[2021 Six Nations] France vs Scotland (26/03/21)

[Brandon2k]

I think that would have been harsh to disallow that. when watching people seem to just be viewing the slow-mo of it so it looks like he takes an age to make the placement. In real time it's about 1-2 seconds.

looking at the highlights here in real time. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56549417

He's brought to the floor with 14:02 on the game time, Barnes awards the try 2 seconds later at 14:04

2 secs is a long time. But it's to do with 2 separate movements not 2 seconds.

 

[Jakedood]

2 secs is a long time. But it's to do with 2 separate movements not 2 seconds.

Theoretically, this just gave time to French players to latch onto the ball. Its a later place than usual, but still just a ball placement, his body doesnt shuffle closer to the line, so no double movement, try decision was correct

 

[MikeTheNative]

2 secs is a long time. But it's to do with 2 separate movements not 2 seconds.

Despite be called 'double movement', the actual rule is nothing to do with separate moves. The exact wording "Is tackled near to the opponents' goal line and the player immediately reaches out and grounds the ball."
Watching in real time, it's pretty immediate.

Laws of the Game | World Rugby Laws

The Laws of the Game of rugby union governed by World Rugby.

laws.worldrugby.org

 

[Brandon2k]

Theoretically, this just gave time to French players to latch onto the ball. Its a later place than usual, but still just a ball placement, his body doesnt shuffle closer to the line, so no double movement, try decision was correct

When tackled you must release the ball in any direction except forward. This rules out a double movement. The player was on the deck with the ball for 2 secs before lifting ot over the line and grounding it. It should have been a france penalty. Barnesy missedit completely.

 

[Brandon2k]

Despite be called 'double movement', the actual rule is nothing to do with separate moves. The exact wording "Is tackled near to the opponents' goal line and the player immediately reaches out and grounds the ball."
Watching in real time, it's pretty immediate.

Laws of the Game | World Rugby Laws

The Laws of the Game of rugby union governed by World Rugby.

laws.worldrugby.org

Theres a couple of seconds from the tackles player being tackled, not releasing the ball then picking it up and grounding it over the line. The only time a player can do this is if carried over the line by his own momentum.

 

[Jakedood]

When tackled you must release the ball in any direction except forward. This rules out a double movement. The player was on the deck with the ball for 2 secs before lifting ot over the line and grounding it. It should have been a france penalty. Barnesy missedit completely.

This is the letter of the law re releasing immediately, but if you're going to allow some effort to clear out a man on the ball, you must also allow some time to place the ball, Rugby would be hella entertaining if it was always released immediately, the pace of the game would be insane. But it isnt the way the game has been reffed for years now, so no, I'm sorry but Barnes made a perfectly logical decision in this case
If you watch a full rugby game with an eye on this, you'll see its not uncommon for the ball to be released on the attacking side several seconds after hitting the ground

At the very least, you've got to admit it's not a shocker, and is a logical conclusion to come to when seeing the play? Barnes didnt miss it, he just saw the opposite as you, and instead what I see

 

[Brandon2k]

This is the letter of the law re releasing immediately, but if you're going to allow some effort to clear out a man on the ball, you must also allow some time to place the ball, Rugby would be hella entertaining if it was always released immediately, the pace of the game would be insane. But it isnt the way the game has been reffed for years now, so no, I'm sorry but Barnes made a perfectly logical decision in this case
If you watch a full rugby game with an eye on this, you'll see its not uncommon for the ball to be released on the attacking side several seconds after hitting the ground

Yes I agree but he didn't release it he continued to play it forward and over the try line after having been tackled and therefore having no right to do this. If one of his team had picked it up and grou ded it that would have been different but he was the tackled player.

 

[Jakedood]

Yes I agree but he didn't release it he continued to play it forward and over the try line after having been tackled and therefore having no right to do this. If one of his team had picked it up and grou ded it that would have been different but he was the tackled player.

He placed it forward. This is entirely allowed. Many many tries have been scored this way
Once he touches the line, releasing the ball is unnecessary as the play is stopped for the try

 

[Brandon2k]

This is the letter of the law re releasing immediately, but if you're going to allow some effort to clear out a man on the ball, you must also allow some time to place the ball, Rugby would be hella entertaining if it was always released immediately, the pace of the game would be insane. But it isnt the way the game has been reffed for years now, so no, I'm sorry but Barnes made a perfectly logical decision in this case
If you watch a full rugby game with an eye on this, you'll see its not uncommon for the ball to be released on the attacking side several seconds after hitting the ground

At the very least, you've got to admit it's not a shocker, and is a logical conclusion to come to when seeing the play? Barnes didnt miss it, he just saw the opposite as you, and instead what I see

Refs cant

He placed it forward. This is entirely allowed. Many many tries have been scored this way
Once he touches the line, releasing the ball is unnecessary as the play is stopped for the try

Only if the placement of the ball is 'immediately' (key word) after being tackled.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Theres a couple of seconds from the tackles player being tackled, not releasing the ball then picking it up and grounding it over the line. The only time a player can do this is if carried over the line by his own momentum.

It's not a couple of seconds from him being grounded, it's a second. Are you not watching it in real time? He doesn't have to release the ball if tackled if his next move is to reach and score.
i really don't understand how you are watching it in real time and don't see how he plays it immediately.

 

[Brandon2k]

It's not a couple of seconds from him being grounded, it's a second. Are you not watching it in real time? He doesn't have to release the ball if tackled if his next move is to reach and score.

Real time. But its certainly not immediate. Theres a lull after he is tackled and it looks like barnesy is waiting for him to pick the ball up and over the try line (like an umpire waiting for a bowler to scream 'owzat'.

 

[Brandon2k]

He placed it forward. This is entirely allowed. Many many tries have been scored this way
Once he touches the line, releasing the ball is unnecessary as the play is stopped for the try

It's not a question of him not releasing it after scoring. He didn't release it before he got to the line at the first attempt.

 

[Jakedood]

It's not a question of him not releasing it after scoring. He didn't release it before he got to the line at the first attempt.

He didnt need to. Because he is placing the ball. This happens at every ruck in every game. You do not need to release the ball before presenting it

Okay Im gonna try and clear this up... which of these do you have issue with?

That the ball has been presented in a downward motion over the line: or

The time taken to present the ball

 

[MikeTheNative]

Rule regarding a tackled player "Make the ball available so that play can continue by releasing, passing or pushing the ball in any direction except forward. They may place the ball in any direction."

 

[Brandon2k]

He didnt need to. Because he is placing the ball. This happens at every ruck in every game. You do not need to release the ball before presenting it

Okay Im gonna try and clear this up... which of these do you have issue with?

That the ball has been presented in a downward motion over the line: or

The time taken to present the ball

Simply the 'double' movement. It was 2 moves. He picks up the ball and is tackled- the ball is on the floor on the wrong side of the try line.. He can now fo one of two things. Immediately place that ball over the line and ground it or lay it sideways or backwards for his team to compete for it.
He failed to immediately attempt to score a try. It's not got to be all in the same movement but it has to be instantaneous.
Its obvious we both see it differently. There has been much debate out it including from the French team. It's an interpretation issue which obviously is subjective. I feel however Barnesy was courting it. His body language did it in my opinion.

 

[Brandon2k]

Simply the 'double' movement. It was 2 moves. He picks up the ball and is tackled- the ball is on the floor on the wrong side of the try line.. He can now fo one of two things. Immediately place that ball over the line and ground it or lay it sideways or backwards for his team to compete for it.
He failed to immediately attempt to score a try. It's not got to be all in the same movement but it has to be instantaneous.
Its obvious we both see it differently. There has been much debate out it including from the French team. It's an interpretation issue which obviously is subjective. I feel however Barnesy was courting it. His body language did it in my opinion.

Wheres big Nige when you need him

 

[Jakedood]

Simply the 'double' movement. It was 2 moves. He picks up the ball and is tackled- the ball is on the floor on the wrong side of the try line.. He can now fo one of two things. Immediately place that ball over the line and ground it or lay it sideways or backwards for his team to compete for it.
He failed to immediately attempt to score a try. It's not got to be all in the same movement but it has to be instantaneous.
Its obvious we both see it differently. There has been much debate out it including from the French team. It's an interpretation issue which obviously is subjective. I feel however Barnesy was courting it. His body language did it in my opinion.

I know the whole "barnsey" thing with another ref wound you up, but I think you'll find he wasnt courting anything

Theoretically yes, and the law does state immediately, but players are given time to ground the ball off mauls, or when they carry over the line. He's not exactly ripping the arse out of his placement time, its one second, If its 3/4 seconds then I can see your point more, but this is perfectly legitimate, and nit picky at best for me. I'd say Nige would agree with this, as would the majority of referees

 

[AlRums]

This explains all of this well

Ref Watch: Wayne Barnes' off day and the Law loophole that Penaud's try exposed

The ability to make consistently good decisions under pressure marks out the great from the good in many walks of life.

www.rugbypass.com

 

[Brandon2k]

This explains all of this well

Ref Watch: Wayne Barnes' off day and the Law loophole that Penaud's try exposed

The ability to make consistently good decisions under pressure marks out the great from the good in many walks of life.

www.rugbypass.com

Absolutely. My thoughts exactly

 

[Jakedood]

Absolutely. My thoughts exactly

Okay so the ball is touching the line half a second before his leg twitches, so not sure that bits relevant at all. He's placed the ball over the line, relatively quickly (though obviously not immediately)
I'd be happy to admit if I'm wrong, i really am, but I just cant see the logic in calling that a poor decision. Potentially worth talking about, yes. Clear error, or a bad decision, no.