[2018 Super Rugby] Round 11: Bulls vs. Highlanders (28/04/2018)

[TRF_heineken]

Venue: Loftus Versfeld​

Time: 17:15 CAT (SA, GMT+2)​

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

This is the game of the week for me. I'd be getting a wee bit excited for the Bulls if they can pull off a win here. I'll apply the kiss of death by predicting it.

 

[unrated]

It will be interesting to see another NZ team tour SA. I can only recall the Hurricanes having toured SA so far.
The Highlanders will face a tough challenge as the this Africa/Argentina conference is very tight at the moment.

None of the sides can afford a bad result so in that sense it guarantees the spectator that the best version of each team will be facing the Highlanders (and others) on this tour.
I can see both the Bulls and Sharks beating the highlanders in South Africa.

 

[TRF_heineken]

It will be interesting to see another NZ team tour SA. I can only recall the Hurricanes having toured SA so far.
The Highlanders will face a tough challenge as the this Africa/Argentina conference is very tight at the moment.

None of the sides can afford a bad result so in that sense it guarantees the spectator that the best version of each team will be facing the Highlanders (and others) on this tour.
I can see both the Bulls and Sharks beating the highlanders in South Africa.

The Blues have also toured SA so far. Beating the Lions at home and then losing to the Stormers...

Bulls will be without Pierre Schoeman due to the biting incident as well as Roelof Smit due to a head injury he sustained against the Rebels.

Travis Ishmaiel and Nic De Jager has been cleared to play.

 

[SomeOke]

I suspect the Highlanders are the better side, no offense to the Bulls they are building to something great but the Highlanders have been a good team for years now with some world class players.
Hopefully travel, altitude and the mighty fortress Loftus will prove to be a leveler.

I'd love to see the Bulls win, but intellectually it's hard to predict that win. I can see the Highlanders exploiting the Bulls weaknesses, in particular with their very strong kicking game.

 

[Big_Grumper]

This is the game of the week for me. I'd be getting a wee bit excited for the Bulls if they can pull off a win here. I'll apply the kiss of death by predicting it.

+ 1.

I'm really looking forward to this and can see it being a very tight game.

 

[SomeOke]

Sadness.
What an annoying finish.

 

[Big_Grumper]

Bulls were very unlucky. To outscore your opponents 4-2 and still lose is demoralising.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Heartbreaking stuff. Dont think the bulls deserved to lose this one.

 

[Big_Grumper]

It's been an emotional day as a rugby fan. My team, Gloucester, we're awful and got deservedly thumped by our geographical rivals, Bath.

My second team, the Highlanders, recorded a lucky win in SA in a game they should have lost.

My other SR predictions went to rats.

I've got a nice bottle of Malbec and I'm going to drink it tonight.

 

[AM_Bokke]

That Lizo counter ruck penalty.

Man, makes me mad. (And not at Jackson, but at Rugby's governing bodies)

I can do a rant on the topic if you all want. I'll put the time in if you are interested.

 

[AM_Bokke]

I thought Lizo was excellent by the way.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Geez, that was such a frustrating game to watch. Bulls having 70% possession nearly the whole game. And the Highlanders were at their best when they didn't have the ball.

Thought there were a few bad calls on both sides, and I don't understand why the Highlanders props didn't get more yellow cards for their repeated infringements at the scrums...

 

[Kiwiwomble]

this is actually where i have a problem with the rules, i dont understand why someone should get a yellow card when they're just not strong enough and are getting taught a thing or too in the scrum.

you're not deliberately being weaker....its like giving a yellow card to someone for not being as good a fly half as dan carter....or if ben smith steps past you...yellow card for not being as good

free kick to the dominant scrum sure, let the game flow

 

[TRF_heineken]

this is actually where i have a problem with the rules, i dont understand why someone should get a yellow card when they're just not strong enough and are getting taught a thing or too in the scrum.

you're not deliberately being weaker....its like giving a yellow card to someone for not being as good a fly half as dan carter....or if ben smith steps past you...yellow card for not being as good

free kick to the dominant scrum sure, let the game flow

Well that's a whole debate on its own. Some teams pick props who are a bit weaker at scrums, but are great in every other facet of the game, while others pick props purely for their scrummaging power. The issue is that props are specialist positions, and by being "weaker" as you say, they are maybe not intentionally, slowing down the game and preventing the game to flow, the Onus is on them, and that is why they get penalised, but my issue is that in this specific game, the Highlanders were repeatedly punished for "popping up", and that is something the props do electively, they chose to do that, because the power is too much for them to fight it out. That to me is a professional foul, and should get a yellow.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Interesting point!
I don't mind a yellow for a professional foul, but i think Jabby was reffering for something else.

If you put me to play against a professional player, just to make the difference in skill/size/speed/strength just ridiculous, chances are i wont be able to tackle him, get past him, but there is a way for me to try, given my size/strength/speed/skill, to do so without breaking the rules and being penalized. I can try to get the ball in the line out (and fail) without being penalized. I can try tackling him without being penalized. I can try rucking against him, etc.

Scrum are the exception. If the difference in (lets call it) strength is big enough, even if the weaker prop does everything perfect from a technical point of view, he will get penalized and (chances are) YCed.

I have mixed feeling about this. I was thinking of a similar situation in other (comparable) sports and couldn't think of any.
The question becomes, should a weaker player have the possibility to scrum in a way where he could lose the scrum, possession or even points but not be penalized? If so, how?


PS: just to be 100% clear, we are talking about how we think the rules should be, not how the rules are.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Interesting point!
I don't mind a yellow for a professional foul, but i think Jabby was reffering for something else.

If you put me to play against a professional player, just to make the difference in skill/size/speed/strength just ridiculous, chances are i wont be able to tackle him, get past him, but there is a way for me to try, given my size/strength/speed/skill, to do so without breaking the rules and being penalized. I can try to get the ball in the line out (and fail) without being penalized. I can try tackling him without being penalized. I can try rucking against him, etc.

Scrum are the exception. If the difference in (lets call it) strength is big enough, even if the weaker prop does everything perfect from a technical point of view, he will get penalized and (chances are) YCed.

I have mixed feeling about this. I was thinking of a similar situation in other (comparable) sports and couldn't think of any.
The question becomes, should a weaker player have the possibility to scrum in a way where he could lose the scrum, possession or even points but not be penalized? If so, how?


PS: just to be 100% clear, we are talking about how we think the rules should be, not how the rules are.

Well, the point is that the Scrum rules were amended to aid the stronger scrummaging side at the scrum. So teams who have stronger or more technically sound props would benefit from the new rules.

If I were to draw a comparison, I would use the examples of Wilco Louw vs. Trevor Nyakane. Wilco Louw is by far the better Scrummager and would boss Nyakane the whole game if they went head-to-head. But Nyakane is better at pilfering the ball at rucks, better ballskills, and a little bit faster with ball in hand. Both of them can scrum, and have learned the art of scrummaging at the tighthead position. But Louw has perfected that area, while Nyakane has not, but is better in other facets of their game.

Both of them are in for a shout to be Springboks this year, but the question is what does Rassie want out of his no. 3 tighthead props? Traditionally, South Africans see this position as one of the cornerstones of a team, and will look at the best scrummager. Kitch Christie, who coached the '95 World Cup Winning Springboks, once said when asked how does he pick his team? "I first pick my tighthead prop, then my reserve tighthead prop, then my captain".

The Scrum has always been one of the areas to exploit other teams weaknesses, so it would only make sense that the better scrummaging teams would use the scrum to their advantage. It's just a pity that some referees are against this plan...

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I played in the front row my whole career. That only went as far as club rugby but it was still 10 years of scrumming. I can say the only time i wold deliberately pop out of a scrum was if i was being bent in half and i was worried about breaking my back....as one of my team mates did.

In a time when we're giving away yellow cards if a player gets tackled when their feet are a few cm's off the ground due to safety concerns should we really be gibing yellow cards for popping out of a scrum?

sure, they've failed at the scrum, march them 10m and give free kick, get the game going

 

[TRF_heineken]

I played in the front row my whole career. That only went as far as club rugby but it was still 10 years of scrumming. I can say the only time i wold deliberately pop out of a scrum was if i was being bent in half and i was worried about breaking my back....as one of my team mates did.

In a time when we're giving away yellow cards if a player gets tackled when their feet are a few cm's off the ground due to safety concerns should we really be gibing yellow cards for popping out of a scrum?

sure, they've failed at the scrum, march them 10m and give free kick, get the game going

I've played prop all my life, and yeah that is mostly why popping up happens. But there are others reasons too.

But if a team knows they will only concede a free kick for doing this, then they will keep on doing that to prevent the opposition from getting penalties.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

i guess i just see that as the lesser of two evils

they do it deliberately in their own 22 and a quick halfback will turn a free kick into a try pretty quick

The nature of a front rower is to be dominant in the scrum, i doubt there is a single front rower out there that wouldn't rather win a scrum then pop one. so the only ones popping deliberately are the ones getting shown up by their opposition and if your getting shown up you more likely to get forced up deliberately or collapse.

so, of all the possible outcomes (get pushed off it...get popped because its unsafe...break your back...pop deliberately just to avoid loosing the ball) only one of them is penalty worthy...should all other situations be yellow cards just to catch the small number of time the latter occurs?

free kick...get the game going again...i love scumming and love watching a good scrum battle...no one enjoys seeing a front row get folded in half by their own locks and the other front row time and again