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[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

ratsapprentice

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Kyle does the hold up tackle partly because when he first played at IC Banahan was outside him and would come in and they would complete a choke tackle.
It's a habit he picked up then.
 

goodNumber10

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Burgess will have no issue with tackling in Union seeing as League tackling is the same since they banned the shoulder charge.
I know, but i'm not talking about shoulder charges. i still think he hits very high and very loose - and i think he's more likely to get pinged in Union than league for it.

I mean lets be honest it's an issue for many Union players as well.
 

ragerancher

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I'm worried we will end up going the way of Wales, massive players playing smash rugby with technique and creativity going out of the window in favour of front up power play.
 

welshglory

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Rugby is all about the gainline at the end of the day, especially with modern defences.
If you've got massive players who can hit up and get you over the gainline and playing on the front foot like Wales (when our pack is up to par) and South Africa then fair enough.
If you've got the players to do both like the Allblacks do then fair enough.
If you've got players who are creative and skillfull enough to consistently get you moving forwards and through gaps if you've got an even footing with the pack like Australia and Ireland (who are getting there) then fair enough.
If you're neither here nor there like England then you have to find something that works for you and stick with it. Do you have the players to play the beautiful, dynamic style most of your fans want to see? I don't think so to be honest, Twelvetrees and Eastmond are simply not good enough. I think Lancaster's dream to have a 2nd 5 8 style player will soon fade away and he will choose Burrell, Burgess or Tuilagi.
 

welshglory

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There's something really special about Elliot Daly though... watch this space
Trinder and Joseph meh... Top class club players.
 

goodNumber10

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Rugby is all about the gainline at the end of the day, especially with modern defences.
If you've got massive players who can hit up and get you over the gainline and playing on the front foot like Wales (when our pack is up to par) and South Africa then fair enough.
If you've got the players to do both like the Allblacks do then fair enough.
If you've got players who are creative and skillfull enough to consistently get you moving forwards and through gaps if you've got an even footing with the pack like Australia and Ireland (who are getting there) then fair enough.
If you're neither here nor there like England then you have to find something that works for you and stick with it. Do you have the players to play the beautiful, dynamic style most of your fans want to see? I don't think so to be honest, Twelvetrees and Eastmond are simply not good enough. I think Lancaster's dream to have a 2nd 5 8 style player will soon fade away and he will choose Burrell, Burgess or Tuilagi.
to be fair Wales don't really have the ball carriers to play that front foot game anymore, or at least all the time, on occasion they'll hit their straps - England in 2013, and SA last month for example but most teams know that if they nullify it then they have no secondary process to get past the tackle line - which if your gainline game is faltering is where you have to go.

That's where New Zealand play, they don't' worry about the gain line so much, they play the tackle line first in the understanding that if they beat that they'll get to the gain line anyway or at the least move the opposition around.

England are heading to to the tackle line game but are struggling to get there as their decision making is poor. that's why the 2nd five is so important to Lancaster, Farrell & Catt as they want to lose the pod system and play the tramlines.
 

welshglory

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True when Roberts and/or North are missing we're stuffed.
I think we'll have to evolve our style because the players who are coming through are more skill and speed based.
Corry Allen, Ashley Beck, Scott Williams, Jack Dixon, Steve Shingler.

Interesting how midfield options and selections are so important in shaping attack.
 

TRF_Olyy

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I'm worried we will end up going the way of Wales, massive players playing smash rugby with technique and creativity going out of the window in favour of front up power play.
Why? Because Bath signed Burgess?
Even they've said they want him in the back row.
England are picking guys like Brown, May, Nowell, Eastmond, trying to pick Wade and are looking at Watson.
Since the days of Banahan we've only really selected Manu as out and out bosh, in the backs (and arguably used Burrell in that role too).
 

living sacrifice

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Why? Because Bath signed Burgess?
Even they've said they want him in the back row.
England are picking guys like Brown, May, Nowell, Eastmond, trying to pick Wade and are looking at Watson.
Since the days of Banahan we've only really selected Manu as out and out bosh, in the backs (and arguably used Burrell in that role too).
And if anyone watches the saints Burrell is hardly a smash it up the middle player. He's got a great passes and kicking game as well as his size!

England have some skilful players it's the game plan and them playing together that seems missing really
 

Big Ewis

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I'm worried we will end up going the way of Wales, massive players playing smash rugby with technique and creativity going out of the window in favour of front up power play.
:lol: here we go again but here I couldn't hold myself: right, because England have been such a sight to behold on attack with their technique and creativity. Such a shame they might sacrifice it all, all that aesthetically orgasmic wonder.
By the way, really appreciating the coming to sense about mass right there all of a sudden. That bizarre, bizarre notion that tons of muscle in Rugby are somehow primordial (unless you're the All-Blacks).

Hopefully for England that Burgess fella translates into something worthy. His power could serve either at flanker or center as everybody's saying. I don't know that he'll make a good flanker as that requires experience; fetching in rucks, clean tackling, clearing out rucks...etc....which I don't think he has playing League, dunno...; whereas playing center seems a lot more adapted to his raw, present ability. He can run, tackle hard, and carries strong. Some of the most popular centers today don't pass very well or all that often; in fact Bastareaud seems to be religiously against passing as a holy principle, but is still an enormous weapon on attack (not to mention on defense); but their power and net weight stat alone are all that's needed. Let the other center pass, or not...I can see Burgess and Tuilagi together, if they can make a few passes, just a few, not asking them to be Conrad Smith/Fofana, that's well enough. Set the backline up so your gameplan doesn't rely on or requires lots of ball movement at midfield...these guys will create enough opportunities by themselves by MASSing over the opposing defense that it's totally worth it to sacrifice a little bit of passing.
 

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A distributing 12 is quite clearly a major part of Lancaster's plans at the moment. England may not play champagne rugby all day every day (although there's been some very slick pieces of work that have gone relatively unappreciated and unnoticed) but there is a clear and obvious plan to use the width of the pitch when attacking and that requires a passing centre, and that's not going to be 13 with Tuilagi around. Farrell seems to work a lot better for a distributing 12 to help him as well.

Twelvetrees and Eastmond have issues but so do most players. It's a big probability that one of them will be starting England's next match and that England will be better for it.
 

ratsapprentice

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Couldn't agree more, Peat - he's been pretty clear that it's a vital part of his plan.
 

Patchey

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A distributing 12 is quite clearly a major part of Lancaster's plans at the moment. England may not play champagne rugby all day every day (although there's been some very slick pieces of work that have gone relatively unappreciated and unnoticed) but there is a clear and obvious plan to use the width of the pitch when attacking and that requires a passing centre, and that's not going to be 13 with Tuilagi around. Farrell seems to work a lot better for a distributing 12 to help him as well.

Twelvetrees and Eastmond have issues but so do most players. It's a big probability that one of them will be starting England's next match and that England will be better for it.
Agreed. Twelvetrees and/or Eastmond are key as distributors and we play better with them.

Burgess is a great prospect to play somewhere but not at 12.
 

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move Tuilagi to 12, put Burgess in at 13. Go "A Clockwork Orange" on Tuilagi and sit his big azz down, shackle him, force his eyes open with a nightmarish mechanical device and play him this clip on a 5-hour loop every day (feed protein+sugar every hour to keep focus and bloodsugar pumping):

 
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Tigs Man

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Please Manu can do it now he did it against the AB, England just don't want him to do that because otherwise they would win every game by 20 or so points.
 

TheSaffycen

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We could just try Cipriani-Burgess-Tuilagi ? Imagine them 2 running at the gainline
 

Big Ewis

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Please Manu can do it now he did it against the AB, England just don't want him to do that because otherwise they would win every game by 20 or so points.
fair point.
 

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Would prefer Bath brought through Devoto, in addition to Eastmond, at 12. Burgess at 13 for me.
 

kesh

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The challenge will be learning the different way defenses are structured in Union IMO.

Structured? You're been ironic? Getting back to the ref, that was the only none-League Union structure. Even that was over looked mostly along with passing the backwards.
 
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