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TRF_Olyy

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Or do you mean Tory dissenters?
Tory dissenters, I mean

Tory's have such a margin you'd need a solid number voting against for it to make a difference - a number of people saying they're against it but not enough to threaten the whip being removed won't be enough
 

ncurd

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Tory dissenters, I mean

Tory's have such a margin you'd need a solid number voting against for it to make a difference - a number of people saying they're against it but not enough to threaten the whip being removed won't be enough
TBF this is opening salvos and first reading? The Lord's is the real battle on this one but this is going through because this government doubles down on **** decisions.
 

Reiser99

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Its a sport... See no reason why it should be any different, despite the obvious attempts by Labour on the socials to stir up anger about it

For me that's not the issue. It's that they needed to have a whole meeting just for it which was then cancelled to avoid any objections. Complete waste of time and shows they haven't got their priorities right.
 

noah_jo

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For me that's not the issue. It's that they needed to have a whole meeting just for it which was then cancelled to avoid any objections. Complete waste of time and shows they haven't got their priorities right.
Oh yeah agree with that
 

Tallshort

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Its a sport... See no reason why it should be any different, despite the obvious attempts by Labour on the socials to stir up anger about it
Duck shooting next Thursday all sorted then
 

ncurd

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Second reading passes 340 votes to 263, still has to get through lords and commitee stages but looks like no Tory spine.l to put up faintist resistance.

You know when I bitch and whine how 43.6% of the people put a government in so much control they can't get even barest with of scrutiny. This is why.
 

Gavin

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Second reading passes 340 votes to 263, still has to get through lords and commitee stages but looks like no Tory spine.l to put up faintist resistance.

You know when I bitch and whine how 43.6% of the people put a government in so much control they can't get even barest with of scrutiny. This is why.

Hard border time in Ireland?

I'm pretty sure the EU said they'd stop negotiating if the bill went through.
 

ncurd

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Hard border time in Ireland?

I'm pretty sure the EU said they'd stop negotiating if the bill went through.
As with all things the reality is a bit more complex than the headlines. For one the bill is a ways of royal assent and government aren't fast tracking it through. There are suggestions they don't give a damn about passing it until December 31st. So by then both sides would of walked away.


There is also apprently legitimate legal quandary apparently is we break the law on royal assent or whether we break them when ministers use the powers within it.

I suspect 99% of this bill is getting the base riled up and a negotiating tactic. Exactly what they are trying to get from the EU in return I'm unsure because the publically stated reasons have proven to be ********.


Despite the fears of no deal, I still expect to see a deal of some sort. It will likely be some sort of extended transition period (but not called that) with some of the stuff they've agreed on set in stone and applied but give them time on the more hairy stuff.
 

ncurd

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Eventually I think we'll end up with a Canada/Norway mixed model and the real question will be why did we have to go through all that pain when we could of just done Norway out the gate like the Leave parties said they wanted the the time.

You'll get some ******** about Norway saying we couldn't join but that never stopped the exact same deal being made not just being part of that block.
 

Tallshort

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Eventually I think we'll end up with a Canada/Norway mixed model and the real question will be why did we have to go through all that pain when we could of just done Norway out the gate like the Leave parties said they wanted the the time.

You'll get some ******** about Norway saying we couldn't join but that never stopped the exact same deal being made not just being part of that block.
You mean why couldn't we have just signed up to a Norway agreement 3 years ago? That's a bloody good question
 

ncurd

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You mean why couldn't we have just signed up to a Norway agreement 3 years ago? That's a bloody good question
Well the simple answer is we would of had to sign up for freedom of movement but it absolutely would of sailed through parliament as there is no way Labour could of resisted it (or any other party really you'd have got people breaking whips but nothing cause actual blockage). It was only when May declared she was going down a really break off route did the entire thing become a colossal mess, 48% of the country didn't want this at all and were being dragged to extreme route. And hardline Brexiteers are essentially a death cult that will only accept no deal and never buying or selling anything from Europe ever again you only have to watch them in the commons.

As for freedom of movement I do think when this all shake out we'll essentially have it with bureaucracy attached similar to applying for entry to America or Canada. You'll have to pay for the privileged they'll be a database and people to enforce your doing what you said and government will claim this gives them control but reality is they'll make as much effort as applying controls as they did allowed and freedom of movement (barely any).
 

ragerancher

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Well the simple answer is we would of had to sign up for freedom of movement but it absolutely would of sailed through parliament as there is no way Labour could of resisted it (or any other party really you'd have got people breaking whips but nothing cause actual blockage). It was only when May declared she was going down a really break off route did the entire thing become a colossal mess, 48% of the country didn't want this at all and were being dragged to extreme route. And hardline Brexiteers are essentially a death cult that will only accept no deal and never buying or selling anything from Europe ever again you only have to watch them in the commons.

As for freedom of movement I do think when this all shake out we'll essentially have it with bureaucracy attached similar to applying for entry to America or Canada. You'll have to pay for the privileged they'll be a database and people to enforce your doing what you said and government will claim this gives them control but reality is they'll make as much effort as applying controls as they did allowed and freedom of movement (barely any).

Well considering at it's very core Brexit was about stopping Johnny foreigner from setting foot on our blessed land and how the EU free movement was portrayed as the cause of our great foreign invasion, Brexit was always going to be overwhelmingly linked with that among Brexiters. Free movement was never going to survive. That and fishing for **** knows what reason. Blast it will have our freedom and fish or we will have death, by jove we will!
 

noah_jo

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Well considering at it's very core Brexit was about stopping Johnny foreigner from setting foot on our blessed land and how the EU free movement was portrayed as the cause of our great foreign invasion, Brexit was always going to be overwhelmingly linked with that among Brexiters. Free movement was never going to survive. That and fishing for **** knows what reason. Blast it will have our freedom and fish or we will have death, by jove we will!
That's part of it for some people but that's a really poor take...
As someone who backed remain at the time even I could see that wasn't the case.

Unfortunately that is a fairly widely held view amongst remainers too this day, which is probably a large part of the reason that it has been so hard to find middle ground. If you ignore the merits of the genuine arguments for Brexit and leave it at xenophobia then there's no real discussion to be had.
 

TRF_Olyy

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If you ignore the merits of the genuine arguments for Brexit
What are they, though?
Every time I see someone give a reason why it's a good thing it's instantly proven wrong and shown to be worse for that reason.
 

ncurd

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Hate to say it but I'm still wildly unconvinced there are any merits to Brexit at least I've not heard a convincing arguement for it. The closest is British people making British laws but that's mainly rhetoric and we wanted something like 95% of the laws imposed on us. It wasn't like it was a great imposition.
 

ncurd

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Unelected bureaucrats - Not really true mainly reffering to what is the EU civil service who write up the legisation agreed by the commisioners (appointed by elected governments can be cabinet members for a particular area) and then voted upon by an elected body.

Freedom of movement - We didn't apply any controls that were within our power so never sort to restrict it. In fact we still don't now, outside of EU immgiration has vastly increased as companies didn't get as many applicants from inside as they us to.

Fisheries - Well we actually can't be arsed over that one and most of the rules are about making sure the fishermen don't fish themselves out of existence in 20 years time.

European Court of Human Rights - Not part of EU

We can do our trade deals! - Zero evidence we couldn't get better ones from within the EU and there is no feasible way to think we would.

Spend money on our own - yes we put more money than we get out but thats just kinda how these things work. Same with taxation people at the top put more in than they get out. the idea being a trading block where we don't have worry red tape in trade makes us richer and it certainly appeared to work.


Now if were talking about the feelings of being left behind or that the government prioritises the EU over everyday people. Thats far more to do with existentialism and capitalism than any meaningful that can attributed to a good reason to break away from the EU.
 

ragerancher

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That's part of it for some people but that's a really poor take...
As someone who backed remain at the time even I could see that wasn't the case.

Unfortunately that is a fairly widely held view amongst remainers too this day, which is probably a large part of the reason that it has been so hard to find middle ground. If you ignore the merits of the genuine arguments for Brexit and leave it at xenophobia then there's no real discussion to be had.
Sorry but when actual Brexiters were polled about the reason for voting for Brexit, stopping immigration ranked higher than all the other reasons combined so yeah, I'd say it is a pretty representative summary of the Brexit position. There are other reasons but that was by quite some way the single dominant issue.

As others have pointed out, the alternative reasons given were often shown to be outright wrong, the most common situation being people blaming the EU for the actions of our government (see what the SNP do all the time with the UK, although with a bit more merit). Eg I was speaking to a Brexit supporting colleague who was simultaneously arguing that the EU had ridiculous stringent regulations regarding animal welfare (they don't) and then when it was explained they don't, immediately flipped to say the EU nations must then have had awful animal welfare and we couldn't trust produce from their farms. When it was pointed out that we were the ones who had had mad cow disease, foot and mouth and generally one of the worst records of animal illness in the EU, just flipped argument again. It literally is a case of making up reasons on the spot and when a large chunk of it is boiled down to the root problem, it more often than not is "I don't like foreign things".

We talk about trading with the rest of the world, exports only. How many Brexiters want to import from the rest of the world? They don't. It's getting back to a "buy British" insular mentality. That mentality is what contributed in large part to the complete collapse of British manufacturing as we cranked out complete crap convinced we had a captive market, slagging off foreign goods and assured of our own superiority. I can guarantee it will not be long before that rears it's head again post-Brexit.
 
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ncurd

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EU Army - Not happening and we have veto.

We're going to lose the veto - Lies and we can veto loosing the veto.

Euro - Dave Cameron through veto showed we can't help the Eurozone against our will.

Turkey is going to join the EU imminently - It meets one criteria out of 31
 
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