[2018 6 Nations] Round 5 : England v Ireland (17/03/2018)

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The whole league structure over here is a ******* mess.

All levels of rugby would be better off using a system based off the NFL/NZ structure.

I genuinely think almost every single element of English/UK rugby could be improved with an overhaul.

What have a Second league with the traditional clubs (Like say Mitre 10 cup with the likes of Tigers, Saints etc etc), then have regional type teams in another league with the traditional teams feeding into the regional ones?

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

All of these ideas **** me off actually. England has one of the richest rugby club histories in the world and its not fair on supporters or players to say "oh we're not the best international team in the world, lets destroy all the clubs financially and start again". It feels like people looking for a random excuse without looking it through. Like what is the necessity of any of these ideas? Football manages fine, its all about the clubs just managing their players better. The central contract idea from the last page is the only reform I have seen that isnt stupid as ****

 

[ratsapprentice]

What have a Second league with the traditional clubs (Like say Mitre 10 cup with the likes of Tigers, Saints etc etc), then have regional type teams in another league with the traditional teams feeding into the regional ones?

Fewer games, more condensed talent, more gametime for junior players.

Immitate the US collegiate --> Pro leagues, and the NZ Club --> Region system.

Two of the major problems in English rugby are;
1) Not enough talent to have a competetive league of 12 teams - we simply don't have the players to do it.

2) Too high a workload - this is a global problem, but it's worse here than in most places.

There are lots of possible ways to do it, but the sport in England has it's hands tied behind it's back as far as I'm concerned.

 

[ratsapprentice]

All of these ideas **** me off actually. England has one of the richest rugby club histories in the world and its not fair on supporters or players to say "oh we're not the best international team in the world, lets destroy all the clubs financially and start again". It feels like people looking for a random excuse without looking it through. Like what is the necessity of any of these ideas? Football manages fine, its all about the clubs just managing their players better. The central contract idea from the last page is the only reform I have seen that isnt stupid as ****

Football is a completely different sport.

Copying their structures is fundamentally flawed, because Rugby is a significantly more abrasive sport physically, and we do not have anywhere near the volume of participation, and therefore elite talent.
Look to other contact sports, not football.

Significant changes to English rugby do not necessitate destruction of the clubs.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

All of these ideas **** me off actually. England has one of the richest rugby club histories in the world and its not fair on supporters or players to say "oh we're not the best international team in the world, lets destroy all the clubs financially and start again". It feels like people looking for a random excuse without looking it through. Like what is the necessity of any of these ideas? Football manages fine, its all about the clubs just managing their players better. The central contract idea from the last page is the only reform I have seen that isnt stupid as ****

Prem rugby isn't exactly strong financially as some like to think alot of clubs don't have the fanbase to prop them up, if the money-men leave some clubs then it will be up **** creek.

Could be wrong but International football is pretty shite currently most of the games are friendlies.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Football is a completely different sport.

Copying their structures is fundamentally flawed, because Rugby is a significantly more abrasive sport physically, and we do not have anywhere near the volume of participation, and therefore elite talent.
Look to other contact sports, not football.

Obviously, I'm not saying we should copy them, but we already play significantly less games in a season than they do and it does all just come down to management at the end of the day. Maybe we should stop trying to find structural excuses for why we are not the all blacks and just focus on playing our own game to the best of our ability. Irish rugby is doing well at the moment, but good form comes and goes. There is no point the RFU throwing a tantrum because we aren't number 1 and destroying over 150 years of history in some cases

*just saw your edit* I can't see a way that a league which is already so in debt can lose it's status as the premier league in it's country and somehow maintain the same level of viewership and/or investment. If it looses that, then the clubs collapse. Just look at what happend to London Welsh after dropping one teir

Prem rugby isn't exactly strong financially as some like to think alot of clubs don't have the fanbase to prop them up, if the money-men leave some clubs then it will be up **** creek.

Could be wrong but International football is pretty shite currently most of the games are friendlies.

Obviously, and there is a **** ton of debt in the Prem, but, and this may just be me personally, I would take Quins success over a long period before a six nations ***le any day. That might be the difference. If thats not your attitude towards Tigers then fair enough, but one of the things I have always loved about rugby is the grassroots element of it and I feel like the franchise or reigional system loses that. Quins and Bath have both hit 150 years recently and it just isnt fair to destory that because England are in a rut

 

[ratsapprentice]

Obviously, I'm not saying we should copy them, but we already play significantly less games in a season than they do and it does all just come down to management at the end of the day. Maybe we should stop trying to find structural excuses for why we are not the all blacks and just focus on playing our own game to the best of our ability. Irish rugby is doing well at the moment, but good form comes and goes. There is no point the RFU throwing a tantrum because we aren't number 1 and destroying over 150 years of history in some cases

Why are you using them as a benchmark though? It's a different type of sport entirely...

You would agree that, for example, American Football is a much closer match than Soccer?
NFL teams play 16 games per regular-season and have between 7 and 5 months off/pre-season.
That's not also taking into account the significantly reduced volume of in play time per game. (although the impacts are, on the whole, greater)

That's literally half the number of games, and double the time off that an English international rugby player has every year. That's a much, much more reasonable period in which to get into good condition for the season, and to maintain it over too.

Comparing our sport to Soccer is unbelievably dumb at best, and wilfully ignorant at worst.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Why are you using them as a benchmark though? It's a different type of sport entirely...

You would agree that, for example, American Football is a much closer match than Soccer?
NFL teams play 16 games per regular-season and have between 7 and 5 months off/pre-season.
That's not also taking into account the significantly reduced volume of in play time per game. (although the impacts are, on the whole, greater)

That's literally half the number of games, and double the time off that an English international rugby player has every year. That's a much, much more reasonable period in which to get into good condition for the season, and to maintain it over too.

Comparing our sport to Soccer is unbelievably dumb at best, and wilfully ignorant at worst.

Ok, I take your point, albeit a bit rude but hey ho. The fact remains that the current system that Ireland use, *in the long term* has had a minute difference in terms of games played.
For example, Rob Kearney has played 284 pro games in his professional career and Mike Brown, has played 60 more than that. SINCE 2005! Thats about 4 games a season more. Tiny tiny difference. BTW, I chose those two because they are about the same age, same position, and both made club debut's in '05 and International debuts in'07

 

[MarkyH]

Central contracts for EPS squad players to limit playing time for Premiership Rugby. 2 x EPS squad announcements a season as players change.

Add to that a split the Prem into 2 Leagues of 8 as a Prem 1 and Prem 2 with relegation between them, but all comes under the 'Premiership' so the same funding goes into both. Add a 16 team knockout RFU cup, bin the Anglo Welsh. We get more teams into the two divsions, the promoted Championship team won't be facing all the top teams and can adapt better.

Fallout from this is less games, less meaningless games, more rest for players and maintains a similar domestic structure

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Anyone who has seen my posts know i'm Tigers----> England and i'm not for the regional system BUT I do agree that the Club rugby needs a change up.

Fewer games, more condensed talent, more gametime for junior players.

Immitate the US collegiate --> Pro leagues, and the NZ Club --> Region system.

Two of the major problems in English rugby are;
1) Not enough talent to have a competetive league of 12 teams - we simply don't have the players to do it.

2) Too high a workload - this is a global problem, but it's worse here than in most places.

There are lots of possible ways to do it, but the sport in England has it's hands tied behind it's back as far as I'm concerned.

I think the talent is there to support a 12 comp league. I mean we have how many players the league is usually competitive bar 1 or 2 clubs and how much would those clubs be better off if it was ringfenced. (Which i'm not a fan of but see the pluses).
BUT our club development pathway is shite.

For me I would like a NRL style system off.
Junior U20 league
Feeder/Affiliated league with Champ clubs and Prem clubs because let's face it only one champ team could survive in the prem and that is because they have a rich owner.
Premiership.

Now that would be easier with a 10 team league.
Televise the U20's league and Feeder leagues increase the revenue coming in. Who wouldn't watch say a summer U20's league on the tele. (Personally i wish English rugby looked at doing something in the summer no rival sports on the weekend a junior league would just be perfect IMO)

In an ideal world I think the prem should be 10 team league but will never happen but if the club system could get more 19-25 year olds involved in proper game time it might encourage them to play them instead of the England players for something like 6 more weeks of the season.

Let's face it if a club can't handle say 9/10 games of a 22 week comp without their England players then they shouldn't be in the league and it highlights their own problems development wise. (also no AWC league would mean clubs don't have to worry about playing club men in those 6 games, and clubs will have to play their youngsters in a comp of their own so don't have to worry about having an academy team v a basically full senior teams).

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Central contracts for EPS squad players to limit playing time for Premiership Rugby. 2 x EPS squad announcements a season as players change.

Add to that a split the Prem into 2 Leagues of 8 as a Prem 1 and Prem 2 with relegation between them, but all comes under the 'Premiership' so the same funding goes into both. Add a 16 team knockout RFU cup, bin the Anglo Welsh. We get more teams into the two divsions, the promoted Championship team won't be facing all the top teams and can adapt better.

What about an East - West split with two pools. Each Play each other once and the top 4 in each pool go to knockout

West - Exeter, Worcester, Bath, Gloucester, Sale, Newcastle,
East - Quins, Sarries, LIR, Wasps, Northampton, Leiceter

 

[ratsapprentice]

Ok, I take your point, albeit a bit rude but hey ho. The fact remains that the current system that Ireland use, *in the long term* has had a minute difference in terms of games played.
For example, Rob Kearney has played 284 pro games in his professional career and Mike Brown, has played 60 more than that. SINCE 2005! Thats about 4 games a season more. Tiny tiny difference. BTW, I chose those two because they are about the same age, same position, and both made club debut's in '05 and International debuts in'07

Not my intention.

I'm not suggesting we use the system Ireland use, although it is better than ours. As has been demonstrated since the Lions.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Anyone who has seen my posts know i'm Tigers----> England and i'm not for the regional system BUT I do agree that the Club rugby needs a change up.




I think the talent is there to support a 12 comp league. I mean we have how many players the league is usually competitive bar 1 or 2 clubs and how much would those clubs be better off if it was ringfenced. (Which i'm not a fan of but see the pluses).
BUT our club development pathway is shite.

For me I would like a NRL style system off.
Junior U20 league
Feeder/Affiliated league with Champ clubs and Prem clubs because let's face it only one champ team could survive in the prem and that is because they have a rich owner.
Premiership.

Now that would be easier with a 10 team league.
Televise the U20's league and Feeder leagues increase the revenue coming in. Who wouldn't watch say a summer U20's league on the tele. (Personally i wish English rugby looked at doing something in the summer no rival sports on the weekend a junior league would just be perfect IMO)

In an ideal world I think the prem should be 10 team league but will never happen but if the club system could get more 19-25 year olds involved in proper game time it might encourage them to play them instead of the England players for something like 6 more weeks of the season.

Let's face it if a club can't handle say 9/10 games of a 22 week comp without their England players then they shouldn't be in the league and it highlights their own problems development wise. (also no AWC league would mean clubs don't have to worry about playing club men in those 6 games, and clubs will have to play their youngsters in a comp of their own so don't have to worry about having an academy team v a basically full senior teams).

Honestly, that doesn't sound too bad at all

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Not my intention.

I'm not suggesting we use the system Ireland use, although it is better than ours. As has been demonstrated since the Lions.

No worries

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The whole league structure over here is a ******* mess.

All levels of rugby would be better off using a system based off the NFL/NZ structure.

I genuinely think almost every single element of English/UK rugby could be improved with an overhaul.

Schmidt and Nucifora came in and implemented the NZ system with an Irish twist and the success has been sustained and unprecedented. A set up thats main goal is international success is optimal and the challenge is putting a process in place that suits the system that's already there and doesn't disenfranchise fans. It's hard and it isn't perfect here, a quick search of "Simon Zebo" on Twitter is proof of that but we're leagues ahead of the rest of Europe in terms of getting the most out of our resources.

Obviously, I'm not saying we should copy them, but we already play significantly less games in a season than they do and it does all just come down to management at the end of the day. Maybe we should stop trying to find structural excuses for why we are not the all blacks and just focus on playing our own game to the best of our ability. Irish rugby is doing well at the moment, but good form comes and goes. There is no point the RFU throwing a tantrum because we aren't number 1 and destroying over 150 years of history in some cases

*just saw your edit* I can't see a way that a league which is already so in debt can lose it's status as the premier league in it's country and somehow maintain the same level of viewership and/or investment. If it looses that, then the clubs collapse. Just look at what happend to London Welsh after dropping one teir



Obviously, and there is a **** ton of debt in the Prem, but, and this may just be me personally, I would take Quins success over a long period before a six nations ***le any day. That might be the difference. If thats not your attitude towards Tigers then fair enough, but one of the things I have always loved about rugby is the grassroots element of it and I feel like the franchise or reigional system loses that. Quins and Bath have both hit 150 years recently and it just isnt fair to destory that because England are in a rut

You definitely don't lose the grassroots element in the provincial system. Every league in the country plays under the Leinster, Connacht, Munster or Ulster brand, and most clubs get a pro to make an appearance at least once a year while a few have them as coaches. The provinces look after all clubs and schools very well and to the best of their abilities.

 

[MarkyH]

What about an East - West split with two pools. Each Play each other once and the top 4 in each pool go to knockout

West - Exeter, Worcester, Bath, Gloucester, Sale, Newcastle,
East - Quins, Sarries, LIR, Wasps, Northampton, Leiceter

Yep, I'm juggling baking, cooking and drinking so I've not given it much thought, but a similar idea. Quite like that too.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Schmidt and Nucifora came in and implemented the NZ system with an Irish twist and the success has been sustained and unprecedented. A set up thats main goal is international success is optimal and the challenge is putting a process in place that suits the system that's already there and doesn't disenfranchise fans. It's hard and it isn't perfect here, a quick search of "Simon Zebo" on Twitter is proof of that but we're leagues ahead of the rest of Europe in terms of getting the most out of our resources.


You definitely don't lose the grassroots element in the provincial system. Every league in the country plays under the Leinster, Connacht, Munster or Ulster brand, and most clubs get a pro to make an appearance at least once a year while a few have them as coaches. The provinces look after all clubs and schools very well and to the best of their abilities.

I think the reigional system worked for u guys in '95 because they were the only professional clubs. As rugby became a pro sport, so did your 4 provinces. It's very different to creating new pro clubs almost 25 years later

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think the reigional system worked for u guys in '95 because they were the only professional clubs. As rugby became a pro sport, so did your 4 provinces. It's very different to creating new pro clubs almost 25 years later

What do you think Coventry Wasps are?

County rugby used to be a big deal, now it isn't... things change.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

But England shouldn't need a regional system.
If England can't support 12 teams then may BOD help us all.
It isn't like Ireland teams don't play games without internationals.

Here an idea simple idea make all academy products outside the cap for that one club regardless of being an England international or not, give the academy players a proper pathway and make the clubs play them in the prem for 2 months of the season.
Clubs can ***** and moan about being punished for producing England players but if they produced them by themselves they could have the cap to bring in cover and if they brought in an England player from elsewhere then tough **** you pinch a player from another prem club academy system and you shouldn't get the extra help. Just my 2 cents.

RE Cov Wasps i hate them.

i'm 100% club over country, but If england is successful more people will watch and play Rugby than if tigers was successful.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Elliot Daly confirmed Owen Farrell as my favourite English player yesterday for me. He pushed and mouthed off to Ringrose, respect your superiors Elliot!