Would never happen though.
And I doubt a superstate would bring that vision closer.
Hell look at the mess America is ATM, and that dosnt have the issue of language, historic and cultural differences that Europe has.
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Would never happen though.
And I doubt a superstate would bring that vision closer.
Hell look at the mess America is ATM, and that dosnt have the issue of language, historic and cultural differences that Europe has.
I wouldn't say never but yes the idea it would happen in our lifetime is very laughable were talking generation away here.
America's big issue ATM is a media engine fuelled by the sensational rather than the rational. It has been stoking the flames of being diversive in politics driving a wedge between communities.
It doesn't help some areas of America are extremely backwater in their views and still holding onto the past (I'm looking more at the American civil war here).
Part of reason people moan about our politics is how close the three main parties (if we're still willing to call the LD's a main party) are on left to right wing economics issues. And that mainly comes from years of slowly coming to a consensus as nation for year of where we roughly sit. I'd argue the Tories are pulling us too far in one direction ATM which is why this government isn't well loved and LD/Conservative government was widely accepted. We are more divided these days on Liberalism to Authoritarian standpoint I think but still not massively so.
Infact I'd happily state the only very diversive argument in the UK is our position in Europe.
We are not equal, some of us are born ugly others handsome, some with land some without, some with both parents some with one....George Orwell had a word for what you are suggesting and it formed the basis of the Soviet Union so in that context it's is extreme and I still don't understand where at any point I have said I think I'm better than anyone else.
Yes but those factors shouldn't impact the minimum quality of heathcare you get (and in return access to a healthy diet), education and by in large security which the state provides. Which is essentially what we pay taxes into the state to provide for a us a people. We as a country provide a reaosnable level of that to every child person although I do feel we are doing our level best currently to stop 1 and 2.
It's not communism despite your implication a brand of socialism yes but its not a dirty word (as all I;m saying is the same level we try to practice in the UK), I've at no point said there should be an even distribution of wealth or that people when they reach adulthood shouldn't be put in rat race to try and do better and obtain more wealth than others. People are inhiently selfish and lazy but competetive as well if you remove the competition and selfishiness you'll end up with society that doesn't try to better itself.
It's not communism despite your implication a brand of socialism yes but its not a dirty word (as all I;m saying is the same level we try to practice in the UK), I've at no point said there should be an even distribution of wealth or that people when they reach adulthood shouldn't be put in rat race to try and do better and obtain more wealth than others. People are inhiently selfish and lazy but competetive as well if you remove the competition and selfishiness you'll end up with society that doesn't try to better itself.
One can believe that being British is different to being French and wanting to continue being British while others are French without thinking being British is superior to being French.
Ncurd, I suspect he was responding to the bit about failing to see the point of countries altogether as being extremist, not the idea that all of us deserve good things.
Ncurd, I suspect he was responding to the bit about failing to see the point of countries altogether as being extremist, not the idea that all of us deserve good things.
I'd agree but how different is to say being from Westcountry or Eastend of London or Newcastle? Or being from a working class family and an upper-middle class? I'd say we have enough in our society that makes us different even within country that out of country makes little difference.
Now there are countries where the cultural divide is far greater the Middle East or East-Asia are very different and a union between them at this present time is pretty far fetched. However we are not really divided from mainland Europe from my PoV especially in consideration of the EU. Now we're probably closer culturally to the US but still....
Like I say its long termist view the European superstate is 40-50 years away at least in my view but its a time thing while culturally thing get mixed up more. The idea we are different now is true but enough that we want to be a separate entity entirely I don't believe.
I have seen that before, the Soviet Union was a Similar mindset: no class system, no masters and servants just Soviet citizens. In the former Yugoslavia too, no Croat's no Serbs no Bosnian's just Yugoslav citizens. When those regimes came to an end it was pretty catastrophic with war and economic hardship. For better or worse we humans like to belong to groups and they tend to form on geographic and religious grounds. Riding rough shot over these groups always requires violent repression and when things fall apart which they inevitably do there is always an explosion of nationalism that often leads to war. Trading together, exchanging ideas and sharing each others culture are all things humans have been doing since the dawn of time but it only works if people are allowed to keep their national identity and not be made to feel they have to forget it.
That I agree upon like I say long term view if we tried shove everything together immediately and just say "oh now you have no cultural identity" doesn't work at all.
Countries need to move at their own pace towards this as their own culture dictates. Its moving backwards I disagree with not rolling backwards. Multiculturalism is good thing for society and the blending is great as well its massively benefited us. Sadly sometimes some cultures are completely intolerant of others....
Countries need to move at their own pace towards this as their own culture dictates. Its moving backwards I disagree with not rolling backwards. Multiculturalism is good thing for society and the blending is great as well its massively benefited us. Sadly sometimes some cultures are completely intolerant of others....
One point that entirely gets overlooked is that the EU is not democratic at all...
I repeat.....the council of ministers who are appointed by the member countries rule and propose all legislation on which the elected parliament votes. That body cannot introduce legislation.
That is the unelected Council is the lower house of Parliament and the EU parliament the House of Lords !
Democratic......not really!!
I repeat.....the council of ministers who are appointed by the member countries rule and propose all legislation on which the elected parliament votes. That body cannot introduce legislation.
That is the unelected Council is the lower house of Parliament and the EU parliament the House of Lords !
Democratic......not really!!
Council of ministers who's members are appointed by democratically elected governments of members countries.
Yes I fundamentally disagree with it like you but it's not completely undemocratic and kind of makes sense to stop say Labour being represented on council of ministers but having a Tory government because we've seen what nonsense does in America.
Yes I fundamentally disagree with it like you but it's not completely undemocratic and kind of makes sense to stop say Labour being represented on council of ministers but having a Tory government because we've seen what nonsense does in America.
If we vote to stay, it will be great to see Eurosceptics finally trying to tackle European issues with a little more nous. UKIP answers everything-Europe with "if we leave...". It's such a final position, it leaves no room for negotiation. I think UKIP members inwardly want to see the EU fail, because they are so invested in leaving.
Getting the referendum out of the way will finally lead to discourse beyond "in/out". If we vote to stay, Eurosceptics might actually begin to look at reforming the EU, whilst Europhiles can finally criticise the EU without worrying about scoring own goals. Take TTIP. If I'm a Lib Dem/Labour MP/MEP, I want to criticise it for the secrecy the negotiations are being conducted in, but I also don't want to score an own goal in the referendum.
As for democratising the EU - great! Hopefully the desire for democracy will sweep up the UK electoral system in the process. (Although I'm sure a lot of the Tory MPs will change their tune on democracy when the topic of electoral reform in the UK comes up again...)
Getting the referendum out of the way will finally lead to discourse beyond "in/out". If we vote to stay, Eurosceptics might actually begin to look at reforming the EU, whilst Europhiles can finally criticise the EU without worrying about scoring own goals. Take TTIP. If I'm a Lib Dem/Labour MP/MEP, I want to criticise it for the secrecy the negotiations are being conducted in, but I also don't want to score an own goal in the referendum.
As for democratising the EU - great! Hopefully the desire for democracy will sweep up the UK electoral system in the process. (Although I'm sure a lot of the Tory MPs will change their tune on democracy when the topic of electoral reform in the UK comes up again...)
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The EU won't reform though, It won't move any more than it has.
Why should a governing power that is not elected who are ripping everyone off, and allowing most of the people they employ to do the same, reform?
What point are you making?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681
Didn't we just condemn the SNP for wanting the exact same thing? Either way we need to move on with will of the people at the time of referendum no matter how much you disagree with result.
Like the AV referendum I still think 68% on the nation were utterly wrong (its used every other damn for of election in this country because its better) but I have accept nothing will happen on electoral reform in this country for another 20 years because of it.
Didn't we just condemn the SNP for wanting the exact same thing? Either way we need to move on with will of the people at the time of referendum no matter how much you disagree with result.
Like the AV referendum I still think 68% on the nation were utterly wrong (its used every other damn for of election in this country because its better) but I have accept nothing will happen on electoral reform in this country for another 20 years because of it.
Think his point is that the EU are not going to reform no matter how much pressure they are put under. They have shown in the past some very underhanded tactics to keep the status quo and the project alive.
I would say the opposite, if the leavers win I do think there will be a second referendum like in Ireland after the Lisbon treaty vote
I don't doubt it, I don't agree with that sentimentality though.
Either side demanding a second referendum after this one need to have a massive kick.
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