[2024 Six Nations] England vs Ireland - 09/03/24

[Which Tyler]

I think muffin maybe aiming towards that Ireland could win the tournament on 3 wins, with England coming 2nd with a possible 4 wins?

I've never been a fan of bonus points (certainly not in a short competition like the 6N or RWC) but they're here, they're not new, and they're not worth complaining about.

 

[munstermuffin]

How so? Surely that just shows how competitive the tournament is.

I'd disagree like it'd show the standard is very poor. Like realistically Italy should have beaten France and strong sense couldb've beaten England.
It shows the standards would be slipping.

I'm not saying Ireland are a bad team by any means nor do I think we will loose. I'm just saying in a scenario where we ended up winning a ***le despite loosing our last 2 games then that would be a meh victory.

Regards Saturday. I am quoted elsewhere saying numerous times I think this Scottish team are overhyped and I expect us to win comfortably.
I was also one from the start that said England would be our bogey game even when they were struggling. The difference being even when England are playing poor they do have the depth and quality and issue is usually just getting it to click.

@Quel Carreleur I'd agree on the quality and competitive thing but stats show this has been 1 of the worst for errors also and penalty/conversion rates to scores.
Maybe the game is changing.

Also I should add it not just the BP I'm saying if we won despite loosing our last 2 games it leaves a poor feeling. Again it a scenario I think won't happen as I rate this Ireland team highly and am not for 1 second thinking an away loss to a highly motivated and England team in gear makes you a bad team. It doesn't.

 

[McTallshort]

Agree to disagree on that

 

[ncurd]

I did wonder what caused Furlong to fall back in that manner.

Some force coming in from Genge and probably forearm / shoulder to the side of Furlong's head.

It's a ******* dive that's why. Nobody falls like that.

 

[Reiser99]

When they're not the best available options, or they retire of their own accord.

What we do need, is to get some game time into some 3rd choice players (and hope that Sinckler can rediscover some form) so that when we do move on, the new guys aren't shell shocked at international level.

When there's better propd

Playing devil's advocate here. What happens if we get to say end of 2026 and Cole and Marler retire then or after the 2027 6Ns? Are we really going to wait for it to happen and risk going to the WC with a group of props that only have a handful of caps between them. Genge is the only one who has looked very good at international level outside of Marler and Cole. Stuart still doesn't look like an international. If Genge gets injured we will have no real experience between our props. I'm not sure we can leave it until players naturally surpass them or they choose to retire.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I really think losing to England away by a last minute drop goal shouldn't justify the hate on Murray etc. - disappointing to see really as I've absolutely loved this team for years now.

Hate, no. Criticism, yes. There were players who weren't good enough in the biggest challenge. With guys like Crowley and Joe it's about learning and moving on. POM, Furlong and Murray need to do better though, they've been there and done it and should be held at a higher standard.

Teams evolve and a bit of evolution is needed. We've done well and are in good shape in a few positions that I thought would be problem positions 10 and 6. I think some issues are still there with prop and scrum half depth and it won't be long before a new centre or two is needed.

POM has enough credit in the bank to keep his spot. I don't think Murray does anymore, Casey should get the bench spot.

Why?
For this year, I'd agree that the standard isn't high. Italy can be best pleased of anyone, and if England can repeat against France, then they can also be pleased - but not really anyone else, regardless of last-day results.
But that's about performance, not because of results.

Presuming Ireland win next week, 4 wins and 4-5 bps is a better return than I expected on day 1. Missing the grand slam on Saturday was a dampener but I don't think anyone expected to get out of Marseille and Twickenham with two wins to be honest. England had been so poor that that had shifted but they were massively improved and got a very hard fought win at home.

Provided Ireland win next week, I think they'll quietly be the happiest of the lot. Winning the 6 nations relatively comfortably the year after losing probably the country's greatest ever player and off the back of its single most crushing defeat is a decent return.

It's a ******* dive that's why. Nobody falls like that.

Doesn't matter if he was hit in the head though.

 

[O’Doyle Rules]

Hate, no. Criticism, yes. There were players who weren't good enough in the biggest challenge. With guys like Crowley and Joe it's about learning and moving on. POM, Furlong and Murray need to do better though, they've been there and done it and should be held at a higher standard.

Teams evolve and a bit of evolution is needed. We've done well and are in good shape in a few positions that I thought would be problem positions 10 and 6. I think some issues are still there with prop and scrum half depth and it won't be long before a new centre or two is needed.

POM has enough credit in the bank to keep his spot. I don't think Murray does anymore, Casey should get the bench spot.


Presuming Ireland win next week, 4 wins and 4-5 bps is a better return than I expected on day 1. Missing the grand slam on Saturday was a dampener but I don't think anyone expected to get out of Marseille and Twickenham with two wins to be honest. England had been so poor that that had shifted but they were massively improved and got a very hard fought win at home.

Provided Ireland win next week, I think they'll quietly be the happiest of the lot. Winning the 6 nations relatively comfortably the year after losing probably the country's greatest ever player and off the back of its single most crushing defeat is a decent return.



Doesn't matter if he was hit in the head though.

I'm not buying the Joe Mc hype yet. Had a stormer against France but hasn't been anywhere near it since. Saturday was the type of game he was brought in for to be honest but felt was matched (still think he is going to be class in the next few years). His partner in the row is a different class.

Scrum half is a worry and we're about to lose a very good centre option. Always the way with such great depth in Ireland though on that.

I do think there is a bit of reliance / panic about "where is next generation player". Sometimes you just need to put someone in the team even if not absolutely killing it provincial level. I find wales are very good at it.

Will be very happy if we win a 6N next week. We've historically not done well post world cups and this has been seamless.

 

[ncurd]

Doesn't matter if he was hit in the head though.

This is true and I did think this after posting.

The shot is at too far angle and speed to see what actually re point of contact at least on tiddly screen I was watching it on.

You have to admit its a ridculous dive though. Dude flies up with no upward force, pirouettes and clutches his face.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Feel like if it was as bad as the clip makes it look then Ireland would've been all over the ref/the touch judges making them very aware of it

 

[Saintjay]

Anyone who has contact made with the head should roll around like a shot stag and milk it to high heaven. It's not cheating it's improvised winning.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Anyone who has contact made with the head should roll around like a shot stag and milk it to high heaven. It's not cheating it's improvised winning.

If they do that then I am 100% in the camp of reverse the pen tbh

 

[ncurd]

Anyone who has contact made with the head should roll around like a shot stag and milk it to high heaven. It's not cheating it's improvised winning.

I hope this is tongue in cheek, at the international level most things get caught. During the match, few things go to citing anymore.

I've no desire to watch player milk penalties otherwise you'll get no idea how much real force was involved which matter when adjudicating the level of punishment. It will also call into question points of contacts and such.

 

[O’Doyle Rules]

GBH should be punished.

 

[Saintjay]

I hope this is tongue in cheek, at the international level most things get caught. During the match, few things go to citing anymore.

I've no desire to watch player milk penalties otherwise you'll get no idea how much real force was involved which matter when adjudicating the level of punishment. It will also call into question points of contacts and such.

It was but i do think milking things is creeping into the game.

 

[Crash Hamster]

I'd disagree like it'd show the standard is very poor.

True to some extent.

England have woefully underperformed until the Ireland game.
Ireland have had to accommodate a new fly half after the loss of their all-time great.
Scotland are probably performing more to their natural level and no doubt missed Tuipolutu.
Italy are achieving something at last.
France were obviously more reliant on Mr Medaille d'or than they realised.

Wales are the most concerning. It seems we've all been maintaining the polite fiction that Antipodean wundercoach Warren Gatland is building something special from a rich vein of talented youngsters, but actually he's just capping anyone who's ever visited Llandudno and has a pulse. we all know that even a winning U20 team does not yield a complete team of full internationals two years later. Reffell is heading for a Lions tour (though back row is competitive) and everyone seems to think Jenkins is going to make it as the next Whinge-Jones, but they're really struggling otherwise.

When players like Archie Whossaname (the well-known Bath prop) are getting a cap, it's really just Gatland throwing **** at the wall and seeing what sticks. I can't blame him, the cupboard looks vary bare. I have no idea if young Griffin is a future Lions legend, a journeyman or if he will leave the game due to injury... but neither does anyone else. I listen to my Wales-supporting friends spinning it as an IGWT issue and extolling how this team will come together in a kaleidoscope of brilliance, but my money's on an Emperor's new clothes scenario.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

This is true and I did think this after posting.

The shot is at too far angle and speed to see what actually re point of contact at least on tiddly screen I was watching it on.

You have to admit its a ridculous dive though. Dude flies up with no upward force, pirouettes and clutches his face.

Yeah agreed. There's a few things like this in every one score game that's brought up. Just pointing out that a player's reaction doesn't really come into it.

I'm slow to criticise things like this. It happens at high pace and I reckon players can react badly and not realise until after it's happened.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm not buying the Joe Mc hype yet. Had a stormer against France but hasn't been anywhere near it since. Saturday was the type of game he was brought in for to be honest but felt was matched (still think he is going to be class in the next few years). His partner in the row is a different class.

I buy the hype but more that he will be world class sooner rather than later. Having a lock that looks comfortable at international level at 22 is rare for us and he's shown that he can be destructive.

I think Crowley is in the same boat and both are positives.

Even Sheehan had a lesson in what was his first real high pressure away day.

I don't think we'll have another day like that where set piece and game plan go out the window.

I think you (I think it was you) hit a good point in another post re Doris' carrying also, he's great but can be contained like Saturday. We probably need to either free up VDF to carry like 2022 (Ryan is a loss here) or pick another 6 who can carry very dynamically, Baird, Beirne and Ahern can all be options here. Probably not as urgent because POM still has a tour left in the tank I imagine and next year's away games won't be against a big pack like England's.

There's challenges coming down the line in a few positions as mentioned but the platform we have now to blood some future key players is great. Compare Crowley's intro to international rugby to Marcus Smith's, it's easy v hard mode.

 

[AlRums]

I really don't think they'll win in the Aviva late Saturday afternoon St Patrick's Day weekend. Nothing against Scotland but winning a 6N ***le should be more motivation that a triple crown.

He is a Rolls Royce of a player, but can't help but think Doris hasn't been particularly great. Sometimes he does come across lightweight regardless of footwork in contact.

I really think losing to England away by a last minute drop goal shouldn't justify the hate on Murray etc. - disappointing to see really as I've absolutely loved this team for years now.

Scotland would very much motivated, the first triple crown in 20+ years

 

[AlRums]

Anyone who has contact made with the head should roll around like a shot stag and milk it to high heaven. It's not cheating it's improvised winning.

It's not football

 

[Saintjay]

It's not football

True i can't ever remember fans assaulting refs, blatant cheating, racism, financial cheating etc etc in rugby.