[2017 Rugby Championship] Round 4: New Zealand v South Africa (16/09/2017)

[TRF_heineken]

Venue: QBE Stadium, Albany
Time: 09:35 CAT (SA, GMT+2
​

Teams

New Zealand: 15 Damian McKenzie, 14 Nehe Milner-Skudder, 13 Ryan Crotty, 12 Sonny Bill Williams, 11 Rieko Ioane, 10 Beauden Barrett, 9 Aaron Smith, 8 Kieran Read (captain), 7 Sam Cane, 6 Liam Square, 5 Sam Whitelock, 4 Brodie Retallick, 3 Nepo Laulala, 2 Dane Coles, 1 Kane Hames

Substitutes: 16 Codie Taylor, 17 Wyatt Crockett, 18 Ofa Tu'ungafasi, 19 Scott Barrett, 20 Ardie Savea, 21 TJ Perenara, 22 Lima Sopoaga, 23 Anton Lienert-Brown

South Africa: 15 Andries Coetzee, 14 Raymond Rhule, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Jan Serfontein, 11 Courtnall Skosan, 10 Elton Jantjies, 9 Francois Hougaard, 8 Uzair Cassiem, 7 Jean-Luc du Preez, 6 Siya Kolisi, 5 Franco Mostert, 4 Eben Etzebeth (captain), 3 Ruan Dreyer, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Trevor Nyakane, 19 Lood de Jager, 20 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 21 Rudy Paige, 22 Handre Pollard, 23 Damian de Allende

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

If the Boks played the way they did in the first test with their exciting backs then we might have been in for a contest. The way that appeared to have been agreed at the indaba and that even the more tactically conservative Bulls and Sharks were trying to adopt this season.

It is clear that this is not the AC way and I'd suggest for all the good will AC has earnt for the results this year, he is fundamentally misreading modern rugby and hell bent on playing ten years in the past, but with players who excel in the much looser, running rugby Super Rugby style. I'd argue in hindsight that the Boks have moved away from the SARU's 2017 Super Rugby style a little bit more with each match since that first test against France, despite the players showing they can have success with that style.

Fullback, scrumhalf and fly half all showed major limitations with their territorial kicking last week, although I'd argue not as bad as they were in 2016. They will always be poor when their club side massively prioritises other skillsets and tactics over kicking away early phase ball. The wingers aren't accustomed to kick, chase and aerial challenges either.

The Boks are good defensively and the ABs are strangely vulnerable in recent months, so this won't be a blowout. But AC will roll out last weeks tactics again. Tactics that mean the Boks will not ship loads of points, but will at no point look like winning this match. For a neutral wanting a contest for this tournament that is tragic (in rugby terms).

 

[Larksea]

yeah this is an interesting matchup. The Springboks are looking a lot better and while they still have things to work on they are much better than they have been recently and the team culture looks much improved and some key players look more settled and experienced in test footy.

in contrast the AB's have really been unsettled. The Lions tour threw a spanner in the works. The players put hard yards into super rugby, we had 4 teams involved in the finals and games against the lions then straight into a lions test series without a chance to really warm up, we have had to sprinkle in new players and now we've lost our two world class first choice Props to injury.

Also this game is not at eden park, north shore is known for its ex-pat South African population, i think this is the best chance the springboks have had to beat the AB's in NZ for a very long time.

AB selections are going to be critical.
Aaron Smith will be back
Whitelock will be back
I'm sure Squire will be back
I think its likely Ioane will be back at 11
Crotty will probably be back.

Will Crockett or Hames start at loosehead? Moody has become such a critical player and persisting with Crockett who is surely coming to the end of his test career has prevented us from building depth at losehead. Hames was excellent toward the end of super rugby I hope he can find that form and he also needs to work on his discipline and composure.

AB's will somehow have to manage these changes and also build on their previous performances.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

if Ioane comes back into 11 how do the other outsides shuffle?

I would love to see Sopoaga at 10, barrett at 15 and NMS at 14

More likely would just be Ioane 11, DMac 15 and NMS 14 and Barrett 10

you can see that although dagg played fine i thought NMS just showed a bit more spark

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

if rhule starts the springboks have no chance, he makes the other backs work so much harder in defense

they also need to throw last weeks gameplan with the AB's tape... use a style that fits your players and stop kicking it away from anywhere on the field

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

if Ioane comes back into 11 how do the other outsides shuffle?

I would love to see Sopoaga at 10, barrett at 15 and NMS at 14

More likely would just be Ioane 11, DMac 15 and NMS 14 and Barrett 10

you can see that although dagg played fine i thought NMS just showed a bit more spark

Shag said that he sees Dagg as the leader of the back 3, so I think he'll start. Would rather see NMS though, he offers more and liked you said showed more spark in the last game than Dagg.
Don't like the idea of Beaudy at 15, he can stay where he is. I do think he should relieve the kicking duties to DMac though, it doesn't make sense having someone take the kicks who isn't even the best kicker on the park.

What I think we'll see:
11. Ioane
14. Dagg
15. DMac

What I'd like to see:
11. Ioane
14. NMS
15. DMac

 

[Kiwiwomble]

the biggest problem with DMac kicking is that face he makes when lining up...... (this is the official DMac emoji)

 

[Larksea]

the biggest problem with DMac kicking is that face he makes when lining up......

I dont think the problem is the face, I think the problem is that the TV producers focus in on it every time he takes a kick!
All kickers have a ritual, the smile actually makes a lot of sense. Just allows him to relax, get into his routine and block things out.

I think the most likely side is
1, Crockett
2, Coles
3, laulala
4, Whitelock
5, Retalick
6, Squire
7, Cane
8, Read
9, A. Smith
10, Barrett
11, Ioane
12, SBW
13, Crotty
14, Dagg
15, Dmac

Codie Taylor, Cane Hames, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, Scott Barrett, A. Savea, Perenara, Lima Sopoaga, ALB

 

[Kiwiwomble]

think you're probably right

not sure why ALB isn't getting more starts, SBW has been solid but not match winning and at 32 he's not the future

 

[Durbanite]

Pity Coenie is out but I think we'll hold our own in the scrum. Hoping for less passivity on defense and an emphasis on attacking the breakdown as I think it'll be a massive contest. Glad it's Owens who is policing it.

If we can start as well as we did in Christchurch last year and then follow through in the second half without letting the kiwis run away with it I'll be pleased. Playing the full 80 will be critical and I think our replacements will be a key factor if we are going to hold our own. I think the bok management implementing standard conditioning practise amongst all the SR franchises is paying dividens in this respect.

I'm betting AC will stick with Rhule seeing as the Aussie test was the best chance to let Leyds have a healthy run off the bench and even if he is in this week's team I don't see AC giving Leyds much of a go when the pressure sets in.

Interested to see what role Pollard will play in this test if any, he has had some good touches against NZ opposition in the past. I'd be interested to see what he could bring in at centre off the bench, perhaps he could make the back line a touch more dynamic. I don't see him at 10 after having zero game time.

If we kick for territory and wait for the All Blacks to slip up we're doomed, so I expect to see a much more aggressive and direct approach on attack, and that we will not be as passive on defense as the Aus game with more emphasis on smothering ball and disrupting the kiwis early before they start firing.

I'm eager to see the team chosen, mostly to see who AC will pick at 4 and the back 3, and I'd like to think 8 was a bit more of an open as well but expecting to see a very similar lineup to the Aus game.

 

[mania]

crocketts an impact prop. hames has gotta start
ALB and crotty are our best center pairing. whilst they aren't the strongest, fastest or most powerful they're smarter than any combo out there and i value brains above brawn in rugby

either way, i dont think ive felt this excited about a boks game in years. i sooooo hope boks bring it and bring it all. theyre shaping up really well but now that shape needs to be tested at the highest echelon of competition.

a good ol traditional toe to toe slugfest between honoured enemies. this is gonna be great.
lets pray for an epic contest played in the great spirit with no injuries

 

[Larksea]

its true Crockett hasn't been a regular starter for years even at super rugby level, but he has to take that role as the experienced guy. I think its very unlikely Hames is going to come straight into the squad and start this game but if he does a good job for the final 30-40min I wouldn't be surprised to see him start subsequent tests

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Whilst I don't love Mark Reason, there are certainly a few points in this article I agree with:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opini...rake-on-sonny-bill-williams-and-the-ab-attack

 

[mania]

its true Crockett hasn't been a regular starter for years even at super rugby level, but he has to take that role as the experienced guy. I think its very unlikely Hames is going to come straight into the squad and start this game but if he does a good job for the final 30-40min I wouldn't be surprised to see him start subsequent tests

crockett is a better impact player than a starter. crockett isnt the best scrummager we have, but he has a decent running and tackling game

 

[mania]

Whilst I don't love Mark Reason, there are certainly a few points in this article I agree with:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opini...rake-on-sonny-bill-williams-and-the-ab-attack

even a broken watch is right twice a day

 

[mania]

markReason at his comedic best!!

"He (Hanson) and his coaches knew two and a half years ago that the future was Cruden. But for the knee injury I suspect that he would have kept Carter out of the World Cup final."

"Don't get me wrong. Barrett is still a magnificent player, very likely the greatest fullback in the world. " obviously he hasnt heard of benSmith

so in this article, despite alluding that cruden was better than carter, he then goes on about how good carters skills and decision making were. shouldnt he be praising cruden?

 

[InsaneAsylum]

the biggest problem with DMac kicking is that face he makes when lining up...... (this is the official DMac emoji)

hahaha nah that's the Owen Farrell emoji

 

[Kiwiwomble]

hahaha nah that's the Owen Farrell emoji

Can they be hemisphere specific?

 

[InsaneAsylum]

Barrett is simply to good a player to not wear 10, despite his kicking going from inconsistent to abysmal in the game against the Pumas. However is there an unwritten rule in NZ that the 10 must take the kicks?

Remember all the penalties and conversions the great Stephen Larkham kicked? nope, neither do I, because we had Burke and Flatley. It did hurt us when they retired as Mortlock took up the kicking duties and wasn't much better than Barrett. Point being Larkham as great as he was a distributor and a general play kicker, was rarely used as a goal kicker.

 

[Larksea]

I wish the AB's would get out of this thing we have, where the 10 does all the goal kicking and kicks for touch from penalties. The positive is that roles are clearly defined but there are many situations here we have a guy on field for a kick that would be better suited depending on the situation. Be it Dagg for a touch finder or of Barrett has missed a couple and is having an off day then let dmac take over, it doesn't need to be a big deal

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I was just about to say daggs got a big punt, he use to kick goals when with the highlanders too

 

[The Jones Boy]

For a long time it was considered the duty of the fullback to be the kicker.
It is a development of the modern game that the first five has to be the kicker.
Alan Hewson was a long serving All Black and Wellington full back and he took all the place kicks. He was a classy goal kicker. He made a dent in the Boks in the highly controversial 1981 tour.
Fergie McCormack was a long serving Canterbury and All Black full back and he was our kicker as well.
Joe Karam was our kicker and fullback in the early 1970's.
Who can forget the great Don 'The Boot' Clarke who was our phenomenal kicker and fullback for about 8 years from the mid-50-s to the mid 60's.

From Aussie it's hard to forget Roger Gould. Later Matt Burke.
For France, Serge Blanco.



I thik it puts too much pressure on the first five to 'have to kick' the penalties as well as all the other game management duties they perform.
Dan Carter stands out for me because his all round game was excellent and his goal kicking was of such a high standard.
If Barrett gets his kicking boots on he will hold the jersey for ten years. The other aspects of his game are amazing, and his turn of pace is electric.

 

[Larksea]

I was just about to say daggs got a big punt, he use to kick goals when with the highlanders too

yeah Dagg is an amazing goal kicker, that year he kicked for the highlanders was more than impressive he may have been the best player in super rugby that year. but he's been pretty clear that he doesn't really want the responsibility and he has only taken a couple of kicks for the AB's as a backup when there has been an injury.

But even kicking for touch there are a lot of situations where he could gain an extra 15m or so depending on the side of the field etc. There was a long period where Crudens kicks for touch were pretty poor on distance and bender, dagg or two others could have done a lot better.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Nigel Owens is the referee for this match.

With Coenie Oosthuizen out, the question will be if Nyakane will start, or if Dreyer or Wilco Louw will jump ahead of Nyakane in the starting position at tighthead? There are also talks that Jean-Luc Du Preez might start ahead of Cassiem at no. 8.

As for the Backline. I can't help but feel that Pollard might slot in somewhere in the starting lineup. AC has been talking him up for the past 2 weeks, but didn't use him at all against the Wallabies. The question is if he will slot in at 10 or 12? If I were to guess, he'll slot in at 12 with Jan moving to 13. Then it's a question of Kriel moving to 14 in place of Rhule or to 15 in place of Coetzee.

I just can't see us keeping the backline as it is after the performance last week.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Pity about Coenie but I really rate Louw and Du Toit and think they should both be in the mix with Oosthuizen and Kitshoff as our go-to props with Nyakane in the squad as back up for both though that may be unfair to keep him out because of his versatility.

Anyway. I'm just hope we keep it respectable. If we were to be accurate in our decision making and execution I might give us a shot but I havn't been convinced by some of our backline players in particular throughout this year and find I am losing faith in more of them as we go along but a lot of that can probably be down to AC gaining more and more influence again as we take one step forward and hopefully just a half step back each game but I kinda get the idea we're losing ground again. More so from the way we play rather than the actual results.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Jaco Kriel has returned to South Africa after suffering a shoulder injury. http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/RugbyChampionship/bok-blow-as-jaco-kriel-returns-home-20170912

So Du Preez will in all likelihood start in Kriel's place...

 

[SomeOke]

Jaco Kriel out with a shoulder injury.
Honestly I don't think we're in the right shape to challenge the AB's yet, I'd like to avoid last years blow-outs of 30 and 40 points respectively.
If we can keep it within 10 I'd be a very happy man.

Edit: Ninja'd anyone know who is likely to come into the squad?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Jaco Kriel out with a shoulder injury.
Honestly I don't think we're in the right shape to challenge the AB's yet, I'd like to avoid last years blow-outs of 30 and 40 points respectively.
If we can keep it within 10 I'd be a very happy man.

Edit: Ninja'd anyone know who is likely to come into the squad?

Well the 2 Du Preez brothers are already with the Squad... So my guess is one would start and the other would be on the bench.

 

[SomeOke]

Well the 2 Du Preez brothers are already with the Squad... So my guess is one would start and the other would be on the bench.

That make sense, there is also the option of PsdT either starting at, or covering flank.

Edit: Also according to local rugby news, the back three will remain unchanged for anyone who was hopeful.
In Rhule's defense it looks like he has worked really hard to shut the naysayers up. That said I still don't think he's international quality, but if I'm being harsh you could say the same about our entire back three.
I do think we are lacking some brutal world class backs, to be fair their aren't too many options (Rohan, Combrink are the obvious ones, I'd include Leyds in their too). There are a few young guys who could get their however (Nkosi, Senatla, Gelant, Willemse, Bosch could all very easily be world class).

 

[TRF_heineken]

That make sense, there is also the option of PsdT either starting at, or covering flank.

Edit: Also according to local rugby news, the back three will remain unchanged for anyone who was hopeful.
In Rhule's defense it looks like he has worked really hard to shut the naysayers up. That said I still don't think he's international quality, but if I'm being harsh you could say the same about our entire back three.
I do think we are lacking some brutal world class backs, to be fair their aren't too many options (Rohan, Combrink are the obvious ones, I'd include Leyds in their too). There are a few young guys who could get their however (Nkosi, Senatla, Gelant, Willemse, Bosch could all very easily be world class).

It would be a bad move IMHO to play PSDT at Flanker or no. 8. Especially after his performance last weekend....