[2017 Rugby Championship] Round 2: New Zealand v Australia (26/08/2017)

[smartcooky]

mertens was a rugby genius and kronfeld was an unrelenting ball seeking cruise missle.

This with bells on!

 

[Nubiwan]

on the mckenzie not releasing... can't see where his right arm is but his left hand does look like it released, nigel's first reaction is penalty for Australia but guess he changed his mind

don't think smith was ever held and it looks like there was just a hand on him when his knees hit the ground... would be a very harsh ball carrier not releasing

the one where beale tackles mckenzie is where i think the all blacks got extremely lucky... beale completes the tackle and gets up to poach and there is also another wallaby defender there
in that time mckenzie gets up and then pops, doesn't just pop from the ground

Whats the definition of held? Shoulder to arm around player? Whats the definition of playing the ball off your feet? Is crawling on your knees not off your feet? Couple of players had their hands on his back as he crawled through. He was crawling, and not attempting to stand. Finally, is it not illegal to tackle a player off his feet? How then do you tackle a player crawling?

Anyway, I've seen it given.

 

[die_mole]

Whats the definition of held? Shoulder to arm around player? Whats the definition of playing the ball off your feet? Is crawling on your knees not off your feet? Couple of players had their hands on his back as he crawled through. He was crawling, and not attempting to stand. Finally, is it not illegal to tackle a player off his feet? How then do you tackle a player crawling?

Anyway, I've seen it given.

there is no definition of held... but there is a definition for tackle and you are free to use the law book as anyone else

same with "playing ball off your feet"

a player on ground with ball must either pass, release, or get up with the ball... as you can hear nigel say, and which i agree with smith was in the "process of getting up" so he is fine and a player tackling him would be fine

 

[Larksea]

You might want to go back to the 1995 RWC final and watch Francois Pienaar pushing Josh Kronfeld around like a little schoolboy in short trousers.
Kronnie was bossed all day long by his master and it was ugly viewing from an AB perspective.
The big Japie hard bugger smashed Kronnie all about the place.

Mark Carter was quicker than Kronfeld, that much is for sure.
What did we ever win with Kronfeld?
Zero.
What did we win with Mehrtens?
Zero.
Good players but not great in my book.
They won us nothing and how long did they play?
Too long.
I remember being very grateful when Kronfeld was no longer selected. He wasn't very clever, prone to coughing up penalties.
Mehrts was a great kicker but not my cup of tea at any other role he was to play for the AB's.
Don't get me started on Justin Marshall.
If you want to pick on an Auckland player not worthy of making the AB's you could do a lot worse than Mark Carter, try Bernie McCahill. Now there was an ordinary player.

I find this kinda a bit bizarre. while that team didn't win the 95 WC they were a great team, set the tournament on fire and made rugby fun to watch. And even though the majority of the squad was struck down with food poisoning it still took an extra time drop goal to beat them. Also note that they went back to SA the very next year and won a test series. which I believe was the first ever test series the AB's won in SA. Fairly big achievement in its own right and in some ways was redemption for 95.

 

[mania]

... even though the majority of the squad was struck down with food poisoning it still took an extra time drop goal to beat them.

this was the rugby Gods at work. SA needed the win and it transcended rugby when they did. to NZ it wouldve just been a WC. to SA it helped unify a nation

 

[The Jones Boy]

There is no redemption for how poorly Kronfeld played in the 95 RWC final.
Pienaar's quality aside Kronfeld was shown up badly when it counted the most and nothing changed 4 years later.

The Jones Boy - i dont think its possible for me to disagree with you any more than i do in relation to you post.
piernaar didnt own kronfeld. no one ever owned kronfeld.

Lol. You've got rose tinted glasses on.

What did we win with cullen, or bunce, or randel or goldie or hayman or umaga or carlos. so every all Black involved that didn't win a world Cup won zero?
what about the super ***les and bledisloes that kronfeld and merhtens won? do they count as anything?

World Cups they ain't and if you're the best that's the trophy that ranks above all others.
Bar none.
I still rate beating the Japies at test level above the Bledisloe or any Super ***les.
The Aussies are Johnny Come Lately on the rugby scene.
The Boks are the old enemy...
I've never witnessed a test series like the 1981 Springbok tour of New Zealand.

On the players you mentioned...
Hayman was gutted after the quarter final loss, he ran away for the money or he would have won the next RWC, Carlos was a fantastic entertainer but prone to do odd things at times and he couldn't place kick his way out of a paper bag (Look at the lost Wellington test to England in 2003 just prior to the RWC, we had that game and he couldn't kick from right in front) which is why he had less opportunities. Tame Jandall, no mate, too small to be the AB no.8 and not quick enough to be the openside, never rated him. When the going got tough at AB level he got found out and got smoked by the big boys.
Umaga was unlucky, he was injured at the 2003 RWC and we had no one to combat the mighty Mortlock in the midfield during that semi-final tussle. We also had the worst AB coach ever in the form of meat-head Mitchell. What was the NZRFU thinking?
I rated Bunce but he was always hampered by playing outside Walter Little who I never rated. Why they dropped Warwick Taylor for Little (circa 1990?) I never understood it but thats rugby. Little was like a less talented Carlos Spencer. 30% of the time Little was fantastic, 70% of the time he would go missing. That made life hard for Bunce.
Alama Ieremia, never rated him either. No rugby brain just a grunter.
Goldie was a fine sportsman and a dual international but he would never have made my AB team as a fullback and he would have struggled as a winger. George Gregan made him look like a mug when Goldie was a monty to score the winning try but failed to protect the ball in that famous Bledisloe match.
Cullen was a brilliant runner, arguably the best running fullback we have had, but suffered from a very average kicking game and running away from his support and getting isolated. Partly because he was so quick and the support wasn't that good but that was the key reason cited when he was dropped.
I never rated Mehrtens outside of his kicking (typical saffer no.10) and Kronfeld was slow and gave away too many penalties, much like Jamie Joseph, Rodney So'oialo and Richard Loe.
There is a reason we didn't win the RWC during the 90's and we had three opportunities, the first two in '91 and 95 were golden.

I don't have the rose tinted glasses you guys have in a nostalgic way.
Sure we had some average coaches in the form of the old boy brigade, Grizz Wylie (who went on to make a poor showing coaching Argentina) was given the job after Lochore stepped down, Wylie's great Canterbury team of the early 80's had swept the board clean for several seasons but by the time the 87 RWC rolled around Auckland had gained the ascendancy and were wiping the floor with everyone; and Laurie Mains (who was picked as an anti Auckland backlash when Otago won the NPC ***le after Grizz Wylie had stood down 14 starting Auckland players (for AB duty) for the NPC decider at the House of Pain, what a crock... , when they finally chose John Hart it was 8 years too late, the great players he had developed during the mid to late 1980's that were used constantly by Sir Brian Lochore ( a great coach) Wylie and Mains during their tenures were almost all gone or were in the very twilight of their careers and Hart was up against the John Eales team of stars in '99.
That was the best Ozzie team ever.

Also note that they went back to SA the very next year and won a test series. which I believe was the first ever test series the AB's won in SA. Fairly big achievement in its own right and in some ways was redemption for 95.

No mate, thats no kind of redemption and the key about winning that series was the introduction of neutral referees. Since that introduction the AB's have gone from a losing position on the ledger of most wins against any country with RSA, to a 70% winning streak.
Neutral referees made a massive difference to results in the Republic.

i'll agree to disagree with you here.

Thats all part of the fun. If we all thought the same it would be very dull.

 

[mania]

Thats all part of the fun. If we all thought the same it would be very dull.

u and i sir are going to have a lot of fun. whilst you speak some pretty valid points i disagree with a lot of what you say.
saying that tho if we both agreed with each other all the time then one of us would be surplus
i dont mind my rose tinted glasses, its more fun on my side of the lenses
just a couple things
agree Boks seperate the men from the boys. they have always been the gate keepers to our rite of passage into international rugby
hayman didnt run, he sauntered all the way to the bank
carlos had a big bag of tricks. however when his tricks ran out he was found wanting
taineRandall was a great 6. he was never an 8 or 7.
agree about meat-head Mitchell. worse coach ever
walterLittle was awesome and had a long standing partnership with bunce. they complemented each other
cullen was the best . he had an awesome kicking game. he just hardly ever needed it. agree that support couldnt keep up and cullen got blamed.
goldie moving to fullback was a huge mistake while cullen was around.
mehrtens was selfless and made players around him look good.
kronfeld didnt need to be a sprinter. he was as unrelenting as the tide.
richie wasnt a speedster either

 

[Kiwiwomble]

There is no redemption for how poorly Kronfeld played in the 95 RWC final.
Pienaar's quality aside Kronfeld was shown up badly when it counted the most and nothing changed 4 years later.



Lol. You've got rose tinted glasses on.



World Cups they ain't and if you're the best that's the trophy that ranks above all others.
Bar none.
I still rate beating the Japies at test level above the Bledisloe or any Super ***les.
The Aussies are Johnny Come Lately on the rugby scene.
The Boks are the old enemy...
I've never witnessed a test series like the 1981 Springbok tour of New Zealand.

On the players you mentioned...
Hayman was gutted after the quarter final loss, he ran away for the money or he would have won the next RWC, Carlos was a fantastic entertainer but prone to do odd things at times and he couldn't place kick his way out of a paper bag (Look at the lost Wellington test to England in 2003 just prior to the RWC, we had that game and he couldn't kick from right in front) which is why he had less opportunities. Tame Jandall, no mate, too small to be the AB no.8 and not quick enough to be the openside, never rated him. When the going got tough at AB level he got found out and got smoked by the big boys.
Umaga was unlucky, he was injured at the 2003 RWC and we had no one to combat the mighty Mortlock in the midfield during that semi-final tussle. We also had the worst AB coach ever in the form of meat-head Mitchell. What was the NZRFU thinking?
I rated Bunce but he was always hampered by playing outside Walter Little who I never rated. Why they dropped Warwick Taylor for Little (circa 1990?) I never understood it but thats rugby. Little was like a less talented Carlos Spencer. 30% of the time Little was fantastic, 70% of the time he would go missing. That made life hard for Bunce.
Alama Ieremia, never rated him either. No rugby brain just a grunter.
Goldie was a fine sportsman and a dual international but he would never have made my AB team as a fullback and he would have struggled as a winger. George Gregan made him look like a mug when Goldie was a monty to score the winning try but failed to protect the ball in that famous Bledisloe match.
Cullen was a brilliant runner, arguably the best running fullback we have had, but suffered from a very average kicking game and running away from his support and getting isolated. Partly because he was so quick and the support wasn't that good but that was the key reason cited when he was dropped.
I never rated Mehrtens outside of his kicking (typical saffer no.10) and Kronfeld was slow and gave away too many penalties, much like Jamie Joseph, Rodney So'oialo and Richard Loe.
There is a reason we didn't win the RWC during the 90's and we had three opportunities, the first two in '91 and 95 were golden.

I don't have the rose tinted glasses you guys have in a nostalgic way.
Sure we had some average coaches in the form of the old boy brigade, Grizz Wylie (who went on to make a poor showing coaching Argentina) was given the job after Lochore stepped down, Wylie's great Canterbury team of the early 80's had swept the board clean for several seasons but by the time the 87 RWC rolled around Auckland had gained the ascendancy and were wiping the floor with everyone; and Laurie Mains (who was picked as an anti Auckland backlash when Otago won the NPC ***le after Grizz Wylie had stood down 14 starting Auckland players (for AB duty) for the NPC decider at the House of Pain, what a crock... , when they finally chose John Hart it was 8 years too late, the great players he had developed during the mid to late 1980's that were used constantly by Sir Brian Lochore ( a great coach) Wylie and Mains during their tenures were almost all gone or were in the very twilight of their careers and Hart was up against the John Eales team of stars in '99.
That was the best Ozzie team ever.




No mate, thats no kind of redemption and the key about winning that series was the introduction of neutral referees. Since that introduction the AB's have gone from a losing position on the ledger of most wins against any country with RSA, to a 70% winning streak.
Neutral referees made a massive difference to results in the Republic.



Thats all part of the fun. If we all thought the same it would be very dull.

could question a few things said in this post....but writing off Goldie for one poor play...that's strange

its takes a certain kind of arrogance to say everyone else is wrong and your the only one who remembers things correctly

 

[The Jones Boy]

could question a few things said in this post....but writing off Goldie for one poor play...that's strange

its takes a certain kind of arrogance to say everyone else is wrong and your the only one who remembers things correctly

It takes a certain kind of ignorance to claim I'm trying any kind of superiority play here.
Secondly, I'm not insulting anyone...
My opinion is that and only that, an opinion, and I'm entitled to it.
I don't 'expect' any agreement or disagreement.
I'm interested in other peoples opinions without taking it personally.
By all means agree or disagree, you don't have to take it personally though... I'm not trying to crush your world view etc.
It's just an opinion.

I never rated Goldie, that is my opinion.
He was a good winger and a very average fullback.
I thought he was a better cricketer.
For instance, I would never put him in the same calibre of class as Stu Wilson.

 

[The Jones Boy]

u and i sir are going to have a lot of fun. whilst you speak some pretty valid points i disagree with a lot of what you say.
saying that tho if we both agreed with each other all the time then one of us would be surplus
i dont mind my rose tinted glasses, its more fun on my side of the lenses

i agree completely. I have very rose tinted glasses when I talk about Michael Jones

hayman didnt run, he sauntered all the way to the bank

Haha , fair play, he wasn't built for running but he could walk through walls, arguably the best prop ever.

taineRandall was a great 6. he was never an 8 or 7.

really? I didn't think he was as good as Mike Brewer at 6, certainly nowhere near Alan Whetton or Kaino.

walterLittle was awesome

He was, but only 30% of the time, just nowhere near enough at AB level.

...and had a long standing partnership with bunce.

At a time when incumbents were often kept for too long instead of re-examining their actual progress and valid input.

cullen was the best .

The Paekakariki express was pretty awesome. A devastating finisher. He might even give Fergie McCormack a run for his money ;-)

...he had an awesome kicking game. he just hardly ever needed it.

I'll have to take your word on that. He didn't place kick.

...agree that support couldnt keep up and cullen got blamed.

like most of NZ I didn't buy that line at the time about how they said he ran away and got isolated. We didn't have the support game to assist him or we might have won a RWC with him.

goldie moving to fullback was a huge mistake while cullen was around.

Goldie was always going to suffer with that comparison. Much like Zinny spent a couple of years struggling to fill Buck's boots as a young bloke.

mehrtens was selfless and made players around him look good.

Certainly at Canterbury that was undeniable and I can see why he kept getting picked and to be fair we didn't seem to have anyone better, Spencer was too erratic and not consistent enough.

kronfeld didnt need to be a sprinter. he was as unrelenting as the tide.

Kronfeld was a good player, but he wasn't in the same league as Michael Jones, Graham Mourie or the great McCaw.
At the '99 final, Andrew Blowers was the form no.7 but as the incumbent Kronfeld kept getting the nod.

richie wasnt a speedster either

Neither were Michael Jones and Graham Mourie, but all three possesssed two things that Josh never had... that critical split second of anticipation where they read the game quicker than their opponents and they were lightning from a standing start over a couple of metres to get to the next ruck. Top sprinting speed is for wingers and full backs.

Excellent chat.

 

[The Jones Boy]

this was the rugby Gods at work. SA needed the win and it transcended rugby when they did. to NZ it wouldve just been a WC. to SA it helped unify a nation

Bugger that, I was at an awesome 21st birthday party for a young sheila being held at Revolver studios that night and when the result played out the party emptied out.
Immediately.
What was Bevan doing taking Jonah back 80 metres for a 'forward pass' when Bevan was 70 metres away.
Did SA need the win as much as Derek Bevan 'needed' his gold watch from Louis Luyt?
;-)

 

[smartcooky]

could question a few things said in this post....but writing off Goldie for one poor play...that's strange

its takes a certain kind of arrogance to say everyone else is wrong and your the only one who remembers things correctly

He isn't the only one. I rememeber it the way he does, and I was there.

 

[Red Enigma]

I agree - great chat. Watched all of those players from the stands. Any AB is going to be a player of substance and often selection came down to the game plan.

For nostalgia I throw in Waka Nathan as the best and, to be parochial, Graeme Williams as a loosie who played the game the way it is commonly played now, but under far different rules, very hard and very fast. I loved rugby in the 50's and 60's, but hasten to concede every new decade brought better laws and improved skills. I doubt if any previous AB team could beat the current lot under current laws.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Edited

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

Hayman was gutted after the quarter final loss, he ran away for the money or he would have won the next RWC

Not true, the QF loss had nothing to do with Hayman heading overseas, he'd signed with Newcastle before the WC even began. I wish he'd stayed, imo the best prop we've ever had and was in his prime, but can't blame him for cashing in.

 

[The Jones Boy]

He isn't the only one. I rememeber it the way he does, and I was there.

You were at that game?
Thats a while ago now...

 

[The Jones Boy]

Not true, the QF loss had nothing to do with Hayman heading overseas, he'd signed with Newcastle before the WC even began. I wish he'd stayed, imo the best prop we've ever had and was in his prime, but can't blame him for cashing in.

Oh really?
I heard the NZRFU had offered him a million over a period and a farm to try and keep him but he wanted to go.

 

[mania]

Oh really?
I heard the NZRFU had offered him a million over a period and a farm to try and keep him but he wanted to go.

no that was 2010 they offered to help him purchase a farm and allegedly a $mil. however he got a bigger offer and stayed in france. dont blame him either. he'd been out of ABs rugby for 3-4 years and at the time was the highest paid player in europe.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Ahhh... ok, thanks for clearing that up chaps.
Hayman was a force of nature.
At the end of his career they asked Os Du Randt who was in his opinion the toughest opponent he ever faced and he said, no question, Carl Hayman.