A Political Thread

[ncurd]

gathered together in groups of thousands this weekend all fall into the same category; selfish pricks.

Honestly I appreciate your sentiment I've not seen anyone except my wife since before this started and have been following guidelines pretty rigidly.

However I do take exception at calling people who are protesting against systemic racism 'selfish', I think its absolutely fair to say they needed to find alternative methods to show their anger at what goes on. But to suggest those actions are selfish sorry but I really stuggle with that statement.

 

[BiggusLaddus]

Because they have decided that their political cause (however worthy) is more important than a pandemic which has shut down normal life across the globe for months. If that isn't selfishness, then it must mean that the pandemic was overblown after all. And like I said that would make me feel like a mug.

I get why this was sparked in the USA, it was an organic response to a horrible act that to many people was the final straw.

But over here what was the immediate reason for it to happen right now?

All of that being said I am sympathetic with the cause and ordinarily would support it. But I just can't reconcile the fact that the protests have happened and been supported by politicians, celebrities etc at a time when it is apparently unsafe to meet loved ones or even to attend their funerals

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Defacing the Winston Churchill statue on the anniversary of D-Day... These people are despicable

Despicable, factual people. Churchill was a wartime hero and that's about it. Well actually only a WW2 hero, his "soldiers" before then were better known for raping and murdering or dying en masse due to his terrible leadership.

 

[ncurd]

Despicable, factual people. Churchill was a wartime hero, well actually only a WW2 hero, his "soldiers" before then we're better known for raping and murdering or dying en masse due to his terrible leadership.

I think there is difference between someone like Churchill and Colston. Like it or not Chruchill was a significant contributor in defeating Nazi Germany that will always carry significant weight despite anything else he did. I wish we'd teach our 'heroes' as the deeply flawed indivduals they were rather than hero worship. Wierdly we did this in school on of all figures on Cromwell (Custer was another one) but never actually went into the real crap he did....UK history teaching needs a lot ot be fixed and I had a good History teacher.

Colston was a complete **** who there is no redeeming factor of anything he did in his life that should be venerated.

 

[User1245]

Honestly I appreciate your sentiment I've not seen anyone except my wife since before this started and have been following guidelines pretty rigidly.

However I do take exception at calling people who are protesting against systemic racism 'selfish', I think its absolutely fair to say they needed to find alternative methods to show their anger at what goes on. But to suggest those actions are selfish sorry but I really stuggle with that statement.

The hypothesis that there is systematic racism in the USA is not as widely accepted as you might think. This video summarises some good points:



Edit: Just to be clear I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist. But if we're talking about what to prioritize to uplift black communities in some countries it's probably way lower down the list an most people think.

 

[BiggusLaddus]

Despicable, factual people. Churchill was a wartime hero and that's about it. Well actually only a WW2 hero, his "soldiers" before then were better known for raping and murdering or dying en masse due to his terrible leadership.

All true, but he exists in the public consciousness purely because of his large part in defending the nation from Nazi invasion. So a lot of people in this country are naturally a bit precious about it.

 

[ncurd]

snip

Whats more worthy the deaths and lives of those who have died to a pandemic thats existed for 5 months. Or the deaths and lives of those who expereieneced racial abuse for their entire lives?

I'm not saying there is correct answer here but which is the higher priority is a lot more complex than people just breaking guidelines.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think there is difference between someone like Churchill and Colston. Like it or not Chruchill was a significant contributor in defeating Nazi Germany that will always carry significant weight despite anything else he did. I wish we'd teach our 'heroes' as the deeply flawed indivduals they were rather than hero worship. Wierdly we did this in school on of all figures on Cromwell (Custer was another one) but never actually went into the real crap he did....UK history teaching needs a lot ot be fixed and I had a good History teacher.

Colston was a complete **** who there is no redeeming factor of anything he did in his life that should be venerated.

Whats more worthy the deaths and lives of those who have died to a pandemic thats existed for 5 months. Or the deaths and lives of those who expereieneced racial abuse for their entire lives?

I'm not saying there is correct answer here but which is the higher priority is a lot more complex than people just breaking guidelines.

Don't get me wrong, from a British point of view he deserves a statue, but in reality what made him perfect for defeating the Nazis was that he was a horrendous ******* with no regard for human life who'd rock the boat after decades of soft leadership after David Lloyd George. Right man, right place and right time but his record before was despicable and no one wanted anything to do with him after for good reason.

Saying that, I am not keen on revisionist history. Churchill was a eugenicist which was probably fairly questionable but not damning at the time when he didn't act on it and his work in WWII was sufficient penance for anyone who wasn't the victim of the deaths, murders and rapes that he was responsible for so it's not the statue to take down. Hopefully this and Colston does start a culture of taking down statues in the UK though because you have some rotten ones, I wouldn't be an Irish man if I didn't start with Cromwell in Westminster but walking around parliament Square and seeing Smuts and Peel, whose genocide trumps Cromwell's in my opinion, is probably worse.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm with AB - Churchill was a vile human being.
His efforts during WW2 should absolutely be remembered and he should be honoured for those - but that doesn't mean he can't be criticised for being an absolute **** before and after.

No one should be surprised that a march against racism daubed his statue with "Racist" - it's factually correct, and a pretty tame description of him to be honest.


I've always thought statues of Cromwell are a bit odd - not only because of everything his towards the Irish, but because....we still have a monarchy?

 

[General Melchett]

Not surprised that you can't see the hypocrisy in your post

My post was a frustrated general rant rather than an attack on yours.

The part of your post I disagree with is the apples and oranges line.

To me the people who rushed to beauty spots on mother's day weekend knowing restrictions were coming on the Monday, those who flooded beaches last month and gathered together in groups of thousands this weekend all fall into the same category; selfish pricks.

If that isn't the case then that means I have been a complete mug for strictly following guidance all this time.

Fact check alert!

I just checked and my post dug out by Steve o was made on 5th April. I was not referring to the mothers day weekend but people sitting in parks AFTER lockdown had taken effect on 23 March. At 5th April the instruction was 'Stay at home'. I don't agree with the behaviour of those flocking to beauty spots on mothers day either but perhaps at least get your facts straight. I also don't agree with mass protests taking place at this time but the bottom line is that this didn't happen while the instruction was 'Stay at home' and so it can't be hypocritical.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The hypothesis that there is systematic racism in the USA is not as widely accepted as you might think. This video summarises some good points:



Edit: Just to be clear I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist. But if we're talking about what to prioritize to uplift black communities in some countries it's probably way lower down the list an most people think.

Conveniently ignoring the research that shows a change as little as a name on a CV makes that CV get 1/4 the responses. Also you ignored the fact he made a point of saying that immigrants have a tendency to be harder working and more motivated than your average population. That is true the world over. He compared black immigrants to black natives as evidence that systemic racism didn't exist and yet made no comparison to other races, y'know the whole point of racism? White immigrants to the USA are also wealthier etc than white natives. Does he compare how white immigrants compare to black immigrants? Nope.

Many of the people who implemented, supported and enforced racial segregation are still alive in the USA. Stop and searches of black people far exceed white people, prosecutions far exceed white people, punishment for the same crimes exceed white people so a video comparing black people with other black people hardly is an argument against racism.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Lots of the "greatest" figures throughout history have also got very questionable backgrounds if you look into them too much.
Take ghandi for example. Great pacifist, but also a massive big time racist.
You're gonna struggle to find anyone from pre 2000 say who didn't also believe/do awful things alongside their morally right achievements.

Perspective is important is all I'm saying

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Lots of the "greatest" figures throughout history have also got very questionable backgrounds if you look into them too much.
Take ghandi for example. Great pacifist, but also a massive big time racist.
You're gonna struggle to find anyone from pre 2000 say who didn't also believe/do awful things alongside their morally right achievements.

Perspective is important is all I'm saying

I agree perspective is massively important but that doesn't mean that some statues shouldn't be removed or defaced (although that would require very specific and extreme circumstances that we saw here).

Ghandi is a great example, a statue of him in India should be and probably is almost holy. In Ghana? Well it got what it deserved. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-africa-46552614 (Ignoring the likely pedophilia for this point, Ghandi was likely an odious man)

So I'd say in the case of Churchill, the man deserves a statue in Parliament square. However during a time of worldwide protests against racism it being defaced should be expected and is poignant, it points out that the UK are only 80 years removed from having a eugenicist in power and that things haven't improved enough.

This post isn't meant to be a shot at the UK by the way, we had protests here in Ireland and they received very little coverage and were somewhat belittled. I think our issues with racism are different but no better or worse, I think we excuse racism if we believe it's just ignorance which isn't ok and I also think there's a general distrust of minorities in numerous pockets of the population making Ireland a very difficult place to integrate. I don't think ethnicity affects employment opportunities or treatment from our police as much as elsewhere, but I can say I haven't researched enough to say that for certain.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I know it's not the be all and end all, as proven by Clinton, but the polling trend is looking bad for Trump

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

 

[User1245]

Conveniently ignoring the research that shows a change as little as a name on a CV makes that CV get 1/4 the responses. Also you ignored the fact he made a point of saying that immigrants have a tendency to be harder working and more motivated than your average population. That is true the world over. He compared black immigrants to black natives as evidence that systemic racism didn't exist and yet made no comparison to other races, y'know the whole point of racism? White immigrants to the USA are also wealthier etc than white natives. Does he compare how white immigrants compare to black immigrants? Nope.

Many of the people who implemented, supported and enforced racial segregation are still alive in the USA. Stop and searches of black people far exceed white people, prosecutions far exceed white people, punishment for the same crimes exceed white people so a video comparing black people with other black people hardly is an argument against racism.

I'm conveniently ignoring anything, this is a discussion dimwit. You're assuming I have bad intentions because I don't believe exactly what you say. I don't hold your position on the topic because I've not seen compelling evidence.

Anyway you're off with your assessment because he was comparing 2nd generation immigrants (kids born in the USA from immigrants) to native populations which levels the playing field. They would come through the same 'system' from birth.

Asian immigrants outperform natives of all races in both education and wages so already there's an obvious dent in the 'racist system favouring whites' narrative.

Indeed, the children of Asian immigrants often outperformed all other student populations on standardized tests in secondary school, including the children of native whites. Similar patterns have also been found for other academic indicators, such as grades and graduation, in a number of data sets. Again, these patterns tend to be somewhat stronger and more consistent for youth from Asian immigrant families.

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5555844/

So it's not as clear cut as people are making it out to be.

 

[User1245]

Fact check alert!

I just checked and my post dug out by Steve o was made on 5th April. I was not referring to the mothers day weekend but people sitting in parks AFTER lockdown had taken effect on 23 March. At 5th April the instruction was 'Stay at home'. I don't agree with the behaviour of those flocking to beauty spots on mothers day either but perhaps at least get your facts straight. I also don't agree with mass protests taking place at this time but the bottom line is that this didn't happen while the instruction was 'Stay at home' and so it can't be hypocritical.

Solved the case! Lol

Both sets of instances have people who are breaking the guidelines set in place at the time. It's not rocket science.

There's no sport or concerts currently allowed, right?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'm conveniently ignoring anything, this is a discussion dimwit. You're assuming I have bad intentions because I don't believe exactly what you say. I don't hold your position on the topic because I've not seen compelling evidence.

Anyway you're off with your assessment because he was comparing 2nd generation immigrants (kids born in the USA from immigrants) to native populations which levels the playing field. They would come through the same 'system' from birth.

Asian immigrants outperform natives of all races in both education and wages so already there's an obvious dent in the 'racist system favouring whites' narrative.

Indeed, the children of Asian immigrants often outperformed all other student populations on standardized tests in secondary school, including the children of native whites. Similar patterns have also been found for other academic indicators, such as grades and graduation, in a number of data sets. Again, these patterns tend to be somewhat stronger and more consistent for youth from Asian immigrant families.

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5555844/

So it's not as clear cut as people are making it out to be.

No, I'm assuming you have bad intentions because of how horrendously you are cherry picking whilst doing nothing to address the remaining issues.

It levels the playing field a bit but ultimately they were still from a breed of person that had a very different attitude. Again you don't address the fact he compared 1 black population to another rather than comparing them to a comparable white population.

Asians have a very different culture and there is a world of difference between "racist system favouring whites" and "racist system systemically suppressing blacks". I pity you if you can't see the difference. There are only 2 conclusions you can draw from black people being far behind, that the system is racist and holding them down or they are ******* it all up themselves. Considering you are arguing the system isn't racist, that means you lie more on the side of black people just messing it up. Perhaps you would like to enlighten us as to why you take this stance? What is it about black people that means they perform so much worse?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Solved the case! Lol

Both sets of instances have people who are breaking the guidelines set in place at the time. It's not rocket science.

There's no sport or concerts currently allowed, right?

Are you equating the social value of protesting racism to that of having cans in the park? Even as a massive advocate of the second I just don't agree.

 

[User1245]

No, I'm assuming you have bad intentions because of how horrendously you are cherry picking whilst doing nothing to address the remaining issues.

It levels the playing field a bit but ultimately they were still from a breed of person that had a very different attitude. Again you don't address the fact he compared 1 black population to another rather than comparing them to a comparable white population.

Asians have a very different culture and there is a world of difference between "racist system favouring whites" and "racist system systemically suppressing blacks". I pity you if you can't see the difference. There are only 2 conclusions you can draw from black people being far behind, that the system is racist and holding them down or they are ******* it all up themselves. Considering you are arguing the system isn't racist, that means you lie more on the side of black people just messing it up. Perhaps you would like to enlighten us as to why you take this stance? What is it about black people that means they perform so much worse?

One of the best video I've found about the issue is Larry Elder's interview with Dave Rubin. What's interesting about this interview is that it was almost a full year before Trump was elected.

I watched it again to find the relevant part for you which is about minute 22 to about 35:

From minute 35 onwards it still touches on the issue here and there but it's not the main focus.

 

[Al Bangor]