[2017 Rugby Championship] Round 4: New Zealand v South Africa (16/09/2017)

[TRF_stormer2010]

Kriel out isn't too big of an issue. Its not as if the other forwards aren't pulling their weight at the ruck and ITO carrying. Shifting Kolisi to open side and bringing in JLdP seems the best and most likely bet. Its also not the forwards that are the issue by and large even if there is room for improvement (Whiteley coming in for Cassiem and Kriel and Oosthuizen fit).

The issue is 1) we have a green backline and there are big question marks about 2) if these are indeed our best available options and 3) whether they have the potential to grow into world class players given enough time. I for one am not convinced of 3 and think it might be a good idea if AC were to rotate backline players one or two positions at a time and if anyone puts their hand up then let them continue. My first stop would be to bring in RJvR and Lleyds at 12 and 14 while shifting Serfontein out to 13. I just think that'd settle Jantjies and give us more of a play maker at 13 and in conjunction with Serf at 13 and Combrinck at 14 should make our defense out wide more robust. Combrinck can also help with the kicking from fullback and is more assured under the high ball.

After that I'd bring in Pollard and Lleyds at 10 and 11 or 15. See how they go. I have an idea these players have the higher ceilings. I have little hope for 9 sadly. We have a raft of options but every candidate has an * next to their name. Scrummy with the best service to start with Hougaard on the bench for mine. SA still is looking for our 9s to play fly half whereas we should start trusting our guys to do their job and pick our 9s based on their service.

 

[Durbanite]

With Du Preez twins in the squad JL/SK could take up Kriel's workload and Dan could come in for Cassiem off the bench. A pity Jaco is out, a good bet would've been to play JLDP at 8.

Injuries are going to blunt our bench especially now that PSDT and JLDP will probably start, at least Kitshoff should still be in an impact role so there's that.

As for the back 3, 2 specialist wings will always hurt us against a team as tactically astute as the ABs, but at this stage we just have to soldier on, hopefully they will be working on viable exit strategies.

Restarts and exits are hurting us, between Skosan botching it under the high ball and Rhule not being able to clear the ball with his own boot we're going to struggle, but tbf we have been playing this way the whole year. I think it was a bad idea leaving for the Australian tour with little viable replacements for the back 3. Only way to change the squad now is to weaken other areas like the centres or trust Leyds to perform. I would be happy with Pollard at 12, Serf at 13 an Kriel at 14 or some combination along these lines. Pollard at 15 doesn't sound horrid, but can see Coetzee being the best bet at 15 for now. He has to have a ripper if we're stand a chance, the NZ backs are going to keep him so busy.

Wishing at this stage we had Combrinck or Bosch's boots to shore up the backline, they're both good at thumping the ball miles down field which is better imo then the short or jabby kicks from EJ or Coetzee.

It's not like we haven't won a match against the Kiwis with 2 specialist wings and an average fullback before, and our boys are always energized against NZ so I'm optimistic of our chances compared to the horror of last year.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yeah look I'm being realistic here. I don't think we'll win this game, but I'm just hoping for a good contest with the score a bit closer than what it was last year.

I'll be looking more to the intent our guys are showing on the pitch, and if they are doing the bok jersey proud again.

 

[The Jones Boy]

I reckon the Boks are in resurgent form.
Even with AC as the coach, the retarded quota system and the northern hemisphere player drain.
There is so much talent in the RSA, you just can't keep them down for long.

 

[Penne Rara]

the biggest problem with DMac kicking is that face he makes when lining up...... (this is the official DMac emoji)

Isn't this the official Dmac emoji?

 

[mania]

Isn't this the official Dmac emoji?

nah i reckon thats wolverine.. or a ****** off kaino. dMac isnt savage enough for this emoji

 

[Penne Rara]

I wish the AB's would get out of this thing we have, where the 10 does all the goal kicking and kicks for touch from penalties. The positive is that roles are clearly defined but there are many situations here we have a guy on field for a kick that would be better suited depending on the situation. Be it Dagg for a touch finder or of Barrett has missed a couple and is having an off day then let dmac take over, it doesn't need to be a big deal

I completely agree with this, although Barrett has proven to be an excellent touch finder as of late. His in-game kicking is also great, but he needs to stop trying these chip kicks when they're not on. They used to work in open play but teams have now changed their strategy and cover defenders are here to recover these short kicks. They can be used, but the conditions need to be just right. That being said, he needs to be kept at 10, there is no other first five better than him at finding options flat on the line.

nah i reckon thats wolverine.. or a ****** off kaino. dMac isnt savage enough for this emoji

Well there's not much difference, is there?

 

[Durbanite]

AC comments on the game from SuperSport:

“We are very aware of how tough it is going to be against the All Blacks and we need no reminding of how we will be punished if we repeat the same kind of errors that cost us against the Wallabies,” said Coetzee.

“There are grey areas in our game that we have to clear up. They are decision making areas such as whether it is to gather kicks or run and kick. Whatever the case, we can’t give the All Blacks a choice on what to do with the possession. Because we know they will hurt you if you give them the ball and a choice of what to do with it.”
The Boks were reminded by the Perth match though of how much they can gain just by controlling possession. In the first half they didn’t have ball to play with and looked poor as a result, whereas in the second half when the pack came into its own it was a different story.

“The players are starting to make better decisions and you can only make better decisions if you are winning more ball,” said Coetzee.
“That is the prime message going to the players ahead of this match. It is quite simple really. If we don’t win possession we have no chance of dictating the game.”

AC saying the right things and hinting at a more direct approach on Saturday. I particularly like the bit where he says we won't want to give them free ball and options to use it as the amount of aimless kicks in the past to the ABs were all too prevalent in our previous attempts at success and every time a gift to the kiwi backs particularly under HM. Glad he has seen some sense, hopefully the bokke will follow through and seize the initiative. I'm more at ease about our chances at giving the kiwis a proper contest now but it'll still be a huge challenge as always.


Source: https://www.supersport.com/rugby/springboks/news/170912/Boks_focus_on_blunting_AB_momentum

 

[The Jones Boy]

Isn't this the official Dmac emoji?

I would give this one to Sam Cane

 

[SomeOke]

D-Mac is affectionately known as rape-face Damo in our friend circle, douchebag Damo is de Allende.

In any case while it may be true that the AB's have looked a tiny bit vulnerable this year it's just not enough. Different story if the Aussies or Saffers were having amazing years with top squads but both nations are suffering through a few gremlins at the moment. I fully expect us to compete up front, but the AB's always score 14+ points from counter-attacks or opposition mistakes on top of their structured play. If you don't have a way to do the same or find a way to make up those points you just can't beat them.

If we defend the way we defended agaisnt Aus we will be in trouble as well in my opinion. You can't give the Kiwi players time on the ball to make plays.
As I said if we can keep it under 10, I'd be very happy, under 20 would be somewhat acceptable but make me moderately miserable. Any more and it's a warm bath, some cold play, and a razor.

 

[George Ford]

AC comments on the game from SuperSport:

“We are very aware of how tough it is going to be against the All Blacks and we need no reminding of how we will be punished if we repeat the same kind of errors that cost us against the Wallabies,” said Coetzee.

“There are grey areas in our game that we have to clear up. They are decision making areas such as whether it is to gather kicks or run and kick. Whatever the case, we can’t give the All Blacks a choice on what to do with the possession. Because we know they will hurt you if you give them the ball and a choice of what to do with it.”
The Boks were reminded by the Perth match though of how much they can gain just by controlling possession. In the first half they didn’t have ball to play with and looked poor as a result, whereas in the second half when the pack came into its own it was a different story.

“The players are starting to make better decisions and you can only make better decisions if you are winning more ball,” said Coetzee.
“That is the prime message going to the players ahead of this match. It is quite simple really. If we don’t win possession we have no chance of dictating the game.”

AC saying the right things and hinting at a more direct approach on Saturday. I particularly like the bit where he says we won't want to give them free ball and options to use it as the amount of aimless kicks in the past to the ABs were all too prevalent in our previous attempts at success and every time a gift to the kiwi backs particularly under HM. Glad he has seen some sense, hopefully the bokke will follow through and seize the initiative. I'm more at ease about our chances at giving the kiwis a proper contest now but it'll still be a huge challenge as always.


Source: https://www.supersport.com/rugby/springboks/news/170912/Boks_focus_on_blunting_AB_momentum

I never read much into what he says. He is already pinning blame for squandering the win on the players.. It was obviously his tactic to try a territorial game which resulted in the worst 1st half performance of the year, whereas in the 2nd half when they kept the ball more the Boks looked more dominant.

To mark a common phrase used in a season: you're only as good as your last match - the Boks don't stand a chance. Against los Pumas the ABs were trying too much, but rest assured they will wear their best suit for this one.

If the ABs get 2 or more scores ahead, the contest will be done. ABs by 15+

 

[unrated]

Hopefully going to be a good game.
I hope they can start both of the du Perez brothers. Some people were suggesting before the Kriek injury for Jean Luc to play at 8 . But if anyone should have taken the 8 starting spot it should have been Dan. He is the number 8. Jean Luc is the flanker. Not the other way around.

If South Africa wins it would be very unexpected and our best chance is probably a win at home. If NZ loses then I really would not want to be the ref. The NZ fanbase will rip him apart.

 

[Gavin]

One of the betting companies has NZ with a +17 point handicap.

I really can't see NZ winning by that much.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

One of the betting companies has NZ with a +17 point handicap.

I really can't see NZ winning by that much.

It sounds about right to me. If anything I'd say we'll win by more than that. We haven't put out a complete performance yet and considering many guys were rested last week, I expect us to be well fired up for this one.

 

[mania]

crocketts an impact prop. hames has gotta start

knew it. glad hansen agrees with me
hames is a better scrummager , decent at the dark arts and gets involved in clearing/securing rux/mauls.
crockett is maybe a better ball runner and tackler but that wont be needed until the latter quarter of the game. hames can help set the platform

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Same here. More than 17 points if the ABs fire on all cylinders and we see last weeks Boks tactics. Less than 17 points if the ABs don't quite click and the Boks let their athletes run with the ball in hand.

By my reckoning the Boks and AC are the only undefeated Tier1 or Tier2 side/coach of 2017 (admittedly only 6 games). I can't see that lasting beyond this match if the ABs have 15 men on the field, but it's not a bad wee run.

 

[Larksea]

AB's named

it is a good move to start hames and its what I would have done too but I didn't expect the selectors to do it. I'm also suprised with NMS at 14 I think Dagg would be a better option. It leaves us with a very inexperienced back 3. Other changes were to be expected like Cane, whitelock and Squire back.

ALL BLACKS: Damian McKenzie, Nehe Milner-Skudder, Ryan Crotty, Sonny Bill Williams, Rieko Ioane, Beauden Barrett, Aaron Smith; Kieran Read (capt), Sam Cane, Liam Squire, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Nepo Laulala, Dane Coles, Kane Hames. Reserves: Codie Taylor, Wyatt Crockett, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, TJ Perenara, Lima Sopaga, Anton Lienert-Brown.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

Very happy with this side, it's literally exactly what I would've gone for. Can't wait to see that back 3 in action, probably the most dangerous attacking back 3 we've seen in a couple years.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Good call on Hames and nice to see young D-Mac getting another start.
Now you Kiwi boys have been talking him up all through the Super Rugby season and being in London I don't get to see much of that so I've been wondering all season why you guys were hyping him and now after a few starts he is showing real promise as an attacking weapon and he's not too bad on defence.
He has made some basic errors but he's a rookie and he has offered a lot more on attack which takes some of the heat off Barrett who seems to be held up as the guy who has to get us out of a tight spot everytime.
If we have more attacking weapons it means Barrett can get some room to move instead of two defenders always shadowing him.
If D-Mac is going to be a constant then let him have a crack at the kicking duties.
I like the look of the kid. He's got pace, guile, a step and he backs himself. He seems to be growing into the role.
I said it before, this is a bad time for Jordi Barrett to be injured.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

If we have more attacking weapons it means Barrett can get some room to move instead of two defenders always shadowing him.
If D-Mac is going to be a constant then let him have a crack at the kicking duties.
I like the look of the kid. He's got pace, guile, a step and he backs himself. He seems to be growing into the role.
I said it before, this is a bad time for Jordi Barrett to be injured.

Couldn't agree more. He is a better goal-kicker than Beaudy so since he is now a starter he should take the goal-kicking duties. It would also take the unnecessary pressure off Barrett and let him carve up like we know he can. Barrett can still take the touch finders because he is excellent at making meters on those.

 

[The Jones Boy]

I am also of the opinion that we had better be watchful of the Bokke.
They are not the class of 95 or 2007, but they are on the rise and they are the auld enemy.
There are only 2 teams South Africans support, the Springboks and anyone playing New Zealand.
They cannot be underestimated.
What they might lack in cohesion or tactical coaching they can make up for in pure desire to post that most desired of wins over the oldest and most difficult foe for over a century.
The All Blacks.
I gotta tell ya, I feckin' hate losing to the Boks.
It's a worse feeling than losing to anyone else, anyone... maybe not Japan, Lol.
Sorry... couldn't resist.

 

[mania]

I gotta tell ya, I feckin' hate losing to the Boks.

nah i dont mind losing to the boks. theyre the ones to usually give us a good kick up the bum when we need it and remind us that we need to play good quality rugby and up our game. 2009 was a prime example and that assisted us in going on to win the 2011 WC

its the English i hate losing to.

Daggs injured. shoulder suffered in the game , tho i reckon its precautionary headInjury protocol. and good on the ABs management. whilst this is an important game; Daggs health is more so.

 

[SomeOke]

I am also of the opinion that we had better be watchful of the Bokke.
They are not the class of 95 or 2007, but they are on the rise and they are the auld enemy.
There are only 2 teams South Africans support, the Springboks and anyone playing New Zealand.
They cannot be underestimated.
What they might lack in cohesion or tactical coaching they can make up for in pure desire to post that most desired of wins over the oldest and most difficult foe for over a century.
The All Blacks.
I gotta tell ya, I feckin' hate losing to the Boks.
It's a worse feeling than losing to anyone else, anyone... maybe not Japan, Lol.
Sorry... couldn't resist.

Italy feels quite bad as well .

I don't hate the AB's I watch too much Super Rugby for that, generally prefer the ABs to beat the English, at least the ABs are good winners.

ABs named a good side, the only players I wouldn't have selected are SBW (out of form, more of a liability than an asset this year IMO) and Liam Squire (a handy player but not to the ABs usualy high standard for me) but if you consider that the questionable players in the Bok side are Cassiem, and basically the entire backline I think you have this handily. AB's by 15 is a good shout, 10 would be nice.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

pretty happy with that team, the one thing i do struggle with is guys like fifita, was really good last week and now out of the squad, these guys get less time to gel as a team than say a super team and that must be even harder if so many guys are in and out. not a huge gripe or anything

edit, hansen has said fifita took a bit of a shoulder knock so o take back my comments

 

[Larksea]

the back 3 better prepare for a barrage!
Argentina had a bit of success kicking to dmac, a lot of that was just very good kicking and pressure but he had to cover a lot of ground to get to the kicks. maybe they had prepared for the kicks to go longer? It all seemed to go to dmac as well NMS and Dagg didn't seem to get any or share the load. It is an area I would actually say dmac is pretty good at, or considering his size he is very good at. missing those kicks was very unlike him and I think he can turn it around.

 

[Bob]

Hope Hames brings it. He was a walking penalty for the Chiefs. Not sold on squire. Sooner Kaino returns the better. Barrett's due a blinder.

 

[Larksea]

makes sense now why Dagg wasn't selected. it seems his ongoing Knee injury is still an issue and he may have to take some time away to get it right.
I think if it wasn't for this injury he would have been selected at 14, we are really short on experience without him and the current balance is very unlike what is par for the AB's back 3 selection.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...daggs-injury-steve-hansen-it-doesnt-look-good

 

[Kiwiwomble]

its now i really regret not giving someone like patrick osbourne a cap...just to lock him down

 

[Red Enigma]

Got a feeling that test sides should start settling on their best teams sooner rather than later if they want to build combinations, give players job security and confidence and not be left behind by teams that are settled.

SBW would not be in my best team and given the inexperienced back three combination for this test, another bad day for SBW could be disastrous. Hansen blames Perenara for the slow AB backline, ye the same halfback served the far speedier "Canes backline extremely well. The problem lies at 12 and 13 and playing Aaron Smith will not fix it.

I expect a big kicking game from the Boks and even though our defenders (10,11,14,15) are pretty good under the high ball they will all be manhandled by the Boks to the extent I foresee turnovers from mauls.

Probably put 75% of my wager on the AB's to win with no points in and 25% on the ABs to win by less than 15%. (That's right, should break even if ABs have big win .)

Wish for the test - A Coles try down the blind.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

agree re combos and getting them to play a few more games together in a row

the rush defense was also coming up on barrett quick which slowed down the distribution. i think if they really want quick ball this would have been the game to start smith and sopoaga