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[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand

I expect we will see something along the lines of:
1. Woodcock, 2. Coles, 3. O Franks, 4. Retallick, 5. Whitelock, 6. Messam, 7. McCaw, 8. Read, 9. A Smith, 10. Cruden, 11. Savea, 12. Nonu, 13. C Smith, 14. B Smith, 15. Dagg
16. Mealamu, 17. Crockett, 18. Faumuina, 19. Luatua/Romano, 20. Cane/Luatua, 21. Kerr-Barlow, 22. Barrett, 23. Piutau

oooohh...right, that XV...it's been so long I'd sort of forgotten it was that impressive on paper.
Would love to see Kaino back in a black jersey...
What's the situation with Dan Carter, is he really on a sabbatical ? still injured ?...

It's going to be very telling and awesome to watch the AB pack go up against the English one. Those two second rows must be 2 of the Top 3 in the world or so atm, and England have a nice third row but the AB ain't too shabby there either...

Sorry if this is just such a rudimentary question but as an outsider could I ask what happens to McCaw in the foreseeable future ? The guy still is good, but slower, not as efficient as before. He almost seems lucky to still appear on a NZ starting XV. Who does NZ have in store behind him ? Will he play the 2015 RWC for sure ?
 
What's the situation with Dan Carter, is he really on a sabbatical ? still injured ?...
He's on a sabbatical for the whole super rugby season so I think he misses the June test as well.
McCaw in the foreseeable future ? The guy still is good, but slower, not as efficient as before
He is injured at the moment, broken thumb, but too me he was not as good as he was about a 2 years ago. Against chiefs he missed a tackle on Fruean which he would have made a couple years ago and he did the same against the Blues for another try. Cane and Todd are the two main contenders with Ardie Savea also in the mix. I would have Todd personally because Cane is injured at the moment so he can't really put his hand up for a place.
 
I love how the AB just give sabbaticals to some of their main guys...like, no problem, they've got it all covered.

Yeah no doubt McCaw isn't as efficient. He's like BOD. He's sort of there because he's been there for a century and the seat just has his butt-shape carved in hard, but at the same time if he really was no good at all anymore he'd be replaced. In betw. these two.
He must really be seen as a HERO at this point over there...

I saw a segment on the news a couple of days ago where they showed how the NZ prime minister was passing a referendum about whether to keep their current flag or change it and not keep the Union Jack because it mirrored their colonial past. They showed tweets of various proposals, some were jokes, some real attempts. Amongst the funny ones, one guy posted a patchwork of a few NZ heroes. There were like 5 faces, and one of em was Richie McCaw. Like, humorous or not, the point is he seems to be that predominantly in the collective imaginations of the kiwis. He's on their Mount Rushmore it seems.
 
That's the thing rugby is more than sport in New Zealand. It is New Zealand, it's their culture they use it as a national identity so people like McCaw are probably held in such high esteem and he is the role model of 1000's of New Zealanders. Of course with age you will gradually get slower and less effective but he is still in the top 6 opensides in the world and he will break the record number of caps by the end of the world cup.
 
I think with the balance of the 1st choice All Black back row, McCaw now has to do a lot of the tight work, with Messam, as well as his core 7 role. Read is allowed to roam wider and play a looser role. With Luatua at 6, Read takes up Messam's tighter role with McCaw and Luatua plays the looser back row role, who is able to range out wide. McCaw's breakdown work and pushing up in the scrum is still superior to Cane's, not to mention his vast experience and leadership.

Interesting opinion from Andrew Mehrtens on the NZ Stuff website, who thinks McCaw is trying to do too much of everything and not concentrating on his core roles as a 7.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/9862520/Mehrtens-McCaw-must-do-less-not-more
 
He's on a sabbatical for the whole super rugby season so I think he misses the June test as well.

He is injured at the moment, broken thumb, but too me he was not as good as he was about a 2 years ago. Against chiefs he missed a tackle on Fruean which he would have made a couple years ago and he did the same against the Blues for another try. Cane and Todd are the two main contenders with Ardie Savea also in the mix. I would have Todd personally because Cane is injured at the moment so he can't really put his hand up for a place.

Carter will miss the June Internationals as you say, but he is not quite out for the entire Super Rugby season. He is expected back for the Crusaders in early July, which will hopefully give him a few games of rugby before the Rugby Championship (which starts mid August).

Cane is back from injury now (he started for the Chiefs last week against the Force), and is certainly seen as the next in line for the 7 jersey behind McCaw. The interesting thing about Cane is that he has never really shone that much at Super Rugby level, but has always impressed at test level (despite the fact he is still very young). His style of play just seems to suit test rugby better than Super Rugby. He has many of the same attributes that McCaw has - he is a big physical 7, is a strong ball runner, makes huge numbers of tackles, runs excellent support lines, and never seems to slow down. His ball handling still lets him down at Super Rugby level, and he still needs to improve at the breakdown, but 'pilfering' ability is no longer the main thing the AB's selectors want from their 7.

Matt Todd is next in line after Cane, and I've been impressed with the way his game has evolved over the last couple of years. Originally he was perhaps a bit one dimensional - he was outstanding at the breakdown, but the rest of his game needed work. His breakdown work is perhaps less noticeable these days but his ball running has improved immensely, and he is certainly a more physical player than he has been in the past. Ardie Savea is one for the future and brings a completely different dimension to the 7 jersey with his freakish athleticism, but he still lacks the physicality required at Super Rugby level, let alone test level (though I have no doubt this will come once his body matures). I still believe the best 7 in Super Rugby for the last 3 years has been Luke Braid, but for some reason the AB's selectors don't seem to be a fan on him. He is a deceptively powerful ball runner, offloads as well as any loose-forward, makes plenty of tackles, and is handy at the breakdown. Perhaps the only things that counts against him is that he isn't really a lineout option, but with the likes of Messam, Luatua, and Read this shouldn't be a major issue.

Onto McCaw himself. To be honest I am a bit worried about McCaw. There is no doubt that his age (and the punishment he has taken in 12+ years of professional rugby) is taking its tool. He doesn't have the pace he once had, and because of this he is turning up to breakdowns a fraction of a second latter than previously. This fraction of a second can make all the difference. He is still capable of slowing down opposition ball as well as any in world rugby, however he seldom is able to produce the turnovers that were once his trademark, but he he still gets heavily penalized. These days he is a powerful ball ball runner, he is still a excellent defender (though again perhaps he lack of pace is starting to effect this aspect of his play too), and his leadership and experience in 2nd to none on the international stage. He tends to take some time to build into a season these days so his current thumb injury is a worry. He is still probably our best option at 7 at the current time, but he is certainly nearing the end of his career, and I'm not certain whether his still the best option at 7 in a years time (or even by the end of this year)...

I think with the balance of the 1st choice All Black back row, McCaw now has to do a lot of the tight work, with Messam, as well as his core 7 role. Read is allowed to roam wider and play a looser role. With Luatua at 6, Read takes up Messam's tighter role with McCaw and Luatua plays the looser back row role, who is able to range out wide. McCaw's breakdown work and pushing up in the scrum is still superior to Cane's, not to mention his vast experience and leadership.

Interesting opinion from Andrew Mehrtens on the NZ Stuff website, who thinks McCaw is trying to do too much of everything and not concentrating on his core roles as a 7.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/9862520/Mehrtens-McCaw-must-do-less-not-more

I think that's a very good summary of what the AB's want from their 7, and is the main reason I don't see Ardie Savea featuring in black anytime soon (as he plays a very different style).

how about James Lowe as a possible Bolter? He looked pretty tasty when I watched the recent Chiefs games.

Lowe has impressed in his brief appearances, but I would say he is very unlikely to feature. He had a breakthrough season with Tasman during the ITM Cup, and has hasn't looked out of place at the Chiefs. He seems to have lost a lot of weight recently, and because of that seems a lot quicker. The challenge for him will be establishing himself in the Chiefs lineup first and foremost, as the Chiefs have an abundance of outside back talent. Unfortunately he is currently injured (out for 6 weeks with a knee injury), so that will make that a lot harder! The AB's have plenty of depth in the outside backs so they aren't really looking for a wing at the moment, but he has certainly made a promising start to his Chiefs career.
 
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Onto McCaw himself. To be honest I am a bit worried about McCaw. There is no doubt that his age (and the punishment he has taken in 12+ years of professional rugby) is taking its tool. He doesn't have the pace he once had, and because of this he is turning up to breakdowns a fraction of a second latter than previously. This fraction of a second can make all the difference. He is still capable of slowing down opposition ball as well as any in world rugby, however he seldom is able to produce the turnovers that were once his trademark, but he he still gets heavily penalized. These days he is a powerful ball ball runner, he is still a excellent defender (though again perhaps he lack of pace is starting to effect this aspect of his play too), and his leadership and experience in 2nd to none on the international stage. He tends to take some time to build into a season these days so his current thumb injury is a worry. He is still probably our best option at 7 at the current time, but he is certainly nearing the end of his career, and I'm not certain whether his still the best option at 7 in a years time (or even by the end of this year)...

Very interesting summary Darwin.

Back to your point on McCaw from the games I saw him play for the All Blacks last year there's no doubt he's lost a half yard of pace and this has affected his trademark pilfering. But the game has changed and I think all players are now expected to pilfer, when they get the chance at the breakdown. This does not seem to be as much of a problem anymore.

I think in this regard Mehrtens has a point that McCaw should be compared to his fellow 7s in the game and not to his high standards of the past when he was at his peak; in this case the man he will face this June; Robshaw. Here in England we've had countless discussions that Robshaw is not a true 7 and he's not; but these discussions have quietened these last 6 months as he's proven his captaincy and his work rate was never in doubt. But Robshaw still does not have great pace for a flanker and he lets the likes of Dan Cole, Launchbury and Wood make up for his breakdown work, particularly pilfering; much preferring to be second receiver for the ball.

My point is that as long as the eroded skills McCaw appears to have lost are made up elsewhere in the pack, but he maintains his work rate, then it's not as much of a problem.
 
Onto McCaw himself. To be honest I am a bit worried about McCaw. There is no doubt that his age (and the punishment he has taken in 12+ years of professional rugby) is taking its tool. He doesn't have the pace he once had, and because of this he is turning up to breakdowns a fraction of a second latter than previously. This fraction of a second can make all the difference. He is still capable of slowing down opposition ball as well as any in world rugby, however he seldom is able to produce the turnovers that were once his trademark, but he he still gets heavily penalized. These days he is a powerful ball ball runner, he is still a excellent defender (though again perhaps he lack of pace is starting to effect this aspect of his play too), and his leadership and experience in 2nd to none on the international stage. He tends to take some time to build into a season these days so his current thumb injury is a worry. He is still probably our best option at 7 at the current time, but he is certainly nearing the end of his career, and I'm not certain whether his still the best option at 7 in a years time (or even by the end of this year)...

I said this on Rugby365 and the kiwis on there were ready to lynch me, but i've always had a nagging suscpicion Richie would have been even BETTER as a number 6. NZ have played him at 8 but i can't recall him ever playing 6 and if you coupled him with someone like Todd or Cane it could be pretty spectacular.

Probably to late in the day to try that experiement, but i'd love to ahve seen it.
 
Very interesting summary Darwin.

Back to your point on McCaw from the games I saw him play for the All Blacks last year there's no doubt he's lost a half yard of pace and this has affected his trademark pilfering. But the game has changed and I think all players are now expected to pilfer, when they get the chance at the breakdown. This does not seem to be as much of a problem anymore.

I think in this regard Mehrtens has a point that McCaw should be compared to his fellow 7s in the game and not to his high standards of the past when he was at his peak; in this case the man he will face this June; Robshaw. Here in England we've had countless discussions that Robshaw is not a true 7 and he's not; but these discussions have quietened these last 6 months as he's proven his captaincy and his work rate was never in doubt. But Robshaw still does not have great pace for a flanker and he lets the likes of Dan Cole, Launchbury and Wood make up for his breakdown work, particularly pilfering; much preferring to be second receiver for the ball.

My point is that as long as the eroded skills McCaw appears to have lost are made up elsewhere in the pack, but he maintains his work rate, then it's not as much of a problem.

I think this is a fair point. The issue I have with McCaw is not that he isn't getting many turnovers. It is the fact that he is still trying to get turnovers even when he is not position to get them. He seems to be getting penalized as much these days as he ever has, but we aren't getting the turnovers to compensate for it. McCaw is a smart player so hopefully he will adapt as we can't afford to have him continue to concede 2-3 penalties a game for no reason...
 
I think this is a fair point. The issue I have with McCaw is not that he isn't getting many turnovers. It is the fact that he is still trying to get turnovers even when he is not position to get them. He seems to be getting penalized as much these days as he ever has, but we aren't getting the turnovers to compensate for it. McCaw is a smart player so hopefully he will adapt as we can't afford to have him continue to concede 2-3 penalties a game for no reason...

Is he conceeding 2-3 penalties a game?

I don't recall him conceeding a large amount on the EOYT, and he's only played a couple fo games in a poor 'saders team where he is pushing the envelope without the support to do so... *just checked his stats, he's conceeded 1 penalty this Super xv
 
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Is he conceeding 2-3 penalties a game?

I don't recall him conceeding a large amount on the EOYT, and he's only played a couple fo games in a poor 'saders team where he is pushing the envelope without the support to do so... *just checked his stats, he's conceeded 1 penalty this Super xv

He didn't concede any penalties against England, but conceded 2 in every other match during the end of year tour (so perhaps 2-3 per match was a slight exaggeration). He was penalized at a similar rate during the Rugby Championship. He has only conceded 1 penalty while playing for the Crusaders this season, but has only played 1 1/2 games so far this season so it is not exactly a large sample size.

Don't get me wrong I would be happy if he was conceding a couple of penalties a match if he was making a few turnovers (as that is not too many penalties). But many of the penalties he conceded last season were unnecessary, and a result of him pushing for a turnover when it wasn't on....
 
I've never been convinced when people say that McCaw's ball running has become a strong aspect of his game. He is used more often now - but he isn't particularly amazing at driving past the advantage line (in this is would say Luke Braid and Sam Cane were both better). Matt Todd easily averages the most tackles of any 7 in New Zealand as he's an absolute machine, and is probably the best at getting turnovers.

I'm not entirely convinced when people say Savea doesn't have the physicality yet. I think because he is young and only just 100kgs that it's tempting to assume it, but he just seems like a freak. The number of times you watch him wriggle past defenders to make it past the advantage line when he's on the back foot. His turnover work is also very good. Admittedly I think an additional 5kgs wouldn't hurt his game - but I think he gets perhaps overly criticized for phisicality because he looks like an inside back.

Either way I agree McCaw hasn't looked amazing lately and have also been worried. During the start of 2012 though - if people remember his matches against Ireland? He dropped balls like they were covered with soap and on fire. He did improve as the season continued. I'll be suprised if he isn't starting come 2015. I think his experience and leadership will just shine through.

I said this on Rugby365 and the kiwis on there were ready to lynch me, but i've always had a nagging suscpicion Richie would have been even BETTER as a number 6. NZ have played him at 8 but i can't recall him ever playing 6 and if you coupled him with someone like Todd or Cane it could be pretty spectacular.

Probably to late in the day to try that experiement, but i'd love to ahve seen it.

I think there were a lot of New Zealander's who would have liked to have seen McCaw move to blindside around 2012, particularly as Sam Cane was playing some great rugby. Even now I'd like to see it, if it meant he replaced Messam. However since Kaino returned I'm now hoping he gets back his form and replaces Messam..
 
I've never been convinced when people say that McCaw's ball running has become a strong aspect of his game. He is used more often now - but he isn't particularly amazing at driving past the advantage line (in this is would say Luke Braid and Sam Cane were both better). Matt Todd easily averages the most tackles of any 7 in New Zealand as he's an absolute machine, and is probably the best at getting turnovers.

While McCaw's ball running isn't at the same level as someone like Luke Braid I do think he has improved this aspect of his game noticeably over the last few years. I don't think it was as prominent last season, but in 2012 he made some real storming runs with ball in hand. Obviously it isn't his primary attribute, but he can be pretty handy with ball in hand these days.

In terms of defense I would take Sam Cane over any other NZ 7. Not only does he make a huge number of tackles but he tackles at a very high rate, and his defense is very physical. I was actually looking at the tackling stats (from foxsports.com.au) of NZ top opensides during the 2013 Super Rugby season the other day (I should really get a life....). Cane lead the list with 17.7 tackles per 80 minutes (@ 93%), followed by Latimer (16.1@93%), Todd (15.2@93%), Luke Braid (13.1@91%), and Hardie (12.7@90%). I do wonder whether Luke Braid's slightly lower tackle rate (and %) may be the reason he doesn't seem to be considered an option for the AB's....

I'm not entirely convinced when people say Savea doesn't have the physicality yet. I think because he is young and only just 100kgs that it's tempting to assume it, but he just seems like a freak. The number of times you watch him wriggle past defenders to make it past the advantage line when he's on the back foot. His turnover work is also very good. Admittedly I think an additional 5kgs wouldn't hurt his game - but I think he gets perhaps overly criticized for phisicality because he looks like an inside back.
Savea is very explosive with ball in hand - there is no doubt about that - but I'm more worried about his physicality when tackling and hitting breakdown. He makes his tackles on defense but seldom makes dominant tackles, and occasionally got dragged along by bigger forwards during the ITM Cup (not what you want from your 7!). Likewise he is not that effective yet at clearing the breakdown, as he can get easily moved by more physical players. Perhaps the bigger issue is his style of play - I haven't seen any evidence (yet) that he is suited for a tighter, forward-oriented battle. There is no doubt he is a freakish talent and I think he will be a world class player one day, I just think he needs a season or two of Super rugby before he will be ready for test level (the fact he plays a very different style to our incumbent 7's counts against him too).

Either way I agree McCaw hasn't looked amazing lately and have also been worried. During the start of 2012 though - if people remember his matches against Ireland? He dropped balls like they were covered with soap and on fire. He did improve as the season continued. I'll be suprised if he isn't starting come 2015. I think his experience and leadership will just shine through..
Like you I'm sure he will be starting for the AB's in 2015. Whether he will still be the best option (even with his leadership and experience) is the big question!
 
Yeah hooker is the only obvious place I would see a few new names.

What are the All Black's options at hooker apart from Coles, Mealamu and Coltman. Is Ben Funnell any good and in the All Black selector's thinking? I know with Corey Flynn out injured Funnell has now taken over as Crusaders' first choice hooker.
 
What are the All Black's options at hooker apart from Coles, Mealamu and Coltman. Is Ben Funnell any good and in the All Black selector's thinking? I know with Corey Flynn out injured Funnell has now taken over as Crusaders' first choice hooker.

Mitchell, Robinson, Funnell, Taylor, Flynn, Matu'u, Dixon, Marshall, Harris, Parsons, McCartney.

Yes I have just named every other Super Rugby hooker. There has been little indication of the pecking order of NZ hookers behind Mealamu and Coles, so what the ABs selectors are thinking is anyones guess. Coltman, Harris, and Marshall all trained with the ABs at times last season, but I don't think that can be taken as a firm indication they are the next in line.

For me Coltman is the clear 3rd choice, but behind that is a lottery. Despite his age Flynn was still playing good rugby before his injury so could be a chance. I do like Funnell as I think he is at a similar level to Flynn already. Harris and Marshall have promise but little experience. Matu'u can make an impact from the bench but is perhaps not seen as a starting option at this level. Dixon was good last season, but seems stuck behind Coles and Matu'u at the Canes. Likewise Parsons was good for the Blues last year, but hasn't really impressed this season. Ged Robinson is a reliable Super Rugby player, but I can't really see him as a test option.

So in conclusion there are plenty of options. The way the ABs selectors rate these options is anyones guess at this stage!
 
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What do Kiwis think of Dylan Hartley? One that got away considering the problems the All Blacks at hooker? Hartley was born and bred in NZ and left to come over here in England when he was 16 on a gap year. I think he started as a prop, like most hookers and then converted.
 
What do Kiwis think of Dylan Hartley? One that got away considering the problems the All Blacks at hooker? Hartley was born and bred in NZ and left to come over here in England when he was 16 on a gap year. I think he started as a prop, like most hookers and then converted.

I think he's a bit of a thug. I don't rate him that highly as a hooker either - he is a solid test player, but hardly outstanding in my opinion (though to be fair I probably only watch him play 3-4 times a year for England). I think if he had stayed in New Zealand he would have been stuck firmly behind Mealamu and Hore (who I consider much better players in their primes), and probably left New Zealand looking for better money. Even if you offered him now I would be relatively happy to stick with Coles and an ancient Mealamu. Obviously my opinion may change if he plays well against us in a few months time!
 
...never really thought we had a problem at hooker...
 
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