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[2016 RBS Six Nations] Round 4: England vs. Wales (12/03/2016)

discriminatory language towards a particular race?!
Choosing to live in a caravan doesn't make you a different race.

It's as bizarre as claiming calling someone "English", in a certain tone, is being racist.
If calling a gypsy a "gypsy boy" is a two week ban then calling an Englishman and "English ****" is a two week ban.
Marler can't help being born English as much as Lee can't help being born a traveller.
 
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Choosing to live in a caravan doesn't make you a different race.

It's as bizarre as claiming calling someone "English", in a certain tone, is being racist.
If calling a gypsy a "gypsy boy" is a two week ban then calling an Englishman and "English ****" is a two week ban.
Marler can't help being born English as much as Lee can't help being born a traveller.

And that will be the nail being hit firmly on the head there !
 
So, what lessons did we learn from all this folks?

1. That the 6N disciplinary committee are a bunch of numpties. If they had anything resembling gonads they would have given Marler a severe reprimand (maybe fined him too) rather than exonerating him. The whole thing would probably have gone away.

2. That when those in charge of the disciplinary process make a complete pig's breakfast of things, it harms everyone involved; the defendant, the victim, the officials and the game overall

3. That a race/discrimination/ethnic controversy in sport will bring the sandal-wearing, PC handwringers out quicker than a gun-slinger draws his Colt 45.

4. That "twitter witch hunts" and "trial by social media" are down sides of the web information age, and being on the end of one is probably not very pleasant.

5. That even after all the furore and kerfuffle stirred up by WR with their decision to take matters into their own hands, they still came up short anyway (if you are going to wave a big stick, bloody well use it!!).

6. That grabbing an opponent around the neck and trying to twist his head off is not as serious as calling him a name.
 
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Leaving the whataboutery aside, this is what should have happened to begin with. Marler was very publicly caught using racially discriminatory language, rugby's laws call for a ban. To admit it happened and then not ban him was bizarre and damaged the game in all sorts of way. Happy that justice is done on that score at least and happy that it finally seems to be over.
 
Choosing to live in a caravan doesn't make you a different race.

Being an Irish traveller does make you a different ethnicity though, I assume that's what Lee is as his surname is not an uncommon one for travellers over here. The only equivalent would have been for Lee to, rather bizarrely, call Marler 'white English boy'. Calling someone English while they're representing England is in no way the same as singling out the sole member of the travelling community on the pitch for being just that. The comment can be described loosely as racist, if we're being pedantic we'd call it bigoted or prejudiced but it holds the same malice as derisively calling someone black boy or Asian boy etc... I do think it's a hard concept to grasp as white people, which I think it's safe to assume most of the people in this argument are considering rugby's demographics, don't understand how someone who looks and sounds like them can be a different ethnicity to them because they never consider their own ethnicity of white English, white Welsh etc...

It would have been interesting had an Irish player said this because it would have sparked much more nationwide controversy over here during a period where integration of the travelling community into society is seen as an important goal for our country today.
 
Choosing to live in a caravan doesn't make you a different race.

It's as bizarre as claiming calling someone "English", in a certain tone, is being racist.
If calling a gypsy a "gypsy boy" is a two week ban then calling an Englishman and "English ****" is a two week ban.
Marler can't help being born English as much as Lee can't help being born a traveller.

But he did not call him "traveller", which probably would not have been a problem.
He called him "gypsy", which is a derogatory word.
 
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Being an Irish traveller does make you a different ethnicity though, I assume that's what Lee is as his surname is not an uncommon one for travellers over here. The only equivalent would have been for Lee to, rather bizarrely, call Marler 'white English boy'.

don't understand how someone who looks and sounds like them can be a different ethnicity to them because they never consider their own ethnicity of white English, white Welsh etc...

That's all rather contradictory - and as has already been shown, not consistent with the very WR laws under which Marler has been punished.

Out of interest, what would you consider a racist slur against an Englishman?
 
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http://www.gypsyfair.co.nz/

http://www.eventfinda.co.nz/2015/a-gypsy-extravaganza-another-roadside-attraction-presents/nelson

http://mco.org.au/event/2016-touring-the-gypsy-palace/

and one of my favourite local musical acts, and has been for over 30 years

http://www.gypsypickers.com/index.shtml


Being an Irish traveller does make you a different ethnicity though,.

Err, no, it doesn't

Romany Travellers are an ethnic grouping. They go back several thousand years with their origins traced back through DNA via The Genome Project to the north-western regions of what is now India and Pakistan. Their DNA is distinctive to the group as a whole. Their ancestors lived in that region for at least 10,000 years.

Irish Travellers are Irish. They have small subgroups of DNA that only traces back to the settled Irish community of between 500 and 1000 years. Those subgroups show clusters due only to their limited numbers resulting in a small number of common allele groupings. Their DNA is 99.999% indistinguishable from anyone else Irish.

Upshot - Irish travellers are not in any way related to Romany Travellers; the only thing they share is the lifestyle They are not any more deserving of being classed as an "ethnicity" than the Red-neck trailer trash that inhabit American trailer parks south of the Mason-Dixon line.
 
The full judgement is to come, but I guess he's been done under the following:

"acts or statements that are, or conduct that is, discriminatory by reason of religion, race, sex, sexual orientation, disability, colour or national or ethnic origin".

So will any reference to a player's nationality automatically lead them up before the beak - arrogant English, tight Scottish, sheep loving Welsh / Kiwi / Aussie, get off the ball you Irish ******?

Hopefully on the next Lions tour a Kiwi player will ask "Heard the one about the Englishman, Irishman and Scotsman...".

Good job John Jeffrey and Finlay Calder aren't playing today - they'd have been banned for life during each Calcutta Cup match.
 
http://www.gypsyfair.co.nz/

http://www.eventfinda.co.nz/2015/a-gypsy-extravaganza-another-roadside-attraction-presents/nelson

http://mco.org.au/event/2016-touring-the-gypsy-palace/

and one of my favourite local musical acts, and has been for over 30 years

http://www.gypsypickers.com/index.shtml




Err, no, it doesn't

Romany Travellers are an ethnic grouping. They go back several thousand years with their origins traced back through DNA via The Genome Project to the north-western regions of what is now India and Pakistan. Their DNA is distinctive to the group as a whole. Their ancestors lived in that region for at least 10,000 years.

Irish Travellers are Irish. They have small subgroups of DNA that only traces back to the settled Irish community of between 500 and 1000 years. Those subgroups show clusters due only to their limited numbers resulting in a small number of common allele groupings. Their DNA is 99.999% indistinguishable from anyone else Irish.

Upshot - Irish travellers are not in any way related to Romany Travellers; the only thing they share is the lifestyle They are not any more deserving of being classed as an "ethnicity" than the Red-neck trailer trash that inhabit American trailer parks south of the Mason-Dixon line.
How does that not make them their own ethnic group? They separated from settled Irish people 1,000 to 2,000 years ago, and the level of integration they had with them is unknown, taking up their current lifestyle and have distinguishable DNA from the rest of the Irish population. They're also considered an ethnic minority by the Oireachtas here based partly on the evidence of this. They've also got a rich and distinct culture and history of their own, comparing them to trailer thrash is completely ignorant and would land you in a lot of legal trouble if publicised in Ireland.
 
How does that not make them their own ethnic group? They separated from settled Irish people 1,000 to 2,000 years ago, and the level of integration they had with them is unknown, taking up their current lifestyle

Freemasons have had a particular lifestyle for 2900 years. Does that make Freemasons an ethnic grouping?

and have distinguishable DNA from the rest of the Irish population. They're also considered an ethnic minority by the Oireachtas here based partly on the evidence of this

No. Irish Traveller DNA is 99.999% indistinguishable from the general settled Irish populace The only differences are those you would find after a group had bred within a limited gene pool, in much the same way as happens in small religious cult groupings such as the the Amish and the Exclusive Brethren.

. They've also got a rich and distinct culture and history of their own

Well plenty of groups of people meet that criteria; the Gay community and the Deaf community, for example, have a "rich and distinct culture". Would you call them an ethnic grouping?

comparing them to trailer thrash is completely ignorant and would land you in a lot of legal trouble if publicised in Ireland.

Try actually reading what I posted; "They are not any more deserving of being classed as an "ethnicity" than the Red-neck trailer trash that inhabit American trailer parks south of the Mason-Dixon line." is not comparing them with trailer trash!!
 
Freemasons have had a particular lifestyle for 2900 years. Does that make Freemasons an ethnic grouping?

Quite clearly not, that statement is nothing more than a red herring and you know it. A glorified boys club is incomparable to a group of people living and breeding with each other for 1000+ years.

No. Irish Traveller DNA is 99.999% indistinguishable from the general settled Irish populace The only differences are those you would find after a group had bred within a limited gene pool, in much the same way as happens in small religious cult groupings such as the the Amish and the Exclusive Brethren.
No, Irish travellers are a "distinct genetic group from settled Irish as Icelanders are from Norwegians".
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/dna-study-travellers-a-distinct-ethnicity-156324.html

That's a 1250 year old nation that was under Norwegian rule for 118 years, it had been settled on by Norsemen and Vikings and hasn't been ruled by Norway for 700 years. That's the same period of time that Irish travellers, unlike settled Irish, would not have been fraternising and breeding with Norman settlers who provided many common Irish surnames, such as anything starting with Fitz or De/D' and many more. These are names that very few, if any, Irish traveller families have, I couldn't find any after skimming through this. http://www.travellerheritage.ie/parish_records_of_surnames.asp This is really where the most significant scientific distinction of ethnicity lies between settled Irish and Irish travellers because the Norman influence on this country was absolutely huge.

Well plenty of groups of people meet that criteria; the Gay community and the Deaf community, for example, have a "rich and distinct culture". Would you call them an ethnic grouping?

Again that statement is made to be misleading. Gay and deaf communities have their own culture but they don't have unique marital, working and religious traditions like Irish travellers nor their own language, sign language is incomparable here as it's used out of necessity and they don't all live in a way as distinct from the wider communities they live in as Irish travellers do to the settled Irish.


Try actually reading what I posted; "They are not any more deserving of being classed as an "ethnicity" than the Red-neck trailer trash that inhabit American trailer parks south of the Mason-Dixon line." is not comparing them with trailer trash!!

If it wasn't a comparison it was certainly malicious considering that you used the Amish as an example in this post which would have been a far better example, albeit still wrong, to the point you were trying to make.

An ethnic group is described as "a community or population made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent." I don't understand how a group with their own language and all their other cultural distinctions who have separated themselves from and been separated from the settled community which they likely came from for 1000+ years to the point where they do have scientifically distinguishable DNA aren't an ethnic group.

Another point which backs up them being their own ethnic group is that if a settled person were to marry a traveller and live like a traveller it wouldn't make them one, their kids would be travellers, well half traveller, but they wouldn't. Quite like if a white Norwegian were to marry a white Icelandic and move to Iceland their ethnicity doesn't change.

They are considered ethnic minorities by both the governments of the UK and Ireland and it wasn't given to them just because they asked for it, they fought hard for the distinction and it was a decision made and influenced by experts in fields relevant to the issue, people who have a far greater understanding of the topic than either of us do.
 
His match fee would have been £15k.

Haven't noticed him in the Panamanian tax haven disclosures, so presumably taxable at 45% making 20k equivalent to around 2.5 match fees.

That's more about making an example than a punishment fitting the crime.
 
About what is this discussion anyway ?
If we could all agree, Marler did not want to start a kind conversation, he rightfully has been punished.
I do not care too much what exact words he used. Is it that important ? Would it make it worse or better, if he called him different ?
I do support England, BTW.
 
Quite clearly not, that statement is nothing more than a red herring and you know it. A glorified boys club is incomparable to a group of people living and breeding with each other for 1000+ years.


No, Irish travellers are a "distinct genetic group from settled Irish as Icelanders are from Norwegians".
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/dna-study-travellers-a-distinct-ethnicity-156324.html

That's a 1250 year old nation that was under Norwegian rule for 118 years, it had been settled on by Norsemen and Vikings and hasn't been ruled by Norway for 700 years. That's the same period of time that Irish travellers, unlike settled Irish, would not have been fraternising and breeding with Norman settlers who provided many common Irish surnames, such as anything starting with Fitz or De/D' and many more. These are names that very few, if any, Irish traveller families have, I couldn't find any after skimming through this. http://www.travellerheritage.ie/parish_records_of_surnames.asp This is really where the most significant scientific distinction of ethnicity lies between settled Irish and Irish travellers because the Norman influence on this country was absolutely huge.



Again that statement is made to be misleading. Gay and deaf communities have their own culture but they don't have unique marital, working and religious traditions like Irish travellers nor their own language, sign language is incomparable here as it's used out of necessity and they don't all live in a way as distinct from the wider communities they live in as Irish travellers do to the settled Irish.




If it wasn't a comparison it was certainly malicious considering that you used the Amish as an example in this post which would have been a far better example, albeit still wrong, to the point you were trying to make.

An ethnic group is described as "a community or population made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent." I don't understand how a group with their own language and all their other cultural distinctions who have separated themselves from and been separated from the settled community which they likely came from for 1000+ years to the point where they do have scientifically distinguishable DNA aren't an ethnic group.

Another point which backs up them being their own ethnic group is that if a settled person were to marry a traveller and live like a traveller it wouldn't make them one, their kids would be travellers, well half traveller, but they wouldn't. Quite like if a white Norwegian were to marry a white Icelandic and move to Iceland their ethnicity doesn't change.


We'll have to agree to disagree, otherwise this debate is going to descend into a mire of pointless bickering

However, if you can show me scientific references (not Traveller blogs or websites, I mean articles on reputable science sites such as Scientific American or Nature) that show Irish Travellers have a unique DNA from other Irish in the same way that Romani Gypsy DNA is unique, then I will change my view.

They are considered ethnic minorities by both the governments of the UK and Ireland and it wasn't given to them just because they asked for it, they fought hard for the distinction and it was a decision made and influenced by experts in fields relevant to the issue, people who have a far greater understanding of the topic than either of us do.

I normally don't respond to fallacious Ad Verecundiam arguments, but I will say that I don't take a lot of notice of what governments say. They have their own hidden political agendas for the things they do, most of which is about getting into power and staying there.
 


We'll have to agree to disagree, otherwise this debate is going to descend into a mire of pointless bickering

However, if you can show me scientific references (not Traveller blogs or websites, I mean articles on reputable science sites such as Scientific American or Nature) that show Irish Travellers have a unique DNA from other Irish in the same way that Romani Gypsy DNA is unique, then I will change my view.



I normally don't respond to fallacious Ad Verecundiam arguments, but I will say that I don't take a lot of notice of what governments say. They have their own hidden political agendas for the things they do, most of which is about getting into power and staying there.
Fair enough, the Irish Examiner is a paper though and it was a study done through the University of Edinburgh which gave those results, I'm sure I could find the academic article on it if I wished but I'm not really bothered going through different databases for the sake of it. The other link was just a list of traveller surnames it had no agenda on it's own.
 
If we could all agree, Marler did not want to start a kind conversation, he rightfully has been punished.
I do not care too much what exact words he used. Is it that important ? Would it make it worse or better, if he called him different ?

Yes.

"Sledging" is a pretty big part of most sports, none more so than contact sports.

It's the supposed racism that's the issue, not an adult being mean towards another.
 


We'll have to agree to disagree, otherwise this debate is going to descend into a mire of pointless bickering

However, if you can show me scientific references (not Traveller blogs or websites, I mean articles on reputable science sites such as Scientific American or Nature) that show Irish Travellers have a unique DNA from other Irish in the same way that Romani Gypsy DNA is unique, then I will change my view.



I normally don't respond to fallacious Ad Verecundiam arguments, but I will say that I don't take a lot of notice of what governments say. They have their own hidden political agendas for the things they do, most of which is about getting into power and staying there.

Not that this matters drastically; but ethnicity and 'race' are seperate. Race is an attempt at a genetic distinction, while ethnicity is based around cultural identity.

On any New Zealand census I fill out Pakeha / NZ European. All my Grandparents are English, so genetically there would be nothing seperating me from England - however culturally I don't identify as English.
 
Yes.

"Sledging" is a pretty big part of most sports, none more so than contact sports.

It's the supposed racism that's the issue, not an adult being mean towards another.

Still i do not seem the point in trying to define "racism" and/or "gypsy" here.
I do not think that Marler is a racist, but just stupid.

Claiming that Quins say on their homepage "Joe recognises that he is a role model and takes this position, as a part of his profession, seriously. He has accepted that he made a mistake and has apologised to all those he offended", there must have been some kind of wrong behaviour, even if you just call it "mean". Still that is too much.

Plus he was charged by World Rugby for breach of reg 20 "Regulation 20 and the code of conduct both cover statements that are unsporting OR insulting / racist".
So at least it was unsporting behavior, he was punished for, not necessarily racism, which I agree with. Still rightfully punished. Just keep your mouth shut during play.
 

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