[2022 Rugby Championship] Round 2 Argentina vs Australia (13/08/2022)

[Superalexmarket]

I've been there...

 

[Jaguares]

I didn't like the Cheika appointment (due to language) but I've always thought he was a very solid coach with some tough assignments. I have a feeling he might have enjoyed this victory over his old union a little bit.

He's a good head coach for short periods. And don't forget that he knows Aussie Rugby like the back of his hand, same as Eddie Jones.

Australia doesn't have enough depth and had to faced 2 Aussie head coaches. It's a lethal combo

 

[Derpus]

Can always trust the Wallabies to find yet another way to further dissapoint fans who, at this point, expect almost nothing.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

No one wants to kick Argentina out of the Rugby Championship, as they are clearly the 4th best team in the Southern hemisphere and a two time wc semi finalist. People don't necessarily want to kick Italy out of the 6 nations, they just need to earn it because after 20 years of playing in it they are still losing to Georgia

SA rugby appear to have backed away from committing to SANZAAR until 2030, now committing only until 2025. If they pull off a move to the 6N and blow up SANZAAR I think we have to be realistic about whether that means the Pumas will be abandoned in the same way as Super Rugby finalists the Jaguares were excluded. Its essential the Pumas show themselves to be a competitive force in the competition. Even though that didnt help the Jaguares it might help the Pumas. The reason referenced by Marinos of Australia for not having Japan in the RC is that they haven't shown themselves to be consistently competitive at the Tier1 level.

Of course, nobody is stupid enough to publicly say that if SA join the 6N then participation of Italy and Argentina in their respective tournaments may be revisited, but I'd be fairly confident these thoughts are being voiced behind closed doors.

 

[Frankie123]

SA rugby appear to have backed away from committing to SANZAAR until 2030, now committing only until 2025. If they pull off a move to the 6N and blow up SANZAAR I think we have to be realistic about whether that means the Pumas will be abandoned in the same way as Super Rugby finalists the Jaguares were excluded. Its essential the Pumas show themselves to be a competitive force in the competition. Even though that didnt help the Jaguares it might help the Pumas. The reason referenced by Marinos of Australia for not having Japan in the RC is that they haven't shown themselves to be consistently competitive at the Tier1 level.

Of course, nobody is stupid enough to publicly say that if SA join the 6N then participation of Italy and Argentina in their respective tournaments may be revisited, but I'd be fairly confident these thoughts are being voiced behind closed doors.

To be fair Argentina have beaten the All blacks and just beat Australia 48-17. They have made 2 World Cup semi finals, let’s not make out like that aren’t a competitive tier 1 nation

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

To be fair Argentina have beaten the All blacks and just beat Australia 48-17. They have made 2 World Cup semi finals, let’s not make out like that aren’t a competitive tier 1 nation

They've consistently been the second lowest ranked tier 1 nation over the past decade. They'd beaten NZ and reached two RWC semis and still the Jagaures were expelled.

If Argentina were to become detached from the other Tier 1s and fell behind say Japan and SA left the RC then I think it highly unlikely they'd be allowed to remain in the RC unless they continue to pick up the sort of positive results you reference (even if those results are arguably a result of their opponents getting weaker rather than the Pumas improving). My point is simply that every result Argentina can pick up in the RC is good for both the short and long term.

 

[Derpus]

They've consistently been the second lowest ranked tier 1 nation over the past decade. They'd beaten NZ and reached two RWC semis and still the Jagaures were expelled.

If Argentina were to become detached from the other Tier 1s and fell behind say Japan and SA left the RC then I think it highly unlikely they'd be allowed to remain in the RC unless they continue to pick up the sort of positive results you reference (even if those results are arguably a result of their opponents getting weaker rather than the Pumas improving). My point is simply that every result Argentina can pick up in the RC is good for both the short and long term.

You'd assume SA leaving the RC would be the end of the RC. A pacific cup of some kind would probably take its place and rugby's dive into irrelevance around these parts would accelerate.

Argentina are stuck halfway between professionalism and amateurism. Not sure where they go from here but part time participation in other countries comps probably won't see them get any better.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

All signs point to disarray at the Wallabies. I read they had 16 injuries and now their defence coach quits after last weekends debacle. The only silver lining is this is far enough out from the RWC for them to get back on track.

https://www.planetrugby.com/wallabies-defence-coach-matt-taylor-leaves-the-coaching-team

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I know you're not throwing a jab. Don't worry.
My issue is the evidence i see doesnt appear to back up your stance.

They've consistently been the second lowest ranked tier 1 nation over the past decade.

When was the last time Wales beat the all-blacks?
When was the last time Scotland beat South Africa?
Arg and Ire faced 4 times in WCs. We won 3 and lost the other by one point.


Let me be honest about how i've felt when facing other tier 1 nations during WCs. By no means does this represent what most arg's feel.

- South Africa and NZ, we need a small miracle.
- England. Depends on the year but they generally got out number for some reason. Rock beats scissors kinda thing. Even when they've a bad year (say clearly under Irish/French level) they seem to counter us rather effectively for some reason. Styles make fights, etc.
- Fra, Ire, Wal, Scot, Aus: clumping a bit too much in this group, granted. If we face them in a mid/end of-year series, i prolly wouldn't bet on us.
If we face em on a WC, i like our odds. Not always, but more often than not. I know many would say Ire/Fra should deserve a league of their own. Not sure, maybe. I think history does play a role and the pressure is on them.

To be honest, and i'd be interested to hear what others have to say, i don't think the nations in this group feel rather comfy when facing us either. WC, not friendly.
- Ita and Jap: our game to lose. Still.

That's one of the reasons i'm optimistic about 2023. Chances are we end up second in our group and get to face either Aus or Wales. The pecking order in our group seems clearer. And if (daydreaming) we make it to the semi we would face an arguably better team but one which's path has been considerably harder.
I like those odds.

If you were to tell me right now we get to face Wales on 1/4 and if we win, Ireland on a semi, i'd reply "where do i need to sign".

We are a very temperamental team, and that is one of our worst flaws. But when the stars align we can shine. And we tend to punch above our weight in WCs.
Consistency is not our strength and that is why WCs probably favor us. Group games are mostly locked from minute 0 with a few exceptions. If we manage to align those stars in 1 or 2 games, vs Wales/Aus and battered Ireland or France, who knows?
Not the most likely scenario but not that far-fetched either.

I for one don't give a flying turd about 2022 nor 2023 TRC's. Sure, i'd like to see Arg do well and win, but I am giving Cheika a blank check till the world cup.
He knows our players, he knows the opponents, he knows what's at stake and i consider him a smart man. If he believes this is the right time to take chances, experiment and try out things, well, i'm ok with that. I trust his judgment.
He can lose every game by a landslide until the 8th of nov 2023. Cruz's stamp of approval.

I expect to see dividends after that, tho.

PS: I'll ***** and moan about every knock-on and fwd pass on these boards, but that's a completely different matter.

 

[Derpus]

^^^
Have you ever beaten Aus in a world cup? I mean...

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I know you're not throwing a jab. Don't worry.
My issue is the evidence i see doesnt appear to back up your stance.


When was the last time Wales beat the all-blacks?
When was the last time Scotland beat South Africa?
Arg and Ire faced 4 times in WCs. We won 3 and lost the other by one point.


Let me be honest about how i've felt when facing other tier 1 nations during WCs. By no means does this represent what most arg's feel.

- South Africa and NZ, we need a small miracle.
- England. Depends on the year but they generally got out number for some reason. Rock beats scissors kinda thing. Even when they've a bad year (say clearly under Irish/French level) they seem to counter us rather effectively for some reason. Styles make fights, etc.
- Fra, Ire, Wal, Scot, Aus: clumping a bit too much in this group, granted. If we face them in a mid/end of-year series, i prolly wouldn't bet on us.
If we face em on a WC, i like our odds. Not always, but more often than not. I know many would say Ire/Fra should deserve a league of their own. Not sure, maybe. I think history does play a role and the pressure is on them.

To be honest, and i'd be interested to hear what others have to say, i don't think the nations in this group feel rather comfy when facing us either. WC, not friendly.
- Ita and Jap: our game to lose. Still.

That's one of the reasons i'm optimistic about 2023. Chances are we end up second in our group and get to face either Aus or Wales. The pecking order in our group seems clearer. And if (daydreaming) we make it to the semi we would face an arguably better team but one which's path has been considerably harder.
I like those odds.

If you were to tell me right now we get to face Wales on 1/4 and if we win, Ireland on a semi, i'd reply "where do i need to sign".

We are a very temperamental team, and that is one of our worst flaws. But when the stars align we can shine. And we tend to punch above our weight in WCs.
Consistency is not our strength and that is why WCs probably favor us. Group games are mostly locked from minute 0 with a few exceptions. If we manage to align those stars in 1 or 2 games, vs Wales/Aus and battered Ireland or France, who knows?
Not the most likely scenario but not that far-fetched either.

I for one don't give a flying turd about 2022 nor 2023 TRC's. Sure, i'd like to see Arg do well and win, but I am giving Cheika a blank check till the world cup.
He knows our players, he knows the opponents, he knows what's at stake and i consider him a smart man. If he believes this is the right time to take chances, experiment and try out things, well, i'm ok with that. I trust his judgment.
He can lose every game by a landslide until the 8th of nov 2023. Cruz's stamp of approval.

I expect to see dividends after that, tho.

PS: I'll ***** and moan about every knock-on and fwd pass on these boards, but that's a completely different matter.

As much as I like the rugby World Rankings there is no doubt they aren't representative for some nations like Argentina (very tough annual opposition and minimal commitment to the other Test windows). I think any future discussions about retaining Argentina in the RC would be assisted by them being ranked higher than their perennial position of 9th (which I agree isn't quite a fair reflection of their level). I hope they can find a way to jump the Wallabies in the rankings as that would give something tangible to point to.

 

[Derpus]

You guys are smoking crack if you think a RC decision will be based on ranking or competitiveness.

Its about money. And the Argentina games are by far the least popular/worst sellers.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

You guys are smoking crack if you think a RC decision will be based on ranking or competitiveness.

Its about money. And the Argentina games are by far the least popular/worst sellers.

If it was purely money I think they would have never admitted Argentina to the tri-nations and we would already have had Japan parachuted in. I agree that money will be a bigger factor than competitiveness in any decision around the future of the RC and that Argentina may be dropped regardless of ranking/competitiveness.