[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I can’t really think of many other players in the others lions teams that cover 6,7,8 as well as Wilson. He may go purely as cover for those B games where he will do a good job across any backrow position.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I could see Wilson going, good leader and a versatile player. Not taking underhill would be a mistake imo.

Apart from Faletau which 8s are going do you think? I don't see it as a massive position of strength for the lions

I think Stander has to go; he’s had a real resurgence this 6N.

It won’t happen but he’d also be my choice for captain as IMO he’s a nailed on starter and has plenty of experience captaining Munster.

I can see Faletau and Stander being the only out and out 8s taken; in 13 and 17 Gatland only picked 2 out and out 8s in his initial squads (Faletau and Heaslip in 13, Faletau and Vunipola in 17) with 1 or 2 able to cover (O’Brien in 13, Stander and Moriarty in 17). Stander’s become more of an out and out 8 option since 17 IMO whereas he used to be more of a blindside who could cover 8 but I suppose he could still be taken in that flank/8 role with another out and out 8 taken.

For all the talk of Vunipola being nailed on because he’s big and Gatland likes big players, I’m not sure that’s true. He’s always been a fan of big backs but in the past his back rows have been some of the much more balanced and mobile on the international stage.

 

[BPM]

That is a very bold call. I agree he’s in good form, but I don’t think he’s a nailed-on starter. Personally I’d have Faletau ahead of him 8 both on form and ability.

It really depends on how Gatland wants his back row set up and how much he tries to set his tactics to play SA. He obviously knows the Welsh players very well and from a form POV, there’s a definite case for Navidi, Tipuric or Faletau as a unit. Certainly Curry, Watson and Stander all have good claims to start, but I wouldn’t put it past Gatland going for an all Welsh back row.

Also worth noting Stander is playing at 8 for Ireland because Doris is injured otherwise he’d have been at 6.

Anyway ... this is the England thread so let’s move on from speculating on the Lions.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Absolutely Daly to OC and 6-2 bench.

<sigh>

Hmm, nearly right.

Marchant parachuted in over Odogwu for the bench, Daly parachuted in over Odogwu for the 13 jersey.

Yep, another sign that 'being in good form, even if it's enough to get you into the wider squad' is still not going to get you into the side over a non-match-fit, non-tackling non-outside centre who EJ happens to love. It's almost as if 'in the squad as the back up 13' does not, in fact, mean that you are the back up 13.

Remember it's also an insult to the likes of Smith, Simmonds and Simmonds, who have been in amazing form, but can't even make the squad, whereas players like Martin (with no long term pedigree but who looks as if he may be really good) and Marchant, who has been ok this season, can go straight into the 23. Thus it's not as if Eddie couldn't parachute players in, just that he chooses not to in those specific cases.

I know someone will argue that EJ won't drop people for poor form, but the message he's sending is 'even if my chosen players can't catch, pass and tackle, they're still better than you.' Also, 'not fitting in with his system' is a stretch when he's been trying to get England to play to Exeter's system, but in a less exciting version.

SMH, WTF, FFS etc. as the kids say.

 

[Jashay]

Eddie can't just parachute people in, though. He has to choose replacements from the shadow squad, and then can select someone to join the shadow squad if there's a gap, so there's only a list of 12 players he can pick.

Marchant and Martin weren't pulled out of nowhere; they were in the shadow squad already. And with Daly it's hardly parachuting if you have 50 caps and have already played every match this 6N.

Now you might ask why people like Smith and Simmonds weren't in the shadow squad to begin with... If you exclude JJ and Ewels, the entire original Shadow Squad had 12 caps between 10 people. I think they were a backup that Eddie hoped not to use at all, but his hand was forced by the loss of 6 forwards throughout the campaign.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Eddie can't just parachute people in, though. He has to choose replacements from the shadow squad, and then can select someone to join the shadow squad if there's a gap, so there's only a list of 12 players he can pick.

Marchant and Martin weren't pulled out of nowhere; they were in the shadow squad already. And with Daly it's hardly parachuting if you have 50 caps and have already played every match this 6N.

Now you might ask why people like Smith and Simmonds weren't in the shadow squad to begin with... If you exclude JJ and Ewels, the entire original Shadow Squad had 12 caps between 10 people. I think they were a backup that Eddie hoped not to use at all, but his hand was forced by the loss of 6 forwards throughout the campaign.

If Eddie was hoping not to use the shadow squad at all, why did he not pick Marchant in the original 28/29 and Odogwu in the shadow squad? 'I can only select players from my shadow squad' is hardly a defence when (presumably) it was EJ who selected the shadow squad.

On what basis is Daly the (second) best 13 in the country? Current form? Recent club form at 13? recent club form anywhere? Huge international experience at 13? Maybe he's in for his excellent positioning, slick handling, terrier-like tackling, bullet pass? I think 'parachuting' is entirely fair. [] It's obviously not Burgess-level parachuting, but parachuting nevertheless. I'm not suggesting he can't play, I'm suggesting that he's a very good rugby player, but not first or second choice in any position... and he's in awful form.

As I said, awful man management.

 

[Jakedood]

If Eddie was hoping not to use the shadow squad at all, why did he not pick Marchant in the original 28/29 and Odogwu in the shadow squad? 'I can only select players from my shadow squad' is hardly a defence when (presumably) it was EJ who selected the shadow squad.

On what basis is Daly the (second) best 13 in the country? Current form? Recent club form at 13? recent club form anywhere? Huge international experience at 13? Maybe he's in for his excellent positioning, slick handling, terrier-like tackling, bullet pass? I think 'parachuting' is entirely fair. [] It's obviously not Burgess-level parachuting, but parachuting nevertheless. I'm not suggesting he can't play, I'm suggesting that he's a very good rugby player, but not first or second choice in any position... and he's in awful form.

As I said, awful man management.

EJ (again) will have thought Odogwu could learn more from being in camp than outside it, as the shadow squad were. The SS were made to take larger covid precautions too, but werent training with England
He's playing there as its remarkably similar offensively at international level to 13, just one man in and you dont pick the running line from afar quite so much. He certainly wont be weak in the actual defence of the channel, and might see his tackling improve when he's in the defensive line rather than a one on one in space (maybe)
One thing is, England looked good with their playmaking backs last week, really good in fact on the ball, they created opportunities that they didnt always take, but as Souness said, the time to worry is when you're not making chances. Thats against a Shaun Edwards drilled defense, I'd be more worried about what Tadgh Furlong may do to Mako, or Healy to Sinckler the way the scrum has been going for England, it hasnt exactly been their most solid platform. If ireland can gain slight charge of either set piece area, thats where they'll be able to strangle the game with their midfield runners and kicking game

 

[Crash Hamster]

EJ (again) will have thought Odogwu could learn more from being in camp than outside it, as the shadow squad were. The SS were made to take larger covid precautions too, but werent training with England
He's playing there as its remarkably similar offensively at international level to 13, just one man in and you dont pick the running line from afar quite so much. He certainly wont be weak in the actual defence of the channel, and might see his tackling improve when he's in the defensive line rather than a one on one in space (maybe)

Obviously I'm in a minority of one (or is that too hyperbolic..? ) with the view that it's ok to play someone bang out of form, out of position using words like 'might' and maybe'.

If Jones wanted Marchant, wouldn't Marchant have learned more from being in camp than outside it, before getting 75 minutes at the weekend after an early injury? 4 caps (3? all?) as a replacement, none in a 6N game. It's not as if you can argue he's more experienced than Odogwu to any great extent.

 

[Jakedood]

Obviously I'm in a minority of one (or is that too hyperbolic..? ) with the view that it's ok to play someone bang out of form, out of position using words like 'might' and maybe'.

If Jones wanted Marchant, wouldn't Marchant have learned more from being in camp than outside it, before getting 75 minutes at the weekend after an early injury? 4 caps (3? all?) as a replacement, none in a 6N game. It's not as if you can argue he's more experienced than Odogwu to any great extent.

No, but he has been in England camps a few years ago, he's played southern hemisphere rugby as well, I'd actually argue he's further on in his development as an all round rugby player. That being said, runners like Odogwu are absolute freaks, and could have a much bigger upside
I think the biggest argument against Daly (though he did have a shocker v Wales) is that he isnt a full back. Never really has been, his positioning isnt up to scratch, and his one v one tackling is poor. But he's a quality operator, quick good step, and smart
I dont think you're in the minority at all, obviously wouldve been great to see the likes of Odogwu play, and at least see where his weaknesses and strengths at this level lie. But I just disagree that there's no reason at all for what EJ is doing, I think he's a very intelligent rugby coach, and he's always learning and evolving himself. He's been through the process of developing international players before, and he knows what he's doing by now (you'd hope)

 

[Crash Hamster]

No, but he has been in England camps a few years ago, he's played southern hemisphere rugby as well, I'd actually argue he's further on in his development as an all round rugby player. That being said, runners like Odogwu are absolute freaks, and could have a much bigger upside
I think the biggest argument against Daly (though he did have a shocker v Wales) is that he isnt a full back. Never really has been, his positioning isnt up to scratch, and his one v one tackling is poor. But he's a quality operator, quick good step, and smart
I dont think you're in the minority at all, obviously wouldve been great to see the likes of Odogwu play, and at least see where his weaknesses and strengths at this level lie. But I just disagree that there's no reason at all for what EJ is doing, I think he's a very intelligent rugby coach, and he's always learning and evolving himself. He's been through the process of developing international players before, and he knows what he's doing by now (you'd hope)

I would honestly far rather see Marchant than Odogwu (or Daly, for that matter) at OC; I have enjoyed Odogwu in the Prem for a little while and he's improved dramatically since his move (both to Wasps and OC); he certainly has an X factor. Marchant is pretty damn handy too and more secure in his position. He's also been through the pathway since junior levels.

I also have great admiration for what Eddie Jones has done for England. I really am NOT the sort of person who does the absolute god/utter shite dichotomy. What I am doing is pointing out that Odogwu has been treated poorly, in one way or another.

Maybe he was really in as an apprentice (in which case, poor communication by EJ/RFU)
Maybe he was never going to be selected (in which case why have him/stop him developing at his club/have him in the shadow squad instead?)
Maybe he's injured (in which case, poor communication again)
Maybe he's been so awful that he can't be selected (in which case it was poor judgement having him there in the first place)
Maybe EJ just likes Daly better, so will squeeze him in anywhere (in which case it's awful man management, with favourites and cliques)
Maybe EJ just likes Marchant better (in which case why wasn't he in the squad to start with)
Maybe EJ thought that he had a spare slot in the squad to develop a player for future use (in which case, why did he not consider that one injury would lead him to have to dip into the shadow squad, so it would be better to include an extra centre... there's precedent for this at prop this year, after all...)

I'm also not sure that playing someone out of position for the vast majority of their 50 caps even though there are clearly better fullbacks in the country is necessarily brilliant coaching and it shows that EJ can be stubborn once he makes up his mind. Overly loyal, even... but only to certain players. It's also interesting to note that he admitted 'not preparing the players properly' against Scotland. I quite understand his propensity for saying something controversial or distracting to take the heat off the players, but if ever a team deserved a public roasting, that was the time. Surprised he didn't, in public.

 

[Jakedood]

I would honestly far rather see Marchant than Odogwu (or Daly, for that matter) at OC; I have enjoyed Odogwu in the Prem for a little while and he's improved dramatically since his move (both to Wasps and OC); he certainly has an X factor. Marchant is pretty damn handy too and more secure in his position. He's also been through the pathway since junior levels.

I also have great admiration for what Eddie Jones has done for England. I really am NOT the sort of person who does the absolute god/utter shite dichotomy. What I am doing is pointing out that Odogwu has been treated poorly, in one way or another.

Maybe he was really in as an apprentice (in which case, poor communication by EJ/RFU)
Maybe he was never going to be selected (in which case why have him/stop him developing at his club/have him in the shadow squad instead?)
Maybe he's injured (in which case, poor communication again)
Maybe he's been so awful that he can't be selected (in which case it was poor judgement having him there in the first place)
Maybe EJ just likes Daly better, so will squeeze him in anywhere (in which case it's awful man management, with favourites and cliques)
Maybe EJ just likes Marchant better (in which case why wasn't he in the squad to start with)
Maybe EJ thought that he had a spare slot in the squad to develop a player for future use (in which case, why did he not consider that one injury would lead him to have to dip into the shadow squad, so it would be better to include an extra centre... there's precedent for this at prop this year, after all...)

I'm also not sure that playing someone out of position for the vast majority of their 50 caps even though there are clearly better fullbacks in the country is necessarily brilliant coaching and it shows that EJ can be stubborn once he makes up his mind. Overly loyal, even... but only to certain players. It's also interesting to note that he admitted 'not preparing the players properly' against Scotland. I quite understand his propensity for saying something controversial or distracting to take the heat off the players, but if ever a team deserved a public roasting, that was the time. Surprised he didn't, in public.

SO he cant be released to his club and back in the bubble I dont think, there were very strict rules around this when the agreement for a 28 man squad was created. If he left for his club, he couldnt then come back in
Whether he's tagged as apprentice or not in lists revealed to the public, I think it's safe to see thats how he's being treated, and I've honestly made the mention so many times about the intricacy of rugby systems, and the need to learn your positioning, especially in what appears to be quite a complex attack set up (again, see wibble) that you need to learn it. This experience will have done him the world of good, and likely to see in summer
Daly was played at full back to try and make use of his running threat and distribution (MB didnt have distribution skills) because he uses Full backs and OC's similarly in attack, and thought he'd be of value in kicking game, especially as he has/had the speed to be a back 3 player
If you've heard any stories about EJ in camp, he's brutal, not a whole lot of coddling done to players that arent performing. Maybe in public, but behind the scenes, he's right up their asses. Gregan is a good source if you wanna hear about this. I dont think he has favourites, he's just decided who the best players in the country are. Looks at alternatives in camps, sees if you've got the ability to replace them.
This is the transition year by his usual schedule, might see 2-4 different players calling for spots by the end of the year, time will tell
He doesnt roast players in public, but he does in private by the sound of things, just because we didnt hear it, I'd say that means nada
These responses are taking a time to write up so I'll leave it there, take in from that what you will

 

[Crash Hamster]

I understand that there may be a period of learning the attack systems, but that would apply to Daly at OC too. How likely is it that he runs an FB line when at OC? does he still run FB lines at OC, thus expecting Malins to run OC lines from FB? It also applies to Marchant coming in. Unless they're running Quins lines, he's got a week to learn them before potentially playing 75 min at OC; could Odogwu not have learned more of the OC lines in camp for 10 weeks than Marchant in 7 days?

Also, the 'can't leave and re-enter the bubble' is patently illogical. If Marchant, playing for club but being tested, can enter the bubble at short notice, then any player in the bubble (presumably being tested, but also isolated from the wider world) could leave, move to shadow squad protocols then return?

Nice chatting, a tiny amount of work to do

 

[TheSaffycen]

If he's explained to Odogwu and he's happy then it's not really an issue. I'd liked to have seen him because he looks like a real talent. Marchant is a decent player and I'd have been happy to see him start here, I really didn't want to see Daly to be honest.

He may be a 50 cap international and Lions player but he's been dreadful this tournament. If you can't pass or catch then I don't see 13 as being your best position..

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

If he's explained to Odogwu and he's happy then it's not really an issue. I'd liked to have seen him because he looks like a real talent. Marchant is a decent player and I'd have been happy to see him start here, I really didn't want to see Daly to be honest.

He may be a 50 cap international and Lions player but he's been dreadful this tournament. If you can't pass or catch then I don't see 13 as being your best position..

Genuinely would be interested to know what Daly's catch % is this tournament... Have a feeling he has had butterfingers more than any other player.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I’m largely with team Crash Hamster (great name BTW) on Odogwu.

But this may change things? References to a shoulder problem. Pre dates Fra. Doesn’t sound that serious but you never know.

Redirect Notice

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Didn't realise the u20s have been having secret games vs club development sides:

England U20: Exclusive – squad for Saturday’s cloak & dagger fixture – NextGenXV

nextgenxv.com

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Are we all ready to finally sack rubbish Jones now?

 

[ncurd]

Are we all ready to finally sack rubbish Jones now?

Yes

 

[HenryChinaski]

Do we get a triple wooden spoon?

 

[TRF_Olyy]