (or at least when Hodgson came on), he's fine there but he's not international class - he's a world class 10 why play him elsewhere?

Daley would make a good 12, he's got the footwork and used to play 10, he's also got a huge boot. He'd probably be less exposed at 12 than 15 and has the size to play there as well.

He just needs to stop poncing about and settle on one position.

Anyway........

 

[ratsapprentice]

He just needs to stop poncing about and settle on one position.

13.

This season, with Leiua at 12 and Miller at 15.

 

[goodNumber10]

yeah i know.

I still think he'd be a better 12, 13 is probably a more exposing position than 15 in defence and i don't rate his defence at 15 at all, so him being at 13 doesn't fill me with confidence that WASPS will have a watertight defence.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I prefer the bosh at 12 and the razor at 13 - with both able to distribute - so the thought of the set-up I mentioned above has me very excited.

 

[Peat]

Other way round, actually.
He only played 12 when there was another 10 that they wanted to play (i.e. with Ford at u20s, pairing him with Hougaard/Hodgson when Barritt was injured). He wasn't very good at 12, either.

He was a 12 coming through the youth ranks and got shoehorned into 10 when Sarries ran out of choices due to injury and it ended up sticking because they were unimaginative sods happy to have a kicker/tackler only there...

Which is probably just as well for him, as its difficult to imagine him having got anywhere at 12.

Farrell played his first few games for England at 12 IIRC (or at least when Hodgson came on), he's fine there but he's not international class - he's a world class 10 why play him elsewhere?

:mellow:

Daley would make a good 12, he's got the footwork and used to play 10, he's also got a huge boot. He'd probably be less exposed at 12 than 15 and has the size to play there as well.

He just needs to stop poncing about and settle on one position.

Anyway........

He'd be a bit willowy for a modern 12. He's a bit willowy for a modern centre altogether really, which is why I was happy with the idea of him at 15, but that's clearly not happening anymore.

Agreed that he needs to nail down a position.

Tbh... we're got a generation of relatively averaged sized outside centres, all with real gas, nice footwork, bit of football... Daly, Trinder, Joseph, Lowe (no particular order)... and, tbh, I see them all becoming Matthew Taits i.e. wasted potential. Really hope I'm wrong.

 

[goodNumber10]

I prefer the bosh at 12 and the razor at 13 - with both able to distribute - so the thought of the set-up I mentioned above has me very excited.

I prefer it the other way around, as a flyhalf i preferred having a ball player outside me so if i was under pressure the decision making could drift out one channel and i could just distribute.

Mind you I loved playing 13, if you had a player at 10 with a decent pass that you could drift on..... it's an amazing position, just change your line late and drift.

Nothing to stop them interchanging or playing left and right to be honest.

 

[j-dawg]

Jesus wept!



of course it's not an exact science, but it's highly likely that given an even skill set the bigger heavier guy will win out - certainly in defence or in collision management - which is what this entire discussion is about.

Rugby is a game of momentum, attackers trying to gain it, defenders trying to stop it, if a defender consistently lets the opposition gain momentum then he is ineffective - certainly at elite level. Smaller guys will the majority of the time give the opposition team momentum, that's just a fact of the game. You can all claim it doesn't matter but it does.

Here is a question, who would you rather have defending in a one on one against Nonu 5 out form the line? Tuilagi or Eastmond, and why?

Tuilagi, because he is an aggressive defender. But then you can put up any number of matchups to prove a point. Tuilagi or Wilko? Tuilagi or Neil Back?

 

[Aedaphon]

13.

This season, with Leiua at 12 and Miller at 15.

I'm surprised Daly still hasn't had a look into the EPS. The man really has a ton of class and pace to burn. He looked a cut above the rest even when he was playing for the BaaBaas last year.

Anyway, if I'm allowed to fantasise about centre partnerships (and any talk of Daly is probably that for now) - I'd love to see Burrell-Daly.

Still... I was fantasising about cipriani coming back 2 years ago so nothing's impossible.

 

[Maverick1987]

When I have watched the replays it looks to me like Tuilagi is out of position a lot in the wide channel . Probably due to no bugger trusting Ashton to make a tackle tbh . Would the same have happened if Nowell or Foden took Ashton's place ? (That's right I'm blaming Ashton ! Get back to writing your book on your 1 decent thing in international rugby you scrote)

 

[TheSaffycen]

Would the same have happened if Nowell or Foden took Ashton's place ? (That's right I'm blaming Ashton ! Get back to writing your book on your 1 decent thing in international rugby you scrote)

The gap between the centres was the same when Tuilagi was next to Yarde, but it might have been in Tuilagi's mind when defending next to Ashton.

 

[goodNumber10]

When I have watched the replays it looks to me like Tuilagi is out of position a lot in the wide channel .

I said this during the game and got told I was wrong to be defending Ashton and that he was the person at fault.

I think we need to stop trying to dissect the defence we all know it was a mess and nothing will change that now.

It's also a discredit to the AB's who were utterly brilliant in attack and just put it down to a very bad day at the office and being outplayed from 1-15 by a better team.

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/feat...mond-will-show-hes-the-right-fit-for-england/